How to spot undercover cops?

[Homiesinheaven]

They actually busted him? Seems like a whiteout would be great for just melting away.

or this type of melting away:

[AdamOfTheRedEarth]

Okay I am going to try one more. This one was inspired by some of the posts in this thread.

If you suspect someone is an undercover, make suspicious motions and have something wrapped in foil or other suspicious, small packaging. Do so in plain view of the suspected undercover, and wait for the takedown. Obviously you have to not have anything illegal, and it's probably a good idea that your "suspicious" item is something obviously not illegal that can't be misidentified as an illegal substance. Of course you are running the risk of pissing the cops off enough that they might plant something on you or risk other trumped up charges.

Alternatively, for those of us (myself included) that don't do illegal drugs, but just want to meet cool people and have amazing experiences at burning man: How would you feel if you spent half a day with someone you met and had a lot of fun and they seemed really cool, but in the end you found out they were really just an undercover (not by being busted yourself, maybe they busted someone else or gave themselves away)? Would you feel like you wasted half a day? Would the experiences still be valid and worthwhile because cops are still people? Would you have no trust left for new people at burning man and only hang out with people you already know?

I should be out shopping for burning man supplies haha....

[wh..sh]

Would the experiences still be valid and worthwhile because cops are still people? Would you have no trust left for new people at burning man and only hang out with people you already know?

Who are we to tell you which experiences of yours is "valid" and "worthwhile"? If you have fun conversing with a cop and have fun doing so, big deal... who the fuck cares?
You are acting like a melodramatic, hollywood, damsel in distress who finds out at the end of 2 hour movie that "the man she was in love with" was actually *gasp* a cop!

How would you feel if you spent half a day with someone you met and had a lot of fun and they seemed really cool, but in the end you found out they were really just an undercover (not by being busted yourself, maybe they busted someone else or gave themselves away)? Would you feel like you wasted half a day?

Hmm... if you are so worried about wasting your time, my suggestion is, get them laid as soon as possible.

I should be out shopping for burning man supplies haha....

yes, you should.

[BBadger]

Okay I am going to try one more. This one was inspired by some of the posts in this thread.

If you suspect someone is an undercover, make suspicious motions and have something wrapped in foil or other suspicious, small packaging. Do so in plain view of the suspected undercover, and wait for the takedown. Obviously you have to not have anything illegal, and it's probably a good idea that your "suspicious" item is something obviously not illegal that can't be misidentified as an illegal substance. Of course you are running the risk of pissing the cops off enough that they might plant something on you or risk other trumped up charges.

What a good idea! I hope a lot of dumbasses try to pull shit like that and ruin their burns!

That's right! Ruin your burn when the officer drags you away for suspicion of having drugs, or maybe even just on charges of having "drug paraphernalia." Then--in addition to wasting your time trying to explain yourself and your lame little ruse that nobody would believe to an unsympathetic cop ("oh officer, this wasn't really drug paraphernalia, you can send this to the lab! I was just trying to lure you guys into revealing yourself!")--you can pay a few thousand dollars defending yourself in court, trying to prove that you didn't actually have any drugs or paraphernalia in spite of the officer's testimony, and your lack of any hard evidence proving the contrary.

I really do encourage fucktards to do this. Get your dumb asses off the playa. Good riddance!

[skippy3k]

Good lord, what is with your hard-on for undercover cops?

And if you are suggesting to "test" them by pretending to be passing foil wrapped narcotics, why the fuck are you wasting their time? Or even your time? Talk about poking the tiger. Dude, move on already. Spend less time looking for cops and more time enjoying the event.

[BBadger]

Good lord, what is with your hard-on for undercover cops?

And if you are suggesting to "test" them by pretending to be passing foil wrapped narcotics, why the fuck are you wasting their time? Or even your time? Talk about poking the tiger. Dude, move on already. Spend less time looking for cops and more time enjoying the event.

I'm starting to think that AdamOfTheRedEarth is just some undercover Pershing County "mole" trying to bring in the gold for the department.

[theCryptofishist]

Maybe it's time for us to accuse him of being a cop again. Some sort of fishing expedition, perhaps.

