BURNING MAN "ART" at COACHELLA - commerce vs. comm

d6 · Post by d6 » Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:25 pm

Who will emerge victorious?

FLAME AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

if thats not enough, I'll give you a push-start:::::::::::::
lifted from the extra action thread:
(the bleedinghearthippies say: "F!ck U.S. Imperialism!")
but yet did not comment on UK Colonialism.....
curious that.....

d6,
a f!ck-off of a
replacement scurvy bastard, who finally relented back into the internet world,
but is still asking:
"did they burn the man yet? i just got here, can i camp with you guys? my friends ditched me, do you have some water? do you have some drugs? I'll pay you back in town, can you give me a ride home"?

PetsUntilEaten · Post by **PetsUntilEaten** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:39 am

I don't get it.

d6 · Post by d6 » Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:42 am

helio pets - since you are a long-time eplaya vet, YOU deserve an explanation to my vagueness. (plus I'm time-wasting laundry, labor, and stereo-type-A).

the generalized self-prolclaimed "maybe I'm a bleeding heart hippie" response in the "i like my action extra" thread prompted me to think somewhat as to the long-beaten dead debates by various BM attendees, with the recurring taglines of: "ticket price too much, i remember when i could sell sno-cones and t-shirts and "crafts", more of this, less of that, GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS,FIRE FIRE FIRE FIRE,those types are ruining my good time vs. can't we all just get along?<etc,ect}
and this particular response on the extra thread was over an unliked photograph on the BM site,
so as i was finishing my thought on the extra thread, i ended with the thought of how odd it was to see loads of BRC (mostly 2003) bigger "art" installations at this past coachella festival, and how peculiar it was to see these pieces in the context of endless smoothie,food, merch and beer stands, and that side by side, night time pictures are hard to differentiate between BRC and coachella,
and so since there seems to be a BM faction of "it should still be free// less, why do they sell ice /coffee?" people ,

I pose the query:

If BM went 100% commerce-based,(vendor stands) as coachella already is, who would emerge victorious?

the "art / music / fire " event in the nevada desert
or the
"music / art" event in the california desert?

my invite to FLAME AWAY still stands.

d6,
dork-bot
sleepy-bot
sad-bot
scurvy-bot

PetsUntilEaten · Post by **PetsUntilEaten** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:05 am

nope. I still got nothing.

huh?

what do you want us to get mad about?

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:39 am

Oh, I get it, I think snails are cute but I still don't like the slimy stuff. I like frogs the best.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:43 am

last thing I want to go to is a music festival with a line-up and a main stage and vending. Although this year at burning man had all of these elements to a degree. So, I guess what I am saying is, well, uh, Yeah!

PetsUntilEaten · Post by **PetsUntilEaten** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:56 am

ok ok

Let me try this.

I love Coachella . & . I love Burningman.

I have some reservations about both that I am dealing with my own way.

If you say that the pictures look the same to you - does that mean you think that the feelings & everything else in each event lies solely in its photo or the look of it?

soupman · Post by **soupman** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:02 am

I was thrown right back onto the playa upon seeing the Chandelier at Coachella... started smiling ear to ear and offering things to all my friends *grin*... was a nice surprise...

I look forward to attending both in the future.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:03 am

I like live music but I really wish I could find an awesome show that is mainly audio/visual ... sort of like what Manfred Mann did with their Somewhere in Afrika tour in the early 80's. I spent the entire concert with my eyes glued to the screen. I think there is a great opportunity to mix light, sound, and art and to blend it all together on the playa. Next year should be an especially good opportunity too because it is going to be so dark ... no moonlight. I know there are already varying degrees of this and maybe it is too much to ask for something that has to be dragged all the way out there, set up in a hurry just to be torn down again ... but I suppose I can always wish. Sometimes I wish I had the talent to go along with my visions

As for commerce, if Coachella has it ... then maybe that is all that's needed. Most people have already gone to great expense to just get there and get set up. Now if they start restricting the experiance of their art/crafts to people pay for it we end up with two VERY distinct classes, producers and consumers. I thought the idea was that we were all producers (particpants). To embrace commerce is to embrace spectatorship and I am not sure I want to go that route myself but who knows ... things mutate.

If they DID go that route, they better provide water, showers, laundry, electricity hookups, waste disposal, garbage collection, etc. because I damned sure and not going to haul all my shit in and out, worry about my own water and moop just for the priv. of being able to give my money to someone else. Screw that, they want my money, they can earn it.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:51 am

"They"?

