Does "love" mean no disagreements?

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:00 pm

Everybody loves somebody, does that mean you always see eye to eye? Does "respect" mean "conflict adverse"? Does "honoring the other" mean agreeing with every dumbshit thing that someone blurts out without thinking?

I'm just wondering.

Sensei · Post by **Sensei** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:04 pm

C'mon blyslv, you know I love you or you wouldn't have one of Sensei's kefiyahs. But geez, you ask the dumbest fucking questions ;)

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:22 pm

blyslv wrote: Does "honoring the other" mean agreeing with every dumbshit thing that someone blurts out without thinking?

No. Although with love you probably choose to disagree without using terms like dumbsh*t.

tisha2 · Post by **tisha2** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:24 pm

nope.

i feel lots of love for some folks i disagree with almost all the time.

for me, lately, the trick has been allowing myself to feel and give love openly and freely and letting go of feeling like that automatically puts some onus on the recipient altering their behavior to suit me...what's different, though, is learning to love whoever thrills my soul, but recognize that it doesn't necessarily mean I have to live with them or commit to being their partner. you can still love someone as your disagreeing with them, even love that they think so differently, but if your argueing because you're actually deep-down angry over some of your boundaries being violated, or expectations not being met (that you shouldn't have anyway), well, now, *that's* a different story...and probably just means changing the logistics of the relationship, and doesn't really have anything to do with *love*

and, I'm curious - are you the one blurting out dumbshit things without thinking, or the one wondering if you have to agree with them? hmmm...

primate · Post by **primate** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:48 pm

"you're either with me, or against me"

sparkletarte · Post by **sparkletarte** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:55 pm

What the other folks said, er, not the primate though.
I would insert a "does not" in your sentences- respect does not mean conflict adverse, etc, to make them be true, for me anyways.

What's the story, blyslv?

calicowboy925 · Post by **calicowboy925** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 4:57 pm

I think to loving successfully is COMPRIMISE.....you'll disagree at some point with any given person, handling it in a good way is the hard part. Mutual long term goals, and like Tisha said, not having deeper rooted probs with your mate make for a better experience. If you are new at love, just know, if it falls apart, you can hang your toothbrush with a wide variety of people and love them just as much.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:21 pm

I would say of course love doesn't mean agreeing all the time. In many cases, though, you might find yourself agreeing with someone you love more often than you might with people in general, at least initally. That is probably part of the attraction.

Part of love for me is being able to be vulnerable without fear. It is a matter of trust. It is being allowed to express an opinion that the other might not share without worry. It also means being willing to compromise to a greater extent than you might be willing to with people in general. This is also a manifestation of trust. Of course we all have our basic foundation of beliefs that we can not compromise without redefining who we are. Respecting that is another manifestation of trust ... and love.

The people I have loved have had opinions that have spanned the spectrum. When I disagreed, they would wonder why and want to learn what I saw that lead me to a different place and possibly offer something of their perspective and maybe we both ended up changing a little in the process. But mainly, for me, it is about trust and being okay with not expecting each other to be joined at the intellectual hip.

It is easy to be okay with disagreeing with someone you trust completely. At least that has been my experiance so far. I miss love.

GuinivereElise · Post by **GuinivereElise** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:36 pm

well said, geekster...

Allowing oneself to be vulnerable... wow. That's some serious shit. And finding someone to be vulnerable with and to? Even more serious.

My definition would include, not compromise, but agreeing to disagree. If I can disagree with you, and *still* love you, then it's all said and done, right there. I mean, you adore Bush, and I adore... well... anyone else, and I still have a decided interest in your well-being and still want to see you experience the ferocious pleasures of life? Profound love...

But, seems to me, there's a huge difference between loving someone and being IN love with them (of course). Interesting to note how that perhaps changes the rules...

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:37 pm

does love me etc.... no

primate · Post by **primate** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:57 pm

sparkletarte wrote:What the other folks said, er, not the primate though.
I would insert a "does not" in your sentences- respect does not mean conflict adverse, etc, to make them be true, for me anyways.

What's the story, blyslv?

You must be against me then.
curses.

samtzu · Post by **samtzu** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:32 pm

Geekster wrote (and GuinivereElise seconded):

Part of love for me is being able to be vulnerable without fear. It is a matter of trust. It is being allowed to express an opinion that the other might not share without worry. It also means being willing to compromise to a greater extent than you might be willing to with people in general. This is also a manifestation of trust. Of course we all have our basic foundation of beliefs that we can not compromise without redefining who we are. Respecting that is another manifestation of trust ... and love.