[AdamOfTheRedEarth]

Yeah yeah, I get it, I'm the only one who "has a hard on" or thinks about these things just for the sake of thinking about them. Like I said before, it's just fascinating to me. So many different angles and possibilities. Anyway, I've exhausted my own questions and this thread is getting to be less "forum discussion" and more "let's attack the o.p. because we're paranoid or don't like this topic". Peace love and happiness to you all, even the assholes on here, come by our camp and have a shot of jaeger or fireball with me

[ZaphodBurner]

There are valid reasons to watch out for undercover cops even if you're not breaking the law. It's the principle.

They're undercover. They're trying to catch you doing something illegal, and they don't want you to see it. Big Brother Is Watching, and he doesn't want you to know. In fact, he wants to try to trap you.

That, whether I ever break a law in my life, is a legitimate reason to watch out for and learn to detect undercover cops. Especially corrupt ones.

The old trick was two touristy, hippie couples to ask you to trade weed for shrooms. Eventually, some dipshit will say, sure, or, "No, but, I think there's a guy in my camp who might be able to help you out..."

My wife is lying on a sofa, nude, snoozing in the sun, and there's some dude literally in a polo shirt asking me if there are nudists, what Ecstacy is, whether all of these people are on Ecstacy, and where to get some. That's not a cop. That's just a reason why veterans disdain tourists. Not sure about the Officer Weigel type who asked us if we knew where to get MDMA or Methamphetamines.

Leave me the fuck alone. There ought to be a place in America where freedom-loving, responsible, tax-paying citizens and veterans can go out and do to themselves whatever they wish without Nanny Statist liberal cops sniffing our assholes with dogs and undercover agents.

Since LEO types are allegedly reading this, this is for you: Hi, and thanks for keeping us safe and for removing the real-deal actual assholes. Having said that, I served in the Marine Corps, I'm an American native, I'm a taxpayer and I'm a pilot. I'm not a bad guy. If you're an undercover cop or trying to entrap me, you're a Stalinist tool who should be busy stopping rapes and child molestation instead of the stupid shit they've got you out doing against citizens of your own so-called free society. You're a commie fucking spy, is what you are. Liberal motherfuckers like you are exactly the ones the government can count on if they decide to repeal the 2nd Amendment because you love your job so much you'll fuck with the rights of citizens just to feel good about yourself. You'd probably not kill your relatives for owning guns but you'd kill your neighbors and give your relatives the guns. Your legitimate peers--cops who deal with actual crimes--probably hate you as much as freedom-loving Americans do. Furthermore, I'm violently allergic to dogs so if you ask to search my vehicle with one--I'll be living in it for the week--I'm going to have to say no. I'm posting it here to use it in court against you if I tell you no and you fuck with me because of it.

There was this cop in Corvallis who won all kinds of awards and recognition for the huge number of DUII arrests, until they realized he was busting people who blew clean just to win some sort of bonus they had going around to see who could pop the most drunks. Well, if you had a beer that day, hell... you're under the influence of alcohol, busted, career potentially ruined, and the courts got to sort it out. The cop got a kudos for another job well done. Then they found out how fucking corrupt he was and fired him. We know that you, LEOs, know people like that, and for the rest of you--the good cops--I plead with you to not to encourage them to screw with adults who are just trying to be truly free for one week each year. If that's too much to ask, then rip the American flag off your uniform and replace it with a hammer and sickle.

I've never had a bad experience with uniformed police on the playa. I welcome their presence. Thank you for your attention. Semper Fi, and God Bless America.

[Roberto Dobbisano]

There are valid reasons to watch out for undercover cops even if you're not breaking the law. It's the principle.

They're undercover. They're trying to catch you doing something illegal, and they don't want you to see it. Big Brother Is Watching, and he doesn't want you to know. In fact, he wants to try to trap you.

That, whether I ever break a law in my life, is a legitimate reason to watch out for and learn to detect undercover cops. Especially corrupt ones.

The old trick was two touristy, hippie couples to ask you to trade weed for shrooms. Eventually, some dipshit will say, sure, or, "No, but, I think there's a guy in my camp who might be able to help you out..."

My wife is lying on a sofa, nude, snoozing in the sun, and there's some dude literally in a polo shirt asking me if there are nudists, what Ecstacy is, whether all of these people are on Ecstacy, and where to get some. That's not a cop. That's just a reason why veterans disdain tourists. Not sure about the Officer Weigel type who asked us if we knew where to get MDMA or Methamphetamines.

