Burning man is dead

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:03 am

It's not dead. just growing and time for the next step in growing. The experiment should take over the world to keep world peace stable. (what's left of it anyway.)

They should just have a Burningman week where BM happens all over the world at the same time and Broadcasted at the same time to BM in the desert Via IPV6. (internet II High Def.)

waltsnipe · Post by **waltsnipe** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:30 am

1) limit tickets to 25,000, with a concurrent method to avoid rampant scalping. In the past several years, there seems to be an exponential increase in overt yahooism after that figure is reached. Plus, over that number makes the playa feel really crowded and stresses the infrastructure (including highways to get in/out).

2) (as Badger said on another thread) You have to have your ticket EARLY to attend. I'm thinking you should have to have it by March. If you can't make that commitment, then you can't go. Sure, there will be hard-luck stories that will prevent a few good people from going, but we're talking emergency triage here. NO GATE TICKET SALES, and close the gates to new entries on Tues. or Wed. It takes being there a week to become a community together.

3) Make a theme camp really BE a theme camp. It was disturbing this year that the Porta-Pottie situation was so bad by the FIRST SUNDAY that Johnny-On-The-Spot was already threatening to pull out. This means that it was the theme camp people allowed in early who created that situation. What does this mean? Well, it may mean that a lot of people are just registering as "theme camps" to get in early and start the party earlier on prime real estate. I saw camp after camp in the theme camp spaces that seemed to be no more than shade for them to drink in. I know people feel there are too many rules already, but how about enforcing what we already have? The BM website has a lot of requirements for what a theme camp should be......visual elements, interactivity, etc., and there were many camps this year that didn't do those things. It is not a good barometer for the playa ethic that our Porta-Potties were trashed before the general population was let in......and this expands what a "yahoo" really is. I don't know....maybe "fake" theme camps attract more of those types of people who trash the Porta-Potties through their selfish behavior.....maybe the commitment and work of doing a "real" theme camp would put these people off OR better yet inspire them to embrace LNT, non-selfish behavior and all the other elements of the BM ethic.

4) No sales at center camp beyond ice. Selling coffee, tea, etc. (as pointed out earlier in this thread) really cuts against the "radical self-reliance"/non-commercial elements of BM that we all care so deeply about. On the other hand, ice is something you can't really keep around for a week no matter how self-reliant you are.

Just my thoughts, after witnessing more yahoo behavior this year than in years past,

waltsnipe, SCARAB

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:48 am

waltsnipe wrote:1) limit tickets to 25,000, with a concurrent method to avoid rampant scalping.
2) (as Badger said on another thread) You have to have your ticket EARLY to attend. I'm thinking you should have to have it by March.

3) Make a theme camp really BE a theme camp. .........

Blah Blah blah blah blah.

Here's an Idea.......Why not have it as "The Hamptons Man"

?

So far what I see.....IMHO is what is killing Burningman.

I dont mean to degenerate this situation I'm about to use as an example but on the "NEW lead on '04 assault"
Dr. LRB as always put it all in proper perspective:

Rabbi Dali Rick wrote:
Flackmaster wrote: i just want to know that the system and the community works!
I guess you got you're answer. It is funny and a little of a side note, that as a result of you're dismal meeting with this guy has changed his life far beyound burning man. You have markedly changed this man for the good (hopefully) his decision to turn himself in was a direct action stemming from that change. I myself think it was a cry for help and finaly he saw the opportunity to sieze it. Life, it's weird like that, go figure.

you're bestest pal,
the rebbi

Folks, IMHO it's about community and what others can positively take away from the event that will change theirs and others lives for the better. I cannot see how this can continue by limiting the event in the previously posted suggestions in this thread.
I do see however an opportunity for the concept of Burningman to grow "Beyond believe" and teach many, the ways of a better way of thinking using many mediums.

shall this opportunity pass the org/community by?

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:49 am

Sorry about how I quoted the waltsnipe but I hope you get the Idea.

jimbobby · Post by **jimbobby** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:10 am

Move it to monday

the symbolic gesture of moving a symbolic event will not help the problems you percieve

the folks you are showing disdain for will show up en-masse whenever and however they like. Personally, I would hate to witness all that super-charged, semi-violent, chaotic, testosterone energy that the burn engenders lingering throughout the rest of my week.