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:56 am

If BMorg turned BRC into a commerce event, it would be hard for me personally to justify going unless they also provided the amenaties. In other words, if you are going to make it into a commerce fair, you might was well have it someplace a hell of a lot easier to get into/out of. It would be hard for me to justify to myself doing all that work for the priv. of giving someone else my hard earned cash. I would rather see the look on someones face when they get something they weren't expecting.

But I am not sure what the original poster was even getting at.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:10 pm

"BMorg"?

PetsUntilEaten · Post by **PetsUntilEaten** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:38 pm

geekster wrote:But I am not sure what the original poster was even getting at.

exactly.

----------------------------------

Bob -

BMorg = typo spelling of Borg

Borg = you will all be assimilated, resistance is futile.

d6 · Post by d6 » Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:43 pm

geeks - audio/visually,
the Kraftwerk performance was the Biggest reason i went to coachella. i had no idea that 4 older german men with laptops and a giant video screen would be so amazing. seeing quite a few installations i had just seen at brc @ coach. was indeed a surprise, and brought to light some obvious comparisons between BM / Coach. - (as well as obvious diff).
the "exit" scenario @ coach was the worst I've ever been trapped in, although sleeping in the car was nice after the rental car unmarked everything zombie walk ended.........

as for the "point" of the post, i felt like starting a dialogue (out of initailly dis-jointed thoughts) and see burners diff. versions re: 2 of the biggest west coast music / art / fire events, with commercial implications.

As for seeing at night, nope, can't do it, I'm night-blind as well as color blind, and choose to let individual experiences dictate feelings, rather than dead print. And the pictures I took do look similar, as they are essentially the same subjects at night. in a polo-field / desert environment.

pets - not mad, just a debate topic.

d6
struggling with humanity and the power of words
"i've got a license to confuse"

PetsUntilEaten · Post by **PetsUntilEaten** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:55 pm

Hmmm. Why would we flame you? You don't even seem to have an opinion to counter. You've said something along the lines of "Commerce and art at Coachella and Burningman. Please discuss."

If you wanted to be flamed or have a discussion maybe you could clearly state an opinion? I love a good flame war but even I am having trouble finding something to sink my teeth into.

Not to help you out too much - but there seems to be two things you are getting at. First is the idea of commerce. Second is the idea of Burning Man's Art - perhaps as it relates to commerce since the same art is brought to Coachella.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:00 pm

maybe it is too much to ask for something that has to be dragged all the way out there, set up in a hurry just to be torn down again

I did this thing of what you are speaking, it was a bit too much. I need minions.

d6 · Post by d6 » Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:12 pm

Having seen many a thread detoriate into flame wars, i felt I'd simplify the matter by offering myself up in a "responsible poster" manner, even if my articulation skills seem to be confusing, or uninspiring. So sure, I could have posted 2 obvious, combative counterpoints, say in the style of:
"I'm not gay, You're gay!"
or
"my art is better than your art"
or
"rainbow gatherers are better than Burners"
or
"voting in a 2-party system cures all"

but essentially, yes, it's all about an unassuming commerce discussion based on some halfwits observations @ events that seemingly promote some manner of
"art"

d6,
avoiding actual accomplishment in favor of computer love

d6 · Post by d6 » Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:14 pm

that last one was in response to pets last post

d6,
slow typists unite!

playasnake · Post by **playasnake** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:15 pm

d6 wrote:as for the "point" of the post, i felt like starting a dialogue (out of initailly dis-jointed thoughts) and see burners diff. versions re: 2 of the biggest west coast music / art / fire events, with commercial implications.

coachella has about as much art / fire as burningman does vending. they poach a few burningman pieces and parts each year to try and get more out of the "Arts Festival" (in 'Coachella Music and Arts Festival').

Mutaytor, the Unimog, Madagascar (remember the octopus), and i think the robochrist team (i think it was their bots in 2003), as well as the chandelier have all been there, and probably others that im not naming, but always in a 'sideshow' type of way... people stop by and look, but they are there to see the bands they want.

they want to spectate.

there seemed to be a lot of that on the playa this year as well.

d6 · Post by d6 » Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:17 pm

Stuart - do you do alot of projection?

our projects the last 5 years have involved projection for interactive video feedback, (this year 3/ esp)and you only need 3 committed minions at most.