Leave me the fuck alone. There ought to be a place in America where freedom-loving, responsible, tax-paying citizens and veterans can go out and do to themselves whatever they wish without Nanny Statist liberal cops sniffing our assholes with dogs and undercover agents.

Since LEO types are allegedly reading this, this is for you: Hi, and thanks for keeping us safe and for removing the real-deal actual assholes. Having said that, I served in the Marine Corps, I'm an American native, I'm a taxpayer and I'm a pilot. I'm not a bad guy. If you're an undercover cop or trying to entrap me, you're a Stalinist tool who should be busy stopping rapes and child molestation instead of the stupid shit they've got you out doing against citizens of your own so-called free society. You're a commie fucking spy, is what you are. Liberal motherfuckers like you are exactly the ones the government can count on if they decide to repeal the 2nd Amendment because you love your job so much you'll fuck with the rights of citizens just to feel good about yourself. You'd probably not kill your relatives for owning guns but you'd kill your neighbors and give your relatives the guns. Your legitimate peers--cops who deal with actual crimes--probably hate you as much as freedom-loving Americans do. Furthermore, I'm violently allergic to dogs so if you ask to search my vehicle with one--I'll be living in it for the week--I'm going to have to say no. I'm posting it here to use it in court against you if I tell you no and you fuck with me because of it.

There was this cop in Corvallis who won all kinds of awards and recognition for the huge number of DUII arrests, until they realized he was busting people who blew clean just to win some sort of bonus they had going around to see who could pop the most drunks. Well, if you had a beer that day, hell... you're under the influence of alcohol, busted, career potentially ruined, and the courts got to sort it out. The cop got a kudos for another job well done. Then they found out how fucking corrupt he was and fired him. We know that you, LEOs, know people like that, and for the rest of you--the good cops--I plead with you to not to encourage them to screw with adults who are just trying to be truly free for one week each year. If that's too much to ask, then rip the American flag off your uniform and replace it with a hammer and sickle.

I've never had a bad experience with uniformed police on the playa. I welcome their presence. Thank you for your attention. Semper Fi, and God Bless America.

+1000



dear OP, WE ARE STILL NOT AMUSED BY YOUR STUPID FUCK TROLLING.

go get a donut or something....Geez....I liked Pershing County ALOT better when Ron Skinner was Sheriff....the new guy is a douche.

[Ugly Dougly]

Maybe it's time for us to accuse him of being a cop again. Some sort of fishing expedition, perhaps.

That's simple-minded enough for any hippy to come up with.

[Hoolie]

My camp is usually set up on a street front so we can watch the endlessly interesting parade go by. On a few different occasions, a small group of people (usually 2 or 3) walked by and ostensibly asked for "directions" thusly: "Can you tell us where to find 4:20 & J ?" I think all of those people were cops.

[MacGlenver]

My camp is usually set up on a street front so we can watch the endlessly interesting parade go by. On a few different occasions, a small group of people (usually 2 or 3) walked by and ostensibly asked for "directions" thusly: "Can you tell us where to find 4:20 & J ?" I think all of those people were cops.

Hah, thats a funny way to ask for it.

I say if you are resourceful enough to bring a week's worth of supplies out to the middle of the desert to camp, you should be resourceful enough to bring your own "junk" out there too. Anyone begging is either poorly prepared or is suspicious. Neither one warrants any helpfulness from you.

[skippy3k]

.... and this thread is getting to be less "forum discussion" and more "let's attack the o.p. because we're paranoid or don't like this topic".

No, it's just that the "discussion" part of this died out a page or so ago. What you sense as an attack is merely some people tiring of trying to find some substance to hang on to with your "what if" scenarios.

Zaphod - Wow. Though I can't really agree with all you wrote, I will agree with your opening sentence. There are valid reasons to watch out for undercover cops and be aware of our rights in the process. This guy just seemed to be intent on finding ways to draw them out or see what he can get away with. I'm sure someone with your background and experience would agree that it's unnecessary and foolish to do so.

[stinkyfoot]

Alternatively, for those of us (myself included) that don't do illegal drugs, but just want to meet cool people and have amazing experiences at burning man: How would you feel if you spent half a day with someone you met and had a lot of fun and they seemed really cool, but in the end you found out they were really just an undercover (not by being busted yourself, maybe they busted someone else or gave themselves away)? Would you feel like you wasted half a day? Would the experiences still be valid and worthwhile because cops are still people? Would you have no trust left for new people at burning man and only hang out with people you already know?