The people I have loved have had opinions that have spanned the spectrum. When I disagreed, they would wonder why and want to learn what I saw that lead me to a different place and possibly offer something of their perspective and maybe we both ended up changing a little in the process. But mainly, for me, it is about trust and being okay with not expecting each other to be joined at the intellectual hip.

It is easy to be okay with disagreeing with someone you trust completely. At least that has been my experiance so far. I miss love.

Amen

I love my children... fiercely! But I love them the way that Geekster describes in his post. As a result, they are allowed to love me back without fear. We are open with each other and trusting. We've all made mistakes with each other, but the acceceptance that we all have for one another allows us all to heal.

In my last romantic relationship that trust was abused, and as a result I have shied away from any "entanglements" (read: Love), so I very much agree with the last sentence... very much... I miss Love

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:08 pm

samtzu wrote:In my last romantic relationship that trust was abused, and as a result I have shied away from any "entanglements" (read: Love), so I very much agree with the last sentence... very much... I miss Love

I know how that feels, that abuse of trust. When one realizes they are no longer emotionally "safe" in a relationship, it is almost as if you can hear the doors slamming shut. It is a betrayal at a level so deep that it can leave one with a calloused heart for a very long time. What can even be worse is to be trapped in a relationship with no good way out. When every option leads to disaster it can try one's strength of character. It's so hard, though, once one has been hung out there to trust again. But secretly I think we need to, and want to, even while we try to make ourselfs not to. I think in there somewhere is hope. But you are free to disagree.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:14 pm

Distill it down to the obvious.

If they disagree with you then they're an idiot.

Send them packing.

It'll only get worse.

samtzu · Post by **samtzu** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:24 pm

Geekster wrote:

I know how that feels, that abuse of trust. When one realizes they are no longer emotionally "safe" in a relationship, it is almost as if you can hear the doors slamming shut. It is a betrayal at a level so deep that it can leave one with a calloused heart for a very long time. What can even be worse is to be trapped in a relationship with no good way out. When every option leads to disaster it can try one's strength of character. It's so hard, though, once one has been hung out there to trust again. But secretly I think we need to, and want to, even while we try to make ourselfs not to. I think in there somewhere is hope. But you are free to disagree.

Again, amen

The first highlighting describes my marriage. I worked at love for the last six years of it... fighting to keep the family together. Being a child of divorce, I knew what it would do to the kids. She felt she could "do better" (feels great to be told that) and after three more marriages, she's doing fine. I, on the other hand, have been through one good, two bad, relationships in the last fourteen years. And for the last five, none at all. Yes.. we do need to trust... and I will... just a matter of when and with whom. Someday.

One thing I know: the woman I finally connect with will be the same trusting soul as I am, and will allow those disagreements to exist without destroying the trust. She will also have the same creative drive and willingness to explore the outer reaches of conception. Ahhh... some day.

Geekster, thanks. You've given me a good direction to ponder in... a way of looking. I appreciate it.

And, Badger... thank you. I have enjoyed you from the first moment we met by the Ranger Shack. I'll give you advice all the serious thought it deserves... by the way, how does Iso feel about this?

Sam

samtzu · Post by **samtzu** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:24 pm

and Badger... you know that should read "Your advice", don't you?

nipples · Post by **nipples** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:37 pm

For the benefit of others whom have not read him before on this site, blslv was talking about himself as the "dumbshit.... he would not disparage her (I do believe).

I really liked that tisha2 wrote "what's different, though, is learning to love whoever thrills my soul, but recognize that it doesn't necessarily mean I have to live with them or commit to being their partner."

Just the other day at work, I had reflected with Quinn that it is silly, really to live with your lover if sex is the primary reason you would commit time with them at all.... after all, do you live with your bowling partner?! This when thinking of sex as an activity instead of an expression of love.....

Which dovetails into my answer of the main question, of disagreements & love. Any disagreement is probably minor enough to overlook if the sum of greater-than-less-than remains in total a postive number. Conversely, any disagreement is probably minor enough to be the straw that broke the camels back..... I've blown up with freinds over very small things when allowing steam to build. It is disturbing enough that I like to aire stuff early if it "gets my goat".

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:53 pm

Nipples, once again I'm looking at your avatar and trying to imagine you wearing the bunny suit while trying to get something 'serious' off your shoulder.