If i could have emailed you PM, i would've.

d6,
squinting specialist, 2004

d6 · Post by d6 » Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:28 pm

playasnake wrote:
they want to spectate.

there seemed to be a lot of that on the playa this year as well.

absolutely!

d6,
fight robot team member trainee

PetsUntilEaten · Post by **PetsUntilEaten** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:34 pm

I like that Coachella has set aside more & more money each year to bring out Burning Man art but that is for mostly selfish reasons. I like seeing all those Burning Man people & they get to have their own mini Burning Man while having some if not all their expenses covered. The Burning Man artists aren't so much making money, but they do get tickets, transport & access. There is also a camping area for the artists at Coachella - so it's a nice gathering.

Specifically the Telsa coil at Coachella is the second largest in the world and the very largest in this hemisphere (the biggest is in a private collection in New Zealand). It is expensive to run & it makes me happy to see Syd's face when he gets to run it at Coachella.

Sure people spectate at Coachella - as my friend Segue said to me about "art heroes" at Burning Man but I think it applies:

"It's the other participants who need to stop idolizing others and putting
them up on pedestals (which is actually a precarious and somewhat
undesirable position to be in) and start doing something cool too.

I've talked with lots of famous people and they tend to develop that hard
kind of egotistical exterior to shield themselves from all the idolizers who
aren't ready to fess up to their own responsibilities or abilities and still
need to worship somebody else as an easy substitute for being their own
creators."

It seems obvious that most of the outside/real world pays others to make their art & dream their dreams. I know very few the dynamic amazing people I know in film & tv that actually watch much film or tv. The noteable example is a director who doesn't have television acces of any kind in his house. Hopefully most people who go to Burning Man the kind of people who choose to actively create their entertainment or at least engage their entertainment. Some people don't even think of it as a choice.

However, I can't say that I have much against paying people for the priveledge of seeing their art or performance in the real world. I just like there to be balance. Even at Burning Man - if some us didn't stop to "spectate" who would watch all the performances or look at the art? I think we are trying to have everyone contribute - but not necessarily be non-stop bundle of Participation! every single frickin' waking second.
Spectating has its place at Burning Man in the same way participation can have a place in the real world/Coachella.

And commerce - Burning Man is not commerce free. It's just social commerce. Our interactions create social bonding. Money can help people think they can just walk away after they hand over the cash - like hookers. One attraction to paying a hooker is that people can absolve themselves of any feeling of social obligation or emotional attachment that sex implies.

There.

How's that?

PetsUntilEaten · Post by **PetsUntilEaten** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:36 pm

I like that Coachella has set aside more & more money each year to bring out Burning Man art but that is for mostly selfish reasons. I like seeing all those Burning Man people & they get to have their own mini Burning Man while having some if not all their expenses covered. The Burning Man artists aren't so much making money, but they do get tickets, transport & access. There is also a camping area for the artists at Coachella - so it's a nice gathering.

Specifically the Telsa coil at Coachella is the second largest in the world and the very largest in this hemisphere (the biggest is in a private collection in New Zealand). It is expensive to run & it makes me happy to see Syd's face when he gets to run it at Coachella.

Sure people spectate at Coachella - as my friend Segue said to me about "art heroes" at Burning Man but I think it applies:

"It's the other participants who need to stop idolizing others and putting
them up on pedestals (which is actually a precarious and somewhat
undesirable position to be in) and start doing something cool too.

I've talked with lots of famous people and they tend to develop that hard
kind of egotistical exterior to shield themselves from all the idolizers who
aren't ready to fess up to their own responsibilities or abilities and still
need to worship somebody else as an easy substitute for being their own
creators."

It seems obvious that most of the outside/real world pays others to make their art & dream their dreams. I know very few the dynamic amazing people I know in film & tv that actually watch much film or tv. The noteable example is a director who doesn't have television acces of any kind in his house. Hopefully most people who go to Burning Man the kind of people who choose to actively create their entertainment or at least engage their entertainment. Some people don't even think of it as a choice.

However, I can't say that I have much against paying people for the priveledge of seeing their art or performance in the real world. I just like there to be balance. Even at Burning Man - if some us didn't stop to "spectate" who would watch all the performances or look at the art? I think we are trying to have everyone contribute - but not necessarily be non-stop bundle of Participation! every single frickin' waking second.
Spectating has its place at Burning Man in the same way participation can have a place in the real world/Coachella.

