Flame throwers and propane canons

BeFunky · Post by **BeFunky** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 6:47 pm

Does anybody know where I can obtain information of making/ purchasing flame throwers and propane torch type things. They seem to be all over the playa, yet I'm having trouble finding information. I've been using a gardening tool, attached to a propane tank, but it doesnt have the co2 tank attached or whatever it is, so it is only able to create a continuous flame as opposed to bursts of flame. Anybody know?

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:38 pm

www.bonefire.com makes some. We took one of their nozzles and put at the end of about 15 feel of 2-inch pipe connected to a 150-gal tank of propane for the art car. Had a couple of "personal" units in the camp too.

shitmouse · Post by **shitmouse** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:43 pm

that is what i want now for my bday since forever.
niiice.
-b

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:52 pm

oh, and hanging around with these guys a little could probably lead to a few tips and pointers

http://www.srl.org/

thinkcooper · Post by **thinkcooper** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:27 pm

Bonefire Bob has also built a new device called Pyrocussion. It uses a stainless cable to open a brass steam whistle valve releasing the propane in the expansion tank thorugh a piezo ignitor, very similar to the traditional bonefire. The cable is hit by a drum stick. They sound great when played by a skilled drummer, and don't when not...

The other typical design uses high pressure nitrogen to push kerosene out the bottom of a tank through a hose and nozzle. It's good to ignite the propelled kerosene with a constant propane flame or a neon tube ignitior. The problem is finding a tank to hold the kerosene that can't stand up to the high pressure rating of the nitrogen, far in excess of typical propane pressures. It used to be a very typical to see these on the playa: Illumination Village, Mason, Dave X, etc. but now these are quite uncommon and need to be inspected before playa approval.

Here's a cool shot of us messing around with a bonefire/ prototype pyrocussion in my driveway. The nieghbors love it.

You should really save yourself the hassle and contact Bob at the URL in geekster's post. He's got it dialed in, and these all propane bonefires are easy to handle on the playa. My kids can do it with ease, lots of cool tricks you can work out with 'em as well.

BeFunky · Post by **BeFunky** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:57 pm

it seems like the models that bonefire offers are rather costly. 750 to 950? did everybody with a flame throwe on the playa spend 1000 dollars? how costly could these things be to make?

the torch thing i had this year, cost me 22$ and could shoot fire nearly 15ft, i just couldn't do it create bursts of fire.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 1:26 am

Read Roland Tower's first post and floow the links. He's a young god in the making.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showth ... genumber=1[/quote]

thinkcooper · Post by **thinkcooper** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 8:14 am

Badger wrote:Read Roland Tower's first post and floow the links. He's a young god in the making.

He's got the concept down; the use of PVC and compressed fuel gives me the willies. Roland may inadvertently become newsworthy someday becoming his own personal burning man.

BeFunky, it doesn't take rocket science to build a flamethrower. Every flame thrower out there uses off the shelf components. Just be sure the various pieces and materials you're using can withstand the prssures you're using to propel your fuel and be sure that your fuel isn't going to dissolve anything in your thrower. A crowd on fire at the playa would definately leave some trace.

"Safety third" is fun to say, but do yourself a favor and put it first when you're designing your flame thrower. Good luck!

Alpha · Post by **Alpha** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:45 am

Agreed on the PVC. Using denatured alcohol for the fuel seems like a pretty good idea, though. A few things I didn't understand from his post:

* presumably the tank holds a combination of fuel and pressurize air from a standard air compressor?

* how does he tap the tank so that the air doesn't feed, causing the thing to sputter? Is that simply a matter of tapping at the bottom and letting gravity keep the fuel feeding?

* shouldn't the nozzle have some kind of air intake to assure a proper oxygen supply?

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:57 am

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... highlight=

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:04 am

BeFunky wrote:Does anybody know where I can obtain information of making/ purchasing flame throwers and propane torch type things. They seem to be all over the playa, yet I'm having trouble finding information. I've been using a gardening tool, attached to a propane tank, but it doesnt have the co2 tank attached or whatever it is, so it is only able to create a continuous flame as opposed to bursts of flame. Anybody know?