If only they'd mandate such a requrement for presedential debates.

Or arms reduction talks.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:57 pm

If no one ever disagreed, the world would be a very boring place indeed.

samtzu · Post by **samtzu** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:03 pm

The insight on this thread is incredible. Badger, you are sooooo right!!! Instead of this assinine "Defense of Marriage" amendment to the Consititution, they should start pushing for the "Bunny Suit" amendment. It would make the whole process a hell of a lot more palatable than it is now... Maybe with Ivy and friends belly dancing around them...

Wow... I really can see it... Kerry and Moron in Bunnys Suits! Ugggh, but then GW would win. Those beady little eyes do have a bunny look to them... would he be the "cuddly" candidate? hmmmmmm.

On the same note, this total bimbo at work came up to me today and commented on my picture on the wall (GW and the Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama is smiling, holding his hands in prayer, while Moron is talking at him. Over the Dalai Lama's head, I put the thought caption bubble, "Must not slap, must not slap") and she told me that she was voting for Dubya because he was "cute".

The Earth has officially entered the new Dark Ages.

nipples · Post by **nipples** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:44 pm

Yeah, I agree about the clothing thing... it is disarming & would probably not be deemed "respectful" of such things as hate.. etc... to wear a bunny suit to a debate.

Last night I held my grandaughter (on MY 46th birthday!), and she had on the most ridiculously obvious plushie Burningman pants (with feet!) I have ever seen. . May cruise the infants isle for design ideas!

Back to the topic for me! When I'd said it was disturbing, it has been disturbing mostly to me.... a "big deal" to finally DISAGREE. But to them, it was like water off a ducks' back. No biggee, and they forgave me instantly & even encouraged me to speak up earlier.

The worst thing about allowing it to get to boiling stage (camel/straw/back) is that it is really not about the straw that broke it, but merely holding fear instead of love as the filter I'd been looking through? Dunno.... but it is a grudge thing & not pretty to carry around. It is pretty cool though to in a few days realize there was another way of looking at what had transpired.

So yes, disagree with your partner & let her/him with you, too... as you would your bowling partner, whom you secretly love as well, and have been mad at, too. Come to think of it, where DID I bury my bowling partner?!

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:02 am

Thanks everybody. My questions were prompted by the Heather Graham thread, not by any situation in my life. (I'm deeply in love with a wonderful person and we know how to disagree and talk with repsect).

It was prompted by musings about on-line discourse, and how sometimes people express themselves with great force and vigor but not a lot of substance, or they say something extremely ... stupid. I can call them on it without rancor, as can many people here, which is one reason why people attracted to burningman are becoming more and more of my social universe. There is no group think enforced, and when its inklings rear its head, it can be addressed.

But of course by using the word "love" with scant explanation, people took it to mean the most popular "love" in our culture, a romanatic, sexual relationship between two people. What's nice about many peeps however, is that there can be so many different kinds of love.

btw sensei, that kaffiyeh rocked! It went extremely well with several of my favorite outfits! But blyslv wonders, for what the reference to onese'f in the third person?

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:40 am

samtzu wrote:Wow... I really can see it... Kerry and Moron in Bunnys Suits! Ugggh, but then GW would win. Those beady little eyes do have a bunny look to them... would he be the "cuddly" candidate? hmmmmmm.

Actually, I think the principle could work for any disagreement. Bickering with your love? Quick! Grab a couple of clown noses, put them on and go at it. Still not working? Break out the wigs. Still not there yet? Okay, add the suits and shoes. If THAT doesn't work ... then just take the argument outside on the street in full clown getup.

samtzu · Post by **samtzu** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:44 am

The Geekster wrote:

Actually, I think the principle could work for any disagreement. Bickering with your love? Quick! Grab a couple of clown noses, put them on and go at it. Still not working? Break out the wigs. Still not there yet? Okay, add the suits and shoes. If THAT doesn't work ... then just take the argument outside on the street in full clown getup.

I think we've got it, here. This could be the Burner Therapy Method. Full Bunny Suits for all sessions...

Nipples!! Where can we get a shitload of those suits? Uhhhh... wholesale?

