Bonnarude

[junglesmacks]

No, but on a (slightly) more serious note..

I can understand the fear and disdain that some of you and other burners have for this event being publicly morphed into (yet another) commercialized festival that exists solely for the consumption/spectating animal in society. It's understandable. While I've only been burning for now 4 years, I can only imagine what it's like for some of you that have been here since the earlier days and seeing the changes taking place. I can understand that and agree with it. I without reservation feel that we need to guard and protect the sanctity and principles of Burning Man and it's something that I actively participate in.

We do need to publicly and privately draw a distinction between them.

What's interesting to me though and admittedly disheartening is the way that such events are written off with such vitrol.. as if there is no redeeming value or they're simply a gathering of consuming idiots. One person even going so far as:

When I go to a show, I prepare nothing. I consume the performance like a tasty burrito, enjoying the immediacy of the experience, but add nothing to the plate. I take it home, digest it, and it slowly turns into a nice poo in my brain, flushed away to be replaced by something else.

Could you not say this about attending an orchestral performance? So.. because I went to go see the Honolulu Symphony a few months back.. that makes it poo in my brain and me nothing but a consumer? If you're going to put it that way.. that hell, sign me up. With that logic, you're saying that anything in life that you are "consuming".. also known as "sitting and enjoying without being a participant of".. is nothing but poo. I feel that there is a time and a place for everything. I do enjoy watching a good band. I like to go to a killer IMAX 3D movie now and again. I like observing and appreciating. Does that make it wrong?

To me.. again.. everything is what you make of it. I've seen plenty, plenty frat boys and MOOPing idiots at Burning Man. Hell.. go to the man right after it burns and everyone clears. It looks JUST like any other festival with trash all over the ground.

I say stand your ground and fight the good fight in your own every day actions in your own every day life.. yes.. but simply saying something like:

Those fests are like communism or something bad like that

I dont think they have a place ...whether they are enjoyable or not they dont represent anything i enjoy in terms of corporate power... general behavior and intent of people there....

..that's just plain ignorance and a sentiment that I'm very, very sorry to hear any active member of this community say.

[lemur]

ignorance my ass.


take a stand or not ?

i will!! unless theres some big changes those big fests dont have a place and shouldnt have a place.... i dont care how much ya enjoy them.. if thats freedom it aint the kind i want to pass on to the next generation

[lemur]

its not like a 'here is burning man and here are the values i think important' in one corner and 'here is the rest of the world and the things i let pass as OK' in another.

i want all the horrible stupid bullshit that goes on with big sponsored corp events to stop. whats so ignorant about that ?


fuck them and their moneyed bullshit turning everything in to a fuckin product

fuck em!


whats so ignorant about saying 'YEAH!! I WANT THE VALUES THAT MANY OF US AGREE UPON TO BE APPLIED EVERYWHERE.. AND I DONT THINK PLACES THAT DONT MATCH THE VALUES I PRIZE SHOULD GO UNCHANGED'


get some BALLS junglesmuckers

yeah, you went to bonaroo you had a BANGIN time.. but that shit has gotta change.

[Nipple]

the West should burn in hell because you send us yoga practicing, granola crunching, VW driving, Apple using hippies.

What the hell, man?! What did I ever do to you?

-Sent from my iPhone

[lucky420]

So how you all feel about the juggalos and their gathering

Hey Nip, nice to see you!

[Roberto Dobbisano]

"Hell yeah i sell it, but i never touch the shit myself"...


drugs, music, religion......what chu need man, what chu want?



product is product.


yeah, i push product...but i know the difference between the two worlds and this is why i fight so vehemently to keep them apart.

you're treading on sacred dust here. BM is Art, not Product. It is what we make it, not what we've been sold.

like i said, i dont go to concerts or festivals, i work at them....it's the difference between being a sheep and being a sheep-dog or a wolf...

everyone should thank Their lucky stars i decided the sheep dog route, because i would make a helluva wolf if i wanted to.

either way, i have no desire to be fleeced.