And commerce - Burning Man is not commerce free. It's just social commerce. Our interactions create social bonding. Money can help people think they can just walk away after they hand over the cash - like hookers. One attraction to paying a hooker is that people can absolve themselves of any feeling of social obligation or emotional attachment that sex implies.

There.

How's that?

sparkletarte · Post by **sparkletarte** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:54 pm

That's pretty darn good, Pets.

I'm not understanding why the comparison is happening to begin with. Does Coachella (which I've never heard of) say 'oh, we are just like BM?'. Somehow I doubt it. Who cares if there is vending, or if they put up money to get artists who are also at BM to come to their festival. It sounds like it's good for the artists, and if they don't like it, they can choose not to go. Obviously other people like it too, as they go to it.

The comparison seems like the burnier than thou thing, except it's on a festival level instead of a personal level.

PetsUntilEaten · Post by **PetsUntilEaten** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:13 pm

I like that Coachella has set aside more & more money each year to bring out Burning Man art but that is for mostly selfish reasons. I like seeing all those Burning Man people & they get to have their own mini Burning Man while having some if not all their expenses covered. The Burning Man artists aren't so much making money, but they do get tickets, transport & access. There is also a camping area for the artists at Coachella - so it's a nice gathering.

Specifically the Telsa coil at Coachella is the second largest in the world and the very largest in this hemisphere (the biggest is in a private collection in New Zealand). It is expensive to run & it makes me happy to see Syd's face when he gets to run it at Coachella.

Sure people spectate at Coachella - as my friend Segue said to me about "art heroes" at Burning Man but I think it applies:

"It's the other participants who need to stop idolizing others and putting
them up on pedestals (which is actually a precarious and somewhat
undesirable position to be in) and start doing something cool too.

I've talked with lots of famous people and they tend to develop that hard
kind of egotistical exterior to shield themselves from all the idolizers who
aren't ready to fess up to their own responsibilities or abilities and still
need to worship somebody else as an easy substitute for being their own
creators."

It seems obvious that most of the outside/real world pays others to make their art & dream their dreams. I know very few the dynamic amazing people I know in film & tv that actually watch much film or tv. The noteable example is a director who doesn't have television acces of any kind in his house. Hopefully most people who go to Burning Man the kind of people who choose to actively create their entertainment or at least engage their entertainment. Some people don't even think of it as a choice.

However, I can't say that I have much against paying people for the priveledge of seeing their art or performance in the real world. I just like there to be balance. Even at Burning Man - if some us didn't stop to "spectate" who would watch all the performances or look at the art? I think we are trying to have everyone contribute - but not necessarily be non-stop bundle of Participation! every single frickin' waking second.
Spectating has its place at Burning Man in the same way participation can have a place in the real world/Coachella.

And commerce - Burning Man is not commerce free. It's just social commerce. Our interactions create social bonding. Money can help people think they can just walk away after they hand over the cash - like hookers. One attraction to paying a hooker is that people can absolve themselves of any feeling of social obligation or emotional attachment that sex implies.

There.

How's that?

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:38 pm

Stuart - do you do alot of projection?

yes

my rig was at esp and 9:40 this year.

There were 4 of us in camp so in a manner of speaking I had 3 minions but we also were dealing with DJs and a P.A.. I had three projectors up there. With the babysitting and the weather this year I felt it was a bit too much work but the idea of going to BM next year and not doing my thing on a large scale makes me uncomfortable.

Re: coachella, I don't want to take that away from folks. It's just not my thing any more. burning man has spoiled me in terms of the access that everyone is assumed to have. I like the paradigm. I like the egalitarian nature of it. It's part of why the big rockstarsofburningmanmutaytorandwolfieshow this year bummed me out.

PetsUntilEaten · Post by **PetsUntilEaten** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:13 pm

To make it clear -

The Burning Man art at Coachella is curated/organized by a Burning Man artist. The promoter who is hired by Coachella to bring art has been to Burning Man over a number of years. They started with an almost nothing budget to bring art. Seeing the response to the art, Coachella organizers have increased the budget each year.

I dunno. The thing that makes my Coachella is that we rent houses & buy communal food. So a large group of us (45 people in 4 houses) all drink, cook, spin records, swim, and see music together for a whole weekend. The houses we rent at the near by golf courses are cheaper than hotels and have their own pools & jacuzzis. I get a "communal" experience in the smaller sense of it. The house is more than half the experience for me - like uber-plush camping.