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:06 am

All of this got me to remembering my Pop. We used to argue. And sometimes it kinda sucked too. I would become "knucklehead" and he would be the "stubborn old jackass". But the next day we would be back in the truck riding to work together. I think those were the best 3 years of my life. Coming home after years of living abroad and on the opposite coast since leaving home at 17, then 30-something and getting to really know Pop as an adult. His life dream was to someday own his own business and have me working with him and his last days in this life were the realization of it. Yeah, we had some good ones. I never could make him understand that putting the country back on the gold standard would limit economic growth to the extent that new gold reserves were exploited or by artifically jinking the price of gold around to the point where it got comical (that was one of our more famous points of disagreement). But I loved that old man with all my heart and his illness and passing was hard and it took years before I could put his picture on my desk and look at it and smile rather than tear up.

I almost hate to say it but I learned so much from his passing. That in itself was the one final gift he gave me. He left me with his business. And I ran it for a while as a monument to him but it got harder and harder to go in that shop. I kept a set of his work clothes hanging in the back. I don't know why but I couldn't bear to part with them. The hardest thing I ever did in my life was letting go of that shop. He placed his life dream in my hands. But it was his dream, not mine. It was hard to open those hands and let that dream fall because it felt like I was abandoning him and one thing he never did was abandon my sister and I. Though Mom and Dad had divorced when I was only 3, he got out of the Air Force and stayed right there instead of just going back home to Nebraska like he could have. He never lived more than 15 miles away, never missed a support check, and for some reason never remarried until we were grown up and on our own. His family was him, my sister and I. It was too hard to let his dream go ... but I had to follow my own and I did.

Once I made that decision, I almost felt him smile down on me. My one final lesson. Follow my own dreams and don't hang on someone elses cross. Now I look at his picture and smile. Sometimes I miss him still, like when I am faced with some big decision. And sometimes, when I am all alone, I go outside, sit on the deck, look up and tell him I miss him.

No, you don't have to always agree with someone you love.

stayfrosty · Post by **stayfrosty** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:33 am

blyslv wrote:Everybody loves somebody, does that mean you always see eye to eye? Does "respect" mean "conflict adverse"? Does "honoring the other" mean agreeing with every dumbshit thing that someone blurts out without thinking?

I'm just wondering.

no way in fucking hell. if you're dating a very insecure person yes. They can't deal with dissent. But interesting people like it.

um... how old are you blyslv? cause my ex, who was 19, seemed to think that one shouldn't ever argue. VERY unrealistic. but that's her to a T... But I'd just get mad at her cause she was a manipulative poser and didn't need to be. And another girl I went out with got so freaked out at our first and now she's dealing with someone that gets so mad he screams at her, and can never deescalate an argument.

There isn't anything more annoying than a 'yes' man. Don't you agree?

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:52 am

Please read the entire thread before commenting. Or not, far be it from me to interfer with anybody's experience.

Me? I'm old enough to know better and still too young to care!

Bonus points if you know where the above line came from.

sparkletarte · Post by **sparkletarte** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:55 am

I like your story geekster. Did you sell the business to someone else? If you did, (or even if you didn't) I'd say that you didn't let his dream fall or die- you simply kept his dream going but through someone else, which I'm sure he would prefer rather than have it turn from his dream to your drugery.

If you just closed the business, you still kept his dream alive- I'm sure most parents wish for their children to be happy.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:00 pm

I first offered the business to a protoge' of his that he always spoke highly of. He thanked me but turned down the offer saying he really didn't have the working capital it would require (he was pretty much living hand-to-mouth) I then offered the equipment and inventory to a guy Pop had worked with for years and had a business of his own who bought most of the heavy gear from me. I then closed the doors, removed the sign, and went home ... a small house 10 miles outside of a town of 300 on 30 acres of woods and swamp and stayed there for about a month. Then, as the last of the snow of the blizzard of '96 was melting away, packed up all my shit and went to Silicon Valley to chase my dream.

I now have a job I love working with the best people I could ever hope to work with, survived the dot-bomb, and have two of the most beautiful little kids anyone could ever hope for (even if my daughter DID moon the entire class yesterday ... have to talk to her about that). Pop would be proud. But I am kindof in the same mode that Samtzu was in for 6 years. Glida Radner hit the nail on the head when she said "It's always something.".

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:06 pm

geekster wrote: have two of the most beautiful little kids anyone could ever hope for (even if my daughter DID moon the entire class yesterday ... have to talk to her about that).

Doesn't the 2nd pretty much prove the first.

Sorry, but someone had to say it.

[aside]Great, you've probably made a third enemy. Can't you learn to keep your fishy mouth shut![/aside]

Does "love" mean no disagreements?

Does "love" mean no disagreements?

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Re: Does "love" mean no disagreements?

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