One addittional thing, you can buy threaded brass or copper pipe to just about any length you want, so no soldering involved. Its pretty easy now, but the whistle valve is the most expensive component, and probably the most important.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:25 am

I like that backpack pvc unit. Seems like that could be useful in getting to know the neighbors better. Just sit out in the front yard in the lawn chair with a cold beer and shoot fire across the street. Shouldn't take long for one of them to come over and ask what the fuck I think I am doing.

Hmm, I have been wanting to get rid of those juniper bushes along the curb anyway.

One thing I noticed was that the propane flamers are only pretty much for night use. What I found looked cool night OR day were the ones that used acetylene. They put out a nice big cloud of carbon soot with the flame and look cool in the daytime.

thinkcooper · Post by **thinkcooper** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:59 am

Alpha wrote:Agreed on the PVC. Using denatured alcohol for the fuel seems like a pretty good idea, though. A few things I didn't understand from his post:

* presumably the tank holds a combination of fuel and pressurize air from a standard air compressor?

I noticed he was using a Shraeder valve to pressurize the tank. That's the standard bicycle tube fitting, so either a hand-held/floor-style bicycle tube pump or a compressor with a schraeder inflator could be used to pressurize. A hand pump would take a good bit longer considering the volume, and be a slower method to pressurize, but a lot easier to deal with on the playa than a compressor.

* how does he tap the tank so that the air doesn't feed, causing the thing to sputter? Is that simply a matter of tapping at the bottom and letting gravity keep the fuel feeding?

Yes, gravity feed is the trick in all the liquid fuel flame throwers.

* shouldn't the nozzle have some kind of air intake to assure a proper oxygen supply?

Doesn't need it. The fuel is getting all the oxygen it needs from atmosphere when it's shot out the nozzle.

thinkcooper · Post by **thinkcooper** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:07 pm

I've been using a gardening tool, attached to a propane tank, but it doesnt have the co2 tank attached or whatever it is, so it is only able to create a continuous flame as opposed to bursts of flame. Anybody know?

PM me, i'll tell you what you're missing.

One addittional thing, you can buy threaded brass or copper pipe to just about any length you want, so no soldering involved. Its pretty easy now, but the whistle valve is the most expensive component, and probably the most important.

The steam whistle valves are hard to find, and quite expensive. But they are designed to withstand high pressure and temperature, plus they can release a variable amount of gas, so the sound or flame ball can controlled by the lever.

buckethead alien · Post by **buckethead alien** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 2:08 pm

thinkcooper wrote: The steam whistle valves are hard to find, and quite expensive. But they are designed to withstand high pressure and temperature, plus they can release a variable amount of gas, so the sound or flame ball can controlled by the lever.

What do you all think about the "squeeze valve" on the bottom of this page?

http://www.flameengineering.com/Valves.html

thinkcooper · Post by **thinkcooper** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 2:40 pm

buckethead alien wrote:
thinkcooper wrote: The steam whistle valves are hard to find, and quite expensive. But they are designed to withstand high pressure and temperature, plus they can release a variable amount of gas, so the sound or flame ball can controlled by the lever.
What do you all think about the "squeeze valve" on the bottom of this page?

http://www.flameengineering.com/Valves.html

That looks like it would work.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:48 pm

buckethead alien wrote:
thinkcooper wrote:What do you all think about the "squeeze valve" on the bottom of this page?

http://www.flameengineering.com/Valves.html

From Source: "to ad to any Dragon Vapor Torch Kit."

Think its just a low-volume vapor based valve. Pull-valves (or called Whistle or Lever valves) are good for the quick on-off control and high volume that puts the liquid to use, not vapor. But I do like the internal needle-valve setting, thats what the thumb wheel is for, lets you keep a minimum ammount of fuel flowing through to keep it lit like a pilot. I had to design and build a separate feed to do that.

McMaster Carr http://www.mcmaster.com/ has them with the with the needed Buna-N O-rings and seals. Best source so far, please tell me if you find one better.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:55 pm

Badger wrote:Read Roland Tower's first post and floow the links. He's a young god in the making.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showth ... genumber=1

[/quote]

oh shit.