[lemur]

juggalos !! those are way more burning man than lollapalooza.. from the pictures ive seen.. its almost like juggalo gathering is like what burning man would be if selling stuff and mooping was allowed but no corp sponsorships were

anyways! yeah! this is 4th of july.. and america.. we love freedom and its a burning man forum so all this radical inclusion stuff

but even in our own little community with its silly radical inclusion idea has some bounds.. you arent radically included if you want to be a corporate sponsor whore running your AT&T CINNABON STAGE featuring SKRILLEX and METALLICA selling merch and $8 bottles of water (of course the 'water sponsor' gets the exclusive contract)

fuck that shit. its stupid and doesnt belong.. some ppls might say 'they need corp sponsors to run the events!!!' ...s0oo.. i guess some are of the end justifying the means mindset...


the entertainment itself isnt really a concern of mine....


whether it be a jazz festival for free in chicago or bannaroo pay to get in camping festival ..or a 2 day fest like lollapalooza in the downtown part of a major city....the amount of corp/multinational power and branding and BS applied to these things is just insane.. and i dont like it ..and i would wish it away i could

they are on my shitlist even before we begin to consider the ways of many of the people who show up and do silly/stupid things.. (in part allowed by the bullcrap environment they are surrounded by)


this is america! 4th of july!! i think we should celebrate our freedom by freeing our art and entertainment from huge corporate sponsors who dont give a crap about art or our culture ..they want the moneys!

[Simon of the Playa]

as much as i hate to admit it, lemur is 100% correct

it's all about the benjamins.


they dont care what yer swillin, or what you're chewing on, or what crap you're currently listening to, they just care that you payed for it.

period. the end.

hey, we all gotta make a living, and entertainment for an ever increasing pool of leisure dollars is big fucking bucks.

if there is blood in the water, the Sharks WILL be there, it is unavoidable.

it does not matter what type of blood it is. Welcome to America, Baby...

[BBadger]

I remember going to Las Vegas with a friend and we went around and got some food from Subway Sandwiches (no $5 foot-longs there) and proceeded to walk our way back to the hotel. On the way we finished our meal and my friend mentions to me: "you know, normally in any other place I would feel bad about doing this, but..." and he tosses the garbage in some bush on the side of a parking lot on the way.

I felt the same way. My trash went in the next bush.

I wouldn't call it MOOP, because that's what Las Vegas is all about. Some dude will clean it up. When I go to Las Vegas, I feel entitled to not give a shit about the place because I feel I'm already being exploited by being there. Oh sure, I made the decision to visit and spend money, etc. but the place to me just encourages detachment, entitlement, even abuse. You're there with your money, and the money means you can do whatever you want.

And so I contrast Las Vegas to Burning Man. Both have lots of glitz, tons of people, heat, good looking people, entertainment, etc. Both have the same level of effort put into making the place grand. But while one place makes me want to abuse it, the other makes me want to preserve it. People don't call it "home" for no good reason (well, except for begging for tickets).

What scares me about the commercialization of Burning Man is that it will build a sense of detachment and entitlement that I see in commercial places like Las Vegas. If I'm going some place where some corporate sponsor has paid for a stage, and a cleanup crew, why would or should I bother picking up MOOP in the street? Why should I feel grateful that some artist decides to give a show when he is paid to do so? Why should I not be paid to "volunteer" at a commercial event? Why would I feel it is worth bringing cool stuff to compete with a commercial event that will attract the attention?

The detachment and entitlement are exactly what form the common strains described of "playa undesirables." They're only there to observe, to exploit, to not get involved. I'm not really worried about reducing the glitz or awesomeness of the event itself with commercialization, but rather what will become of the atmosphere encouraged by a lack of commercialization. The best thing about Burning Man for me is that aside from the basic infrastructure and the major burns, everything is brought by people wanting to bring stuff for someone else. It's people trying to one-up each other just for awesomeness, not for pay.

You can keep your commercialized events.