If you lock the gates on tuesday the vibe will still change over the course of the week. The 'experiment in temporary community' will degenerate into an experiment in heat exhaustion, sleep deprivation, dehydration and malnutrition no matter who is on the playa. To wit, my best friend and I, both heavy participators and vets, got into a shouting match over whether or not he migrated my pudding into his cooler or the fridge or his mouth on Saturday. (we laughed a lot and drank beer afterwards though.)

Kiba · Post by **Kiba** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:46 am

LIMIT TICKET SALES? I think a point has been overlooked somewhere.

I realize everyone has their differences with some aspect of BM. It's GOING to happen. Just about every aspect of BM is there because someone wanted/needed/put it there. That includes the MOOP and all that.

Since I'm a little pissed, I'll say it.

How about we limit Burning Man to the people who DON'T want to limit Burning Man? Would that work? COME ONE PPL! The idea is inclusion not exclusion.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:57 am

Kiba wrote: How about we limit Burning Man to the people who DON'T want to limit Burning Man? Would that work? COME ONE PPL! The idea is inclusion not exclusion.

I've said this since day one on the new eplaya.

I totally agree.

waltsnipe · Post by **waltsnipe** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:22 am

So unlimited ticket sales, huh?........is any number too high, in your opinion?

kikidelosfeliz · Post by **kikidelosfeliz** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:44 pm

And I thought all that yummy "super-charged chaotic testosterone energy" was the playa gods personal gift to me! Fireworks and all! You noticed it too?

Yay DVD burner! Soak it up, beam it out, change the world!

Kiba · Post by **Kiba** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:30 pm

Yes, unlimited ticket sales works for me. The more the merrier. If you disagree, you're welcome to make your own 'exclusive' tent and have fun being exclusive. Or you could avoid BM altogether. Or you could try and enjoy those things you don't enjoy. You might be surprised.

midgetsonparade · Post by **midgetsonparade** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:17 am

Sounds more like everyone wants to turn Burning Man into an exclusive club. Who fucking cares if yahoos are there! They have just as much of a right to be there just like you cool eplayans do.

I don't understand why it nothers some poeple so much! I think JezebelinHell put it best:
That being said, more people I don't feel bad about making fun of equals more fun times for me. So long as they're not in my camp. All in all, I only met a few yahoos last year (although I know there was an abundance), and aside from the moop, all they really did was amuse me and act as a sort of verbal punching bag.

Get over it! Have fun instead of just bitching.

waltsnipe · Post by **waltsnipe** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:31 am

It has nothing to do with exclusivity or "coolness"......it's the simple fact that no event can sustain unlimited growth. In fact, name anything that can take unlimited growth. All resources have their limits, and once those limits are reached then certain problems grow exponentially. Your posturing on the subject doesn't address the real, serious issues involved.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:47 am

I have thought regarding limited ticket sales.

Say there is a limit of 25,000 tickets and this limit is reached before the event (becuase now that people know tickets are limited, they don't wait o long to purchase them).

What about reselling tickets? I know now there is an "unspoken ethic" that tickets are resold at falce value plus perhaps a shipping charge.

What happens when the supply and demand model kicks in: demand reamins the same but supply is now diminished? Accoding to the economic model, prices rise.

I think there would be a lot more incidents of scalping and selling tickets to the highest bidders if tickets were limited.

waltsnipe · Post by **waltsnipe** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:24 pm

I agree the potential scalping would be a concern if ticket sales were limited. The Org. could take steps to curtail it at the point of sale, but couldn't do much at the point of re-sale. Hopefully the former would cut down on problems at the latter (ie. one person couldn't buy a bunch of tickets from the Org).

If you limited sales to 25,000, minimized scalping, and sold all tickets by March, then theoretically you'd have the playa filled with people willing to make the commitment well in advance.....and (so the theory goes, anway) that would cut down on rampant yahoo-ism. Of course, some on this thread seem to think there is no yahoo problem. I don't think that's the majority view, though, especially after this year....