I think that's a good question. Cops busting obviously fucked up out of control people or people openly using is a legitimate means of enforcing the peace, even if it involves undercover spotters in a crowd pointing out dumb-asses to uniformed officers. I'm a fairly wholesome individual and I, myself, wouldn't be comfortable in an environment where people just use drugs openly. (I think that story of the naked-ass, dancing cops is kind of hilarious.)

But I am also definitely not morally comfortable with the level of deception that undercovers have been reported to work up to and, much like the open use of drugs in public, deceiving individuals in this way is not an activity that I want to be involved in. So I would feel as if I were wrongly exploited if I found out that I spent a whole day with an undercover officer. That is especially true if the cop were able to entrap someone in my presence.

Ultimately, anyone can fake a loose attitude that seems sufficiently burney but you can't fake my type of value set or my earnest nature and I would have a hard time not believing that an undercover choosing to hang out with me would be using me for some kind of fucked up cover.

Edit: And one other thing, you've got to be a little crazy if you can get into a crowd of people and be friendfriendfriend with them while intending to bust them for drugs, that has got to take a serious level of cognitive dissonance. I'm not a huge fan of the crazy.

My camp is usually set up on a street front so we can watch the endlessly interesting parade go by. On a few different occasions, a small group of people (usually 2 or 3) walked by and ostensibly asked for "directions" thusly: "Can you tell us where to find 4:20 & J ?" I think all of those people were cops.

I wonder how disappointed they get when you give them actual directions to 4:20 and J.

[Hoolie]

Hah, thats a funny way to ask for it.

It's clever, I'll give them that. I think red flags should be raised up high when someone you've just met asks you where to get drugs, especially if it's the very first thing they say to you.

I wonder how disappointed they get when you give them actual directions to 4:20 and J.

That's exactly what we did each time, and they did seem a bit disappointed.

[AdamOfTheRedEarth]

There are valid reasons to watch out for undercover cops even if you're not breaking the law. It's the principle.

They're undercover. They're trying to catch you doing something illegal, and they don't want you to see it. Big Brother Is Watching, and he doesn't want you to know. In fact, he wants to try to trap you.

That, whether I ever break a law in my life, is a legitimate reason to watch out for and learn to detect undercover cops. Especially corrupt ones.

The old trick was two touristy, hippie couples to ask you to trade weed for shrooms. Eventually, some dipshit will say, sure, or, "No, but, I think there's a guy in my camp who might be able to help you out..."

My wife is lying on a sofa, nude, snoozing in the sun, and there's some dude literally in a polo shirt asking me if there are nudists, what Ecstacy is, whether all of these people are on Ecstacy, and where to get some. That's not a cop. That's just a reason why veterans disdain tourists. Not sure about the Officer Weigel type who asked us if we knew where to get MDMA or Methamphetamines.

Leave me the fuck alone. There ought to be a place in America where freedom-loving, responsible, tax-paying citizens and veterans can go out and do to themselves whatever they wish without Nanny Statist liberal cops sniffing our assholes with dogs and undercover agents.

Since LEO types are allegedly reading this, this is for you: Hi, and thanks for keeping us safe and for removing the real-deal actual assholes. Having said that, I served in the Marine Corps, I'm an American native, I'm a taxpayer and I'm a pilot. I'm not a bad guy. If you're an undercover cop or trying to entrap me, you're a Stalinist tool who should be busy stopping rapes and child molestation instead of the stupid shit they've got you out doing against citizens of your own so-called free society. You're a commie fucking spy, is what you are. Liberal motherfuckers like you are exactly the ones the government can count on if they decide to repeal the 2nd Amendment because you love your job so much you'll fuck with the rights of citizens just to feel good about yourself. You'd probably not kill your relatives for owning guns but you'd kill your neighbors and give your relatives the guns. Your legitimate peers--cops who deal with actual crimes--probably hate you as much as freedom-loving Americans do. Furthermore, I'm violently allergic to dogs so if you ask to search my vehicle with one--I'll be living in it for the week--I'm going to have to say no. I'm posting it here to use it in court against you if I tell you no and you fuck with me because of it.