[junglesmacks]

All I can do is lol.


Happy 4th, everyone. Enjoy this world and all that entails. Try not to sweat the little shit.

[Elderberry]

I remember going to Las Vegas with a friend and we went around and got some food from Subway Sandwiches (no $5 foot-longs there) and proceeded to walk our way back to the hotel. On the way we finished our meal and my friend mentions to me: "you know, normally in any other place I would feel bad about doing this, but..." and he tosses the garbage in some bush on the side of a parking lot on the way.

I felt the same way. My trash went in the next

Tells me a whole lot about you, and none of it's good.

So, the principles are something that are only to be followed on the playa?

Hmmmm...quite the burner you are. Not to mention citizen of the world.

[lemur]

We figured one big pile is better than two little piles so instead of bringing their garbage up we decided to throw ours down

[BBadger]

Tells me a whole lot about you, and none of it's good.

So, the principles are something that are only to be followed on the playa?

No, in places to be cared about as well, which is practically all places. Vegas, however, is not one of them for precisely the reasons stated above.

The story is performing its function perfectly: a sense of detachment and entitlement brings out the worst in people.

[Drawingablank]

I remember going to Las Vegas with a friend and we went around and got some food from Subway Sandwiches (no $5 foot-longs there) and proceeded to walk our way back to the hotel. On the way we finished our meal and my friend mentions to me: "you know, normally in any other place I would feel bad about doing this, but..." and he tosses the garbage in some bush on the side of a parking lot on the way.

I felt the same way. My trash went in the next

Tells me a whole lot about you, and none of it's good.

So, the principles are something that are only to be followed on the playa?

Hmmmm...quite the burner you are. Not to mention citizen of the world.

I have to agree - I wouldn' do that crap regardless of where I was. But then again, I consider myself a burner regardless or where / when I am currently.

To feel that dropping moop is ok just because you are in some overly commercialized shithole is very much not ok.

[lemur]

its not about bbadger and what he did.. his point is valid... its about the environment that causes some people to feel that bad seeming things are OK... enjoy your pious selves! but theres a point where the environment around you encourages certain behaviors (like the behaviors we like to see at burning man, for example.. things that arent OK to do or that dont happen outside of it..).

things like people piling up trash next to the overflowing trash bin instead of walking 15 feet down to the one that isnt full.... people take cues from their surroundings and sometimes their own values and stuff dont match up with what they do because of the cues that the environment has given them as to what is OK and acceptable.

'rather than pick theirs up we decided to throw ours down'

[wh..sh]

If there was a way I could plonk this thread, I would.

Some of the arguments/points here are slowly turning into not-so-nice poo in my head.

[lemur]

perhaps that is the heart of the problem ...wh..sh.


people just want to ignore what they dont like...

[FIGJAM]

its not about bbadger and what he did.. his point is valid... its about the environment that causes some people to feel that bad seeming things are OK... enjoy your pious selves! but theres a point where the environment around you encourages certain behaviors (like the behaviors we like to see at burning man, for example.. things that arent OK to do or that dont happen outside of it..).

things like people piling up trash next to the overflowing trash bin instead of walking 15 feet down to the one that isnt full.... people take cues from their surroundings and sometimes their own values and stuff dont match up with what they do because of the cues that the environment has given them as to what is OK and acceptable.

'rather than pick theirs up we decided to throw ours down'

This sounds too much like peer pressure and that shit stopped for me in jr. high school.

My principals are not dictated by my enviornment!

[lemur]

My principals are not dictated by my enviornment!

you didnt pick those principals up in a vacuum, did you ? ?

as a famous wise dead man said

"this kinda shit just didnt come all out of nowhere,..NO!!!! this is old.. and dirty"

[FIGJAM]

Not the same thing at all.

You were talking about being at some public event where trash is the norm and that being there for that few hours or days makes a person fall into that habit while there.

That does'nt happen to me.

My head is mostly vacuum, so yes, that is where my priciples come from.