Kiba · Post by **Kiba** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:56 pm

That sounds reasonable,... until you factor logic in.

First off, BM grew from last year by about 4,500 people. That's not 'unlimited', that's a growth of about 1.5%. Wowsers. Besides, every year BM gets more money from increased ticket sales with which to fund the event. The population is not the ONLY thing that grows.
Second of all, a lack of available tickets isn't going to prevent more than 25,000 from attending, it's going to make the scalpers, ticket forgers, and ppl who sneak in more creative and audacious in their attempt to make their way there.
Thirdly, I know of alot of good minded, open, and effectionate burners who didn't purchase their tickets until the last minute. Not saying that's the norm, but just because you're limiting ticket sales doesn't mean that 'non-burning minded people' aren't going to buy their tickets early.
Forth point is on the idea of yahoos. To call someone a yahoo is to dismiss their actions, mentality, and intentions as being, if not beneath your own, then definitely not worth consideration. It is precisely this line of thinking that leads to the polarization of action at BM, and the greater disregard of the opinions of others. From what I've learned THAT is against Burning Man, not the people themselves.
Five. Burning Man is a free society. If you need evidence of this, look at all the naked people. I'm sure there were a great deal who think that they are yahoos. Some may be doing it for attention, some self expression, whatever the reason, it's their right. That's (part of) what BM is about.
Six. It has everything to do with exclusivity (I never said coolness,... talk to Freud). For you to say
"If you limited sales to 25,000, minimized scalping, and sold all tickets by March, then theoretically you'd have the playa filled with people willing to make the commitment well in advance.....and that would cut down on rampant yahoo-ism."
Define rampant yahoo-ism. Do you mean "People having fun in a manner not consistant with what you think they should be doing?", or do you mean "People openly and intently avoiding the central concept of BM and/or rules"? If you mean the former, than you are one who excludes for your own benefit, and my earlier comment stands, make your own tent. If you mean the latter, well those aren't yahoos, they're ignorant. It is the responsibility of ALL burners to try and educate those people. Now, this act might detract from your OWN burning man experience, but boo f-ing hoo. It's called radical self reliance, which includes (but is not limited to) addressing aspects you deem to be detrimental to the experience in a respecful manner, not kicking them out the door for not 'getting' what you 'get'.
Seven is rhetorical. AS I was walking back to tent at sunset on the night of the burn, I overheard someone saying "last year alot of tents and cars were broken into and stolen from". This made me sad, but it didn't prevent me from locking my car and tent before I went out, nor advising my campmates to do the same. This is another aspect of radical self-reliance.

Finally, no matter how you try and pretty your words up you're trying to excuse exclusivity at BM and to my knowledge (though I could be mistaken), you're missing the point. So come for the party, stay so you can watch the 'yahoos', and then return home so you can bitch about the 'yahoos' from the safety and comfort of your own home, instead of addressing the problems as you see them.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:01 pm

Kiba wrote:That sounds reasonable,... until you factor logic in.

First off, BM grew from last year by about 4,500 people. That's not 'unlimited', that's a growth of about 1.5%.

Kiba ... go plonk your math teacher right this minute. Several times. Now one more from me. There ya go ... nice job.

Sheesh ... what passes for teachers these days.

Thats 15% not 1.5%, Kiba.

Kiba · Post by **Kiba** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:06 pm

Oh, you're right. My bad. As I stated however, that's still an increase in revenue by an equal 15%

Kiba · Post by **Kiba** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:15 pm

One other quick point. If (and likely when) BM grows too large to effectively experience (though I still question that concept), I will be more than happy to organize a regional event of a smaller scale so that burners and 'yahoos' alike can come and do whatever it is they want to do on a smaller scale. Until then, I'll see you (by you I mean everyone who goes) at Black Rock, or wherever it's held.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:33 pm

Kiba wrote:That sounds reasonable,... until you factor logic in.

First off, BM grew from last year by about 4,500 people. That's not 'unlimited', that's a growth of about 1.5%.