There was this cop in Corvallis who won all kinds of awards and recognition for the huge number of DUII arrests, until they realized he was busting people who blew clean just to win some sort of bonus they had going around to see who could pop the most drunks. Well, if you had a beer that day, hell... you're under the influence of alcohol, busted, career potentially ruined, and the courts got to sort it out. The cop got a kudos for another job well done. Then they found out how fucking corrupt he was and fired him. We know that you, LEOs, know people like that, and for the rest of you--the good cops--I plead with you to not to encourage them to screw with adults who are just trying to be truly free for one week each year. If that's too much to ask, then rip the American flag off your uniform and replace it with a hammer and sickle.

I've never had a bad experience with uniformed police on the playa. I welcome their presence. Thank you for your attention. Semper Fi, and God Bless America.

Great post! I especially like the one about how cops can effectively fuck up your life by charging you with DUI even when you didn't blow over the legal limit. This happened to me, and it got reduced to negligent driving 2nd degree but the charge still effectively counts a DUI arrest no matter what.

The rest of your post I agree with also, which is what I was saying about how it's intriguing to me that the cops spend so much money and resources on this event. That gave me a funny thought, what if absolutely no one got busted or ticketed or anything at all for the entire event. How could they justify their presence then?

Alternatively, for those of us (myself included) that don't do illegal drugs, but just want to meet cool people and have amazing experiences at burning man: How would you feel if you spent half a day with someone you met and had a lot of fun and they seemed really cool, but in the end you found out they were really just an undercover (not by being busted yourself, maybe they busted someone else or gave themselves away)? Would you feel like you wasted half a day? Would the experiences still be valid and worthwhile because cops are still people? Would you have no trust left for new people at burning man and only hang out with people you already know?

I think that's a good question. Cops busting obviously fucked up out of control people or people openly using is a legitimate means of enforcing the peace, even if it involves undercover spotters in a crowd pointing out dumb-asses to uniformed officers. I'm a fairly wholesome individual and I, myself, wouldn't be comfortable in an environment where people just use drugs openly. (I think that story of the naked-ass, dancing cops is kind of hilarious.)

But I am also definitely not morally comfortable with the level of deception that undercovers have been reported to work up to and, much like the open use of drugs in public, deceiving individuals in this way is not an activity that I want to be involved in. So I would feel as if I were wrongly exploited if I found out that I spent a whole day with an undercover officer. That is especially true if the cop were able to entrap someone in my presence.

Ultimately, anyone can fake a loose attitude that seems sufficiently burney but you can't fake my type of value set or my earnest nature and I would have a hard time not believing that an undercover choosing to hang out with me would be using me for some kind of fucked up cover.

Thank you, that's what I was getting at.

[gyre]

I'm a fairly wholesome individual and I, myself, wouldn't be comfortable in an environment where people just use drugs openly.

So you've never been ... anywhere?

[JovReef]

My camp is usually set up on a street front so we can watch the endlessly interesting parade go by. On a few different occasions, a small group of people (usually 2 or 3) walked by and ostensibly asked for "directions" thusly: "Can you tell us where to find 4:20 & J ?" I think all of those people were cops.

Oh wow! Someone asked me that last year and I totally did not connect the dots I gave them directions. Wow I'm going to go over here and sit in a corner now.

[junglesmacks]

Why don't we ask our old pal Daniel Crowe what an undercover looks like?

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=35977

[teardropper]

BM is money for LEO. There are at least five different and separate agencies in BRC. They have no moral problem with your joint, it's $1100 in their bank account when they catch you being stupid. They will take your debit or credit card. That is why the most popular drugs are ingestibles, those that don't require fire. Or so I hear. Besides, there are few tests for anything but THC, the most benign and medically legal in most western states. Curious, ain't it?

[Savannah]

My camp is usually set up on a street front so we can watch the endlessly interesting parade go by. On a few different occasions, a small group of people (usually 2 or 3) walked by and ostensibly asked for "directions" thusly: "Can you tell us where to find 4:20 & J ?" I think all of those people were cops.

Oh wow! Someone asked me that last year and I totally did not connect the dots I gave them directions. Wow I'm going to go over here and sit in a corner now.

That would have sailed over my head, too.

[some seeing eye]

Please Burners, do not try to antagonize or trick the playa cops.