I want to make that... if they will just lift my ban from the golf course for my last flamethrower project.

Isotopia · Post by **Isotopia** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 7:31 pm

He's got the concept down; the use of PVC and compressed fuel gives me the willies. Roland may inadvertently become newsworthy someday becoming his own personal burning man.

Yep. Been discussed before. Probably a better idea to go with steel piping and compressed nitrogen - as suggested by Trey.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 8:14 pm

My initial reaction with PVC was a thought about static electricity buildup as the fuel flowed through the pipe. Then I figured what the hell, if there is a vapor leak that static will set of, the nozzle will set it off anyway. Then my thoughts turned to UV breakdown of the plastic. I probably whouldn't trust it for more than a year or so depending on the amount on sunlight it sees. Well, that depends on where the valve is. If the valve is before any PVC, no problem.

Tiahaar · Post by **Tiahaar** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:04 am

OOOooo, so this is way cool to fathom the methods behind the fire-throwers. My trike needs to be a fire breather next year...

thinkcooper · Post by **thinkcooper** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:54 am

Spectabillis, thanks for the link to McMaster-Carr! They look like a great resource for components. Have you seen any solenoid controlled brass valves for fluid/fuel in their catalog? How about any fluid couplings that can rotate on their axis?

thinkcooper · Post by **thinkcooper** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 9:26 am

I think this is the only forum I participate on that doesn't have an edit function- hmm..

oh well, anyway-

Spectabillis, do you also know if there is a resource like McMaster-Carr in California, or even better, in the south bay area?

Alpha · Post by **Alpha** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:21 pm

You can mail order from McMaster-Carr, or else check out Grainger (http://www.grainger.com) -- they have retail outlets in California as well as mail order.

Megaflow · Post by **Megaflow** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:11 am

Dont go with the cheaper ($35) buna oring whistle valve. The valve will get hot and you take a chance of melting the orings and that wouldnt be a good thing. Use a valve with a stainless spring and a brass seat. They are about $140.

Another thing is that on the system shown you arent trying to burn liquid propane you want to burn the expanded vapor, hence the expansion tank at the base to give that ball of flame rather than the paint can with a lighter type flame. The whisle valves do a good job at dumping the volume of the assembly very quickly. The smaller valve you had pictured wont dump the volume quick enough and I think you will be disappointed.

As far as the $750-$950 price tag for the Bonefire, think about the cost if you build one and dont do it correctly and someone gets hurt.

$140 whistle valve
$40 propane hose
$40 in metal
$150 in machining and welding
$30 in ignitor
$20 in flame cup
$20 in misc plumbing fittings
$50 accumulator tank
$50 metal polishing
$25 in actuation controls

Your talking $500 in parts and materials

Knowledge on who to

thinkcooper · Post by **thinkcooper** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:39 am

Megaflow is spot-on with that last post. What he didn't mention is how much time you'll spend hunting for all those bits and pieces and then diddling with all the components to get it right. There's a lot of trial and error designing/building the first one, then it starts getting easier once you've got a pattern that works. Bonefire's are a good way to go, they look great, work great, are safe and are going to hold up on the playa.

Tiahaar · Post by **Tiahaar** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:46 pm

Megaflow wrote:Your talking $500 in parts and materials

...and the satisfaction of building it right yourself...priceless.

True better a safe flamethrower (?) than a mobile time-bomb but this does seems like one of those playa things where building it should be a prerequisite to operating it. Plus I'm getting excited scheming how to build a custom special model. Money can't buy that.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:48 pm

You can get just the nozzle/valve/ignitor from bonefire and make the rest yourself. We did that ... and learned some things too.

Alpha · Post by **Alpha** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:07 pm

Has anyone considered adapting a paintball gun for flame? I know there's not much volume there, and you'd have to be careful of the O-rings, but it might be a cool effect.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:09 pm

geekster wrote:You can get just the nozzle/valve/ignitor from bonefire and make the rest yourself. We did that ... and learned some things too.

Hmmm... how much did that run you?

Was it liquid? Because from the expansion chamber it looks like its a vapor unit.

Flame throwers and propane canons

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