[wh..sh]

perhaps that is the heart of the problem ...wh..sh.


people just want to ignore what they dont like...

I understand the point you guys are trying to make.
Lemur, there's isn't a thing anyone could tell you that you already don't know. I truly believe that you are a smart and a sensible person.
Sometimes you just get in a passionate argumentative mode and you are damn good at it.

[Elderberry]

Tells me a whole lot about you, and none of it's good.

So, the principles are something that are only to be followed on the playa?

No, in places to be cared about as well, which is practically all places. Vegas, however, is not one of them for precisely the reasons stated above.

The story is performing its function perfectly: a sense of detachment and entitlement brings out the worst in people.

We go to Las Vegas several times a year and would no more think of throwing our trash in a bush there than in any other city. It doesn't bring the worst out of people, it brings the worst out or you and those you chose to hang out with. Your post and your logic on this issue are pathetic.

[BBadger]

We go to Las Vegas several times a year and would no more think of throwing our trash in a bush there than in any other city. It doesn't bring the worst out of people, it brings the worst out or you and those you chose to hang out with. Your post and your logic on this issue are pathetic.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not proud of that action. And hey, you may even be right that it was the social environment I chose to hang out in for better or for worse. Vegas is a big place, and people go for all different reasons. However, the point remains and is illustrated by the incident: the sense that you're buying your experiences, that people will clean up your messes because they're more concerned with where you'll drop your dollar, that a city/festival/etc. is there to serve you--these kinds of things drive a sense of entitlement, detachment, and exploitation.

[Drawingablank]

Does their sheer existence in someway devalue or taint Burning Man?

Just my opinion, but I feel that in at least one way it does - although we know that BM is way different, most of the population (including politicians and LEO's) don't see any difference between our festival and all the others. So in effect anything negative that happens at other festivals casts some negativity our way even though we had nothing to do with it.

If you doubt this, just think about how many times you've had a conversation about Burning Man and someone who has never been there jumps to the conclusion that it's like woodstock or a music festival.

[Elderberry]

We go to Las Vegas several times a year and would no more think of throwing our trash in a bush there than in any other city. It doesn't bring the worst out of people, it brings the worst out or you and those you chose to hang out with. Your post and your logic on this issue are pathetic.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not proud of that action. And hey, you may even be right that it was the social environment I chose to hang out in for better or for worse. Vegas is a big place, and people go for all different reasons. However, the point remains and is illustrated by the incident: the sense that you're buying your experiences, that people will clean up your messes because they're more concerned with where you'll drop your dollar, that a city/festival/etc. is there to serve you--these kinds of things drive a sense of entitlement, detachment, and exploitation.

Well that is certainly encouraging.

But is it those "things" that "drive a sense of entitlement"? Back in the day, kids were brought up to respect and care for public spaces. Today kids are raised on episodes of Jersey Shore, so I guess a lack of moral compass is to be expected.

[Trishntek]

Having just read through this thread for the first time, I see a small parallel with The Place Next Door. This Place is literally next door to us here in Ventura. We operate it much like Retrofrolic with the exception of a "donation can" by the front door. We offer it to our local community of BDSM kinda folks and receive newbies on a regular basis.

Many of the newbies have no idea what Burning Man is and even less idea what participation is really all about. Oh they come and willingly consume our drink and food without bringing anything to share. They soil our linens, use our condoms and maybe even take a shower while there. You would think such an experience would culminate a certain level of gratitude. But it is astounding, even when on the event announcement it says, "Generous gifts are greatly appreciated", they are shocked when we direct them to the donation can.

There is indeed a sense of entitlement without any concept of what is actually being made available to them. But that changes without a great deal of encouragement once they realize "this ain't a free ride". It does not matter to us what they contribute. Some are unemployed and a fiver is precious to them,,, so be it!

But once they realize the VALUE of what is freely offered to them without pretense, their attitude changes. Once they realize we are not a business and do what we do simply as a gift to our particular community, a light comes on,,, all of a sudden they want to help clean up, take care of the laundry or desire to get involved in any way they can.