People think up stuff like this when they are in high school and bored as fuck. Then they start a interesting job or college and discover there are more challenging things than antagonizing cops. Really want something interesting? Join the Peace Corps, no Americorps is not that.

Instead you could focus on how you are going to meet strangers, keep in touch with them over time, make fantastic costumes, devise gifts no one has ever thought of, manage your bar and kitchen within the rules, build structures that don't blow over, make an awesome grey water evaporating system, learn about solar energy, desert ecology, how to build and run a wilderness power system, how to build temporary community, learn construction skills, creating interactive art projects, how to make connections with participants from other countries, how to clean up moop in dust drifts, how to challenge your self psychically, how to make new art, ...

At Burning Man, we are not in high school anymore trying to think of how to outwit cops.

And if you are in a solid non-altered state of mind, chat up the cops. How's it going? Have you been before? How does it compare to your home town work? What is it like to work for one week with a group from different backgrounds, agencies and towns? How you dealing with the dust? What do you think of the event? What worries you the most about what you are seeing? What do you like about it? What would you change and how? Are you getting enough support and information from the organizers? How is collaboration with emergency services and the rangers? Question them! Do some research. Be interesting and interested!

I chatted with a BLM LEO in Center Camp, and he was a little shy, but it was positive. BLM has walked into a camp I was visiting and it was disconcerting until they announced they were concerned about a shower on street side that had no grey water capture. A-OK BLM! I've flagged down a LEO vehicle with their radio connection to ESD to send medical to help a man down in the deep playa. Dude did not die because of LEO being able to radio ESD. I'm all for less LEO and more ranger, and not being a dick or stupid is how to get that.

[maladroit]

I'm gonna sound like a self-righteous prick here, but I've never needed drugs to generate creativity and enjoyment of life. And Burning Man is probably the place you'd be least likely to need them. Therefore I'm not going to have any trouble with police, because I'll be riding clean the whole time.

At the same time (in CA of course), I've seen MJ used countless times and have interacted with many users, and absolutely believe it is incredibly less harmful than most federally legal recreational substances, and should be legalized. However, using it illegally isn't a step towards making it legal.

[theCryptofishist]

Please Burners, do not try to antagonize or trick the playa cops.

People think up stuff like this when they are in high school and bored as fuck. Then they start a interesting job or college and discover there are more challenging things than antagonizing cops. Really want something interesting? Join the Peace Corps, no Americorps is not that.

Instead you could focus on how you are going to meet strangers, keep in touch with them over time, make fantastic costumes, devise gifts no one has ever thought of, manage your bar and kitchen within the rules, build structures that don't blow over, make an awesome grey water evaporating system, learn about solar energy, desert ecology, how to build and run a wilderness power system, how to build temporary community, learn construction skills, creating interactive art projects, how to make connections with participants from other countries, how to clean up moop in dust drifts, how to challenge your self psychically, how to make new art, ...

At Burning Man, we are not in high school anymore trying to think of how to outwit cops.

Yeah, but isn't the eleventh priciple Radical Immaturity?

[junglesmacks]

I'm gonna sound like a self-righteous prick here, but I've never needed drugs to generate creativity and enjoyment of life. And Burning Man is probably the place you'd be least likely to need them.

You're new here, I can tell..


I feel like this is the 3rd time I've told you that.

It is.

[gyre]

No, you won't need any drugs until you get home.


Problem is you don't have to do anything to have a problem with cops.

I got rousted checking out houses in my own neighborhood.
They said file a complaint if you don't like it.
Still working it.
I'm emphasizing to their superiors their utter incompetence, above the rights' violations.

Bit sad when I understand police procedure better than the cops.

They said I have a bad attitude.

[Lonesomebri]

So, two years in a row, setting up camp and an old wind-swept frail hippie breezes into our camp offering shrooms. I'm pretty sure hw wasn't a cop.... CIA?

"I'm gonna sound like a self-righteous prick here, but I've never needed drugs to generate creativity and enjoyment of life."
Kinda funny, usually the stereotype is the druggy having grandious thoughts on their creativity.....

[Ugly Dougly]

Look at the shoes, man! You can always tell a pig by his shoes man.

Got any food? Peace, bro!

[maladroit]

You're new here, I can tell..


I feel like this is the 3rd time I've told you that.

It is.

I hope I'm getting told this by someone who's been going for five or more years...