By my math (depending on whether we compare it to last year's or this year's population)
4500/30000=x/100
300x = 4500
x = 4500/300 = 15%

or

4500/35000 = x/100
350x = 4500
x = 4500/350 = ~13%

I'm a notorius misplacer of decimal points, but 1.5 seems way too small.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:34 pm

dang--beat to the punch

waltsnipe · Post by **waltsnipe** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:17 pm

Still sounds like cheap apologism for fucked-up behavior. If those words are too "prettied up" for you, then I'll try some shorter ones:

Some people are fucking chuckleheads and aren't going to be "educated" out of it.

It's hard to imagine the Porta-Pottie message being hit any harder than it was this year. All us DJs on Radio Electra mentioned it constantly. Almost all the PSAs on BMIR stressed it (ad nauseum, no pun intended). The Survival Guide, in print and on-line, made a big deal out of it. I saw a wonderful Org. volunteer (ranger?) haranguing the crowd in front of the Porta-Potties by our camp (6:30/Earth) on several ocassions. Signs were posted on them. After all that, I STILL saw beer cans, gum wrappers, etc.etc.etc. in the Porta-Potties all week. People know not to do that at a concert in their home towns, and they were hit over the head with the message endlessly before and during Burning Man, and yet some people insisted on doing it anyway. Why don't we lock you in a closet with one of these socially-minded souls for a few hours and see if you can "educate" them. While you're at it, have a heart-felt conversation with the gropers, the line-cutters, the "nice tits, bitch" yellers, the violent thugs, and playa shitters. What you don't seem to get amidst all your self-righteous posturing is that most of the fucked up behavior on the playa is also NOT ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR ANYWHERE ELSE! It's not a matter of "education." If these people have been acting like selfish animals in their hometowns for 20 or 30 years, do you think you or I can rehabilitate them? Has that really been how you've spent your playa hours in years past? I seriously doubt it. And I doubt you will in the future, for all your smugness.

Of course educating newbies is a shared responsibility for the entire veteran community. Of course we should try in those instances where it seems fruitful. But do you really think it's a meaningful use of our time to have a little heart-to-heart with the guy who beat the shit out of another guy to steal his bike?.....the guy who dumps his beercan in the shitter after hearing all week how important it is not to? There is a segment of the population at large that go through life as selfish creatures and act like that at home, and we're getting more of them bringing that behavior to the playa. Do I want them to stay the fuck away from the playa? Yeah, I do. Is this elitist? No, it's not....in fact, it's trying to preserve the Burning Man ethic. We'll help those we can change, and those we can't don't need to be there fucking up our week together every August.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:35 pm

Its kind of a shame but I never listened to any radio when I was there. Okay, so how to limit the population to cool people yet not use random exclusion by financial means or date of arrival .... hmmm

How about ....

Get serious with regional and local events. Get plugged in to mailing lists, etc. Make BRC an invitation only city and stop selling tickets to the general public. Get a ticket to BRC like you get a get a gmail account. You are in a local group, you get X "vouchers" that can be exchanged for tickets. Use what you want, then use the remaining to send to others that might express interest in going and they use them. At some cutoff date, unused vouchers are invalidated. More vouchers can be created and sent out as needed. You arent selling tickets ... you are gifting vouchers that can be used to buy tickets.

You want to go to burning man, no problem, get involved with a local group. They will see that you get your voucher(s). That allows anyone that really wants to go to Burning Man to have a chance to go ... but keeps out the random people that just show up at the gate with their video camera. This would limit the population to people that want to be community with the others.

There will be a few people that buy tickets and resell them. Easy enough to spot because the ticket numbers would be traceable directly to the vouchers that were used to purchase them. IF some buttwad gets thrown out, they can tell by looking at the ticket number that the original voucher was issued to me ... and I might get an email asking me about it ... and I might not get as many vouchers next year if things aren't right.

I dunno ... kind of hard to enforce but it feels like it goes in the right direction. Let it grow but let it grow by inclusion by the community rather than just by the number of people that can afford a ticket and show up.

My experiance that anything gifted will eventually be abused to death. Remember when just about any email server on the Internet would relay mail?