I also get to talk with friends who live far away who couldn't afford to travel out without Coachella's funding.

So - You're right Stuart. Coachella isn't egalitarian. It doesn't really compare - but what does? If I get just a little wedge of what I get at Burning Man - thats still damn good. And it's cheaper than Burning Man too!

d6 · Post by d6 » Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:20 pm

thats very good, pets, thanks.

Some of what you posted is dead-on-as-applies-to-me, (especially the selfish thing) so allow me to retort:
Me + 5 dedicated people made 3 sep. projects live @ brc 2004.
we scraped together what materials we could to offset actual costs, as we are none to blessed with money to burn at BM. Our efforts were in repsonse to feeling as if we must create / contribute / work / play / and spectate, even while truly it was almost non-stop work due to the nature of our projects, and this years W-i-N-ds.

We left camp to explore the least out of any of our collective brc trips, and
It was the best year out of the past 5 for all of us, even as we sat on our asses, spectating at the people, and having a great time interacting with those who actually took the time to invesitgate our camp space.

We didn't do anything as awesome as the Tesla Coil (alltime favorite sound, being in the Megavolt cage last year =a lifetime of happiness)
But neither did we say,"oh, man no megavolt?, no extra -action"? now what do we do? who will entertain us!!!.

Realizing years ago that I must be responsible for my own happiness,
and that that applies to brc as well,
for brc 04
we brought forth our best efforts, in spite of having serious lily pad/ unimog / megavolt/ extra action / michael christian envy,
all of whom i will stop and spectate for every single time. and if possible, I'll speak to them as well, to (hopefully) gain more insight to the creative minds that inspire me to action, as opposed to inactive "hero-worship", which i feel is a monumental waste of time....

so we created, didnt offer brc a bar or tech?no!, gave away evrything we made, and it was F!cking great! all at personal, but absorbable expense.

I put on shows for money, (profession-by-default), and I donate tons of time to perform / set-up / clean-up / build whatever for free as well. I have yet to resolve all of my feelings regarding any art form as commodity, (music being especially touchy) but the search continues..............

sidetracked>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sorry>>back on track in 3...2...1..

I don't think I've ever laughed as much as i did when we were "working" the projects @ brc,
so
I'm committed for at least another year around the labor day weekend to be out there with more creative-as-work-ethic-types, who will hopefully clean-up after themselves.

I love the art // music // fire // technogeekery combination,and feel the more events that incorporate these elements, the happier I'll be, which is exactly why I got into putting on shows in the first place, and will continue to do so.........

thanks pets, I've enjoyed the posts.

sidetracked>>sorry>>back on track in 3.2.1................

{response to a non-pets post: as far holes, i have 9 that i know of.......}

??????
d6,
delusional sandwich maker in a world where no one eats........

d6 · Post by d6 » Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:30 pm

stuart wrote: the big rockstarsofburningmanmutaytorandwolfieshow this year bummed me out.

you are not alone!
it bummed us out last year and at the fire-arts oakland show as well.

d6,
scurviestoh bastardlyoh

angelface · Post by **angelface** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:11 pm

I went to both events this year.. first time at Coachella (bit of a trek from Seattle) and 3rd at Burning Man.. I went to these events for totally different reasons.. I went to Coachella to hear music, period, the end. I go to Burning Man for dozens of reasons.. a big one is to see the people who have become part of my extended family that don't live near me the rest of the year, another was the very tough and very rewarding experience of helping to start up a new theme camp (with only 4 people, and a very small budget, and placed in center camp.. yikes), others include meeting tons of new people, seeing all the art (stationary, mobile, and performance) going on out there, another is to see the temple, another is the joy of being totally self sufficient for a while, another is not dealing with money for a while.

I do have to say though, the big downer for me at Coachella was all the fucking trash all over the place. People couldn't even be bothered to walk 10 feet and throw their water bottle in the trash can.. that alone will make me always choose burning man over coachella if I can only do one. After a couple trips to burning man where the random trash is there, but in pretty small quantities, coachella just made me sick to my stomach. I had forgotten how fucking lazy people can be.

BURNING MAN "ART" at COACHELLA - commerce vs. comm

BURNING MAN "ART" at COACHELLA - commerce vs. comm

~