Often times, I'll enter the kitchen to see someone doing dishes or taking care of the trash. It makes me smile and encourages me that, given the proper encouragement and example, people take upon themselves a level of pride and ownership. It's not ingratiating them,,, no, it's a matter of mentoring them by example. It is a matter of knowing they can actually be a part of something bigger than themselves. They get a sense of ownership which money does not and cannot buy.

[Simon of the Playa]

Having just read through this thread for the first time, I see a small parallel with The Place Next Door. This Place is literally next door to us here in Ventura. We operate it much like Retrofrolic with the exception of a "donation can" by the front door. We offer it to our local community of BDSM kinda folks and receive newbies on a regular basis.

Many of the newbies have no idea what Burning Man is and even less idea what participation is really all about. Oh they come and willingly consume our drink and food without bringing anything to share. They soil our linens, use our condoms and maybe even take a shower while there. You would think such an experience would culminate a certain level of gratitude. But it is astounding, even when on the event announcement it says, "Generous gifts are greatly appreciated", they are shocked when we direct them to the donation can.

There is indeed a sense of entitlement without any concept of what is actually being made available to them. But that changes without a great deal of encouragement once they realize "this ain't a free ride". It does not matter to us what they contribute. Some are unemployed and a fiver is precious to them,,, so be it!

But once they realize the VALUE of what is freely offered to them without pretense, their attitude changes. Once they realize we are not a business and do what we do simply as a gift to our particular community, a light comes on,,, all of a sudden they want to help clean up, take care of the laundry or desire to get involved in any way they can.

Often times, I'll enter the kitchen to see someone doing dishes or taking care of the trash. It makes me smile and encourages me that, given the proper encouragement and example, people take upon themselves a level of pride and ownership. It's not ingratiating them,,, no, it's a matter of mentoring them by example. It is a matter of knowing they can actually be a part of something bigger than themselves. They get a sense of ownership which money does not and cannot buy.

OMG...

you're a full time pervert!



i totally respect that.

[theCryptofishist]

However, the point remains and is illustrated by the incident: the sense that you're buying your experiences, that people will clean up your messes because they're more concerned with where you'll drop your dollar, that a city/festival/etc. is there to serve you--these kinds of things drive a sense of entitlement, detachment, and exploitation.

I think that people working retail see this as well, depending on the business and clientele...

[lemur]

burning man has found a way to profit off of creating an environment where discouraging litter and commercialization is the norm.. (albeit this is more likely to do with BLM mandates)

other fests and events tend to not have to worry about this..BLM mandate.... printing out reams of acculturation info in the form of 'survival guides' and spending effort on acculturation videos and 'greeters' to spread the word probably isnt gonna be profitable... its easier to just pay some minimum wage guys to clean up the mess ....these fests arent actively discouraging litter so it seems the norm to just drop shit on the ground.... the masses are doing it! ....these same masses have come to expect that festivals are places where youll be gouged and have to unload a heapload of cash to buy anything... and the ones involved in producing it are apparently glad to involve corp sponsors and locked in vendors ... to bring in more cash...

so basically it ends up that theres a difference that burning man is actively discouraging a lot of the 'bad' stuff about festivals (for whatever reasons) ....and the festivals with 'bad' stuff arent actively discouraging the bad things......

in my eye i see the differences as more-so a money related thing....less-so than a difference in culture....... i bet if there was a 'leave no trace' sponsorship from some big company like uhh COLUMBIA SPORTSWEAR/NORTHFACE the festivals would be more than glad to pile that money up and print out tons of signs and pamphlets telling people to avoid mooping.

i dont think people attending the average festival are asshole litter bugs in any bigger numbers than those who attend burning man....... its just burning man is openly encouraging a certain type of behavior where-as other fests arent ....

[Elderberry]

My problem is that not littering should have to be promoted in the first place. Long before I ever attended Burningman I was taught to not litter. It was the norm. Burningman just gave it a different name.