Kiba · Post by **Kiba** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:53 pm

Alright. You think they should limit tickets, I say 'no, f- that'. We have our reasons and think eachother's are invalid. See you at Burning Man. ^_^

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:13 pm

I am not saying to limit tickets. I am saying that in order to BUY one you have to get it from a regional or local group. I didn't say that any limit be placed on numbers. It is a quality and not quantity thing. Also, if the event is an invitation only private event (with 35,000 of Larry's best friends attending) I think some of the rules might change WRT local law enforcement. I think, but I am not certain, that there are some slightly different rules when you have an event open to the general public.

What I am talking about is something like ... hey, our local groups and local groups like it all around the world are going to have a camping trip for a week this summer. Who wants to go?

Now lets say I am Joe Fucktard. I really want to go to burningman because I hear it is really cool and there are lots of nekid bitches I can post pictures of on my website and stuff. I can't just get a ticket and show up in my RV. I have to actually meet some people and show my face and stuff. If I want to go again next year, I have to make sure my fucktardiness is kept in check or else I wont be invited back.

Maybe they could do a hybrid ... sell tickets through the local/regional groups at one price, and to the general public at a higher price. I dont exactly know the right answer but there must be some way to make it better without excluding people that want to go yet discourage the buttwads from going.

Kiba · Post by **Kiba** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:43 pm

Apologies. By 'you' I meant 'waltsnipe'. Your regional idea is sound, but makes it difficult for individuals to get involved with BM. Before BM I didn't often 'do' anything without friends because I wanted others to experience what I do. I've seen the error of my ways, at BM, and I only object out of interest for (technically myself but really) other formerly like-minded individuals who don't have a BM bound group to accompany.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:13 pm

Hi, Kiba

Well, it MIGHT make it hard for an individual to get involved but I would hope they would make it easy. You go to the BM website, find the regional contact for where you are, join their group. When tickets become available, you look in your email one day and find that you are offered X vouchers. You go to your friends, see how many want to go, and either send them the voucher codes so they can purchase the tickets or you get the money from them and purchase them yourself Easy. All your friends get to go!

What prevents a group of yahoos from doing the same thing? Nothing, really, except over the course of the time you are interaction with your regional group, they will get a pretty good idea of who the yahoos are. Exclusion is going to be hard, but the point is that there will be some community bonding going on before you get there. Hey, keep selling tickets to the general public too ... but maybe for a LOT more money?

Regional BM members get theirs for $150 and the general public pays $350 or something. Exclude nobody.

DVD Burner · Post by **DVD Burner** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:19 pm

You know something, After sitting on the sidelines here for awhile, I think you guys just may be on to something here.

Keep going. You may just come up with an intersting concept.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:26 pm

Yeah, nothing sounds exactly right yet ... but something feels right about that general direction. I don't want to sanctify tourism, but sticking one's head in the sand and pretending there isnt any tourism at BRC wont help either. Take advantage of it and at the same time, try to reduce it from a couple of different angles. Make it a little more difficult, but not impossible to do financially, and try to educate and include them in the community in order to make them want to come earlier, stay longer, and participate at a different level.

chineseobelisk · Post by **chineseobelisk** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:34 pm

One of the things that inspires me the most about BM is the temporal and temporary nature of it, giving me some of the best reasons to create that I have ever found. In keeping with that essence, it seems appropriate to allow evolution to be part of its changing nature. I know it has been different in the past but clinging to an ideal seems sort of defeatist and in the grand scheme of things it may evolve into something even more grand or it may evolve itself into nothing but a cherished memory; something to tell the grandkids about. I also think it is unfair (and somewhat, well no, absolutely elitist) to discount people on the grounds of their apparent participation. Who is to say that one of those redneck gawkers or frat-boys whom you (collective) are so ready to single out, isn't going to go home and have a mold breaking revelation, only to return next year with some example of human creativity that will rock everyones world?

JezebelinHell · Post by **JezebelinHell** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:58 pm

How much do you think those vouchers would go for on ebay?

Burning man is dead

a modest proposal

Re: a modest proposal

every resource has it limits

no facile solutions