Open letter to Allanon and the Stopburningman.com people

Share your pictures and video. Tell us about the sights, sounds, and scents, as well as the rumors and truths found at Burning Man.
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Open letter to Allanon and the Stopburningman.com people

Post by Observer » Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:28 pm

Dear Allanon and company,

I've lurked during some of your arguments, and noticed a few things, and I'd like to share them with you. Please pardon me if I've misunderstood you, as I've skimmed much of what you posted, but I'm getting the impression that you're talking about there being an ecosystem on the Playa that is somehow being damaged by Burning Man. The presence of surface water on the Playa during the wintertime is mentioned on your site, I believe. Check. The state of Nevada, on one of its sites, I forget which, confirms this, warning people to not drive out on the Playa during the winter, because they're likely to get stuck in the mud.

Fine. There's water. I'll give you that.

But is there an ecosystem? I've been to the Playa, and taken a good careful look at the unfamiliar looking ground, because that's the kind of geek I am. You know what I didn't see? Seeds. Nor did I see any dried out grass stalks, something that one would expect to see were this a waterfowl feeding area, with the vegetation drying up and blowing away during the dry season, as in parts of India. All I saw, even as I shook the dust off of a lot of items, was some of the purest looking dust I've ever seen, a seemingly uniformly fine powder.

As anybody who has ever dried a plant knows, dried vegetable material is amazing durable, at least in regard to decay. So, where's the debris? I have seen photos of the Playa in winter, and all I saw was bare ground, some nasty looking water, and a thin crust of ice. Nothing that would attract migratory waterfowl; there's no food.

You do make reference to Frog Pond, but my understanding, and please correct me if I'm mistaken, is that this "wetland" is nothing more than a pit that somebody dug to get to the water table. And, again, sorry if I've heard wrong, but I understand that you've been told this, and still wanted to pursue a complaint about the use of Frog Pond, anyway. This, to me, seems to be something akin to a nuisance suit, something where the spirit and purpose of the law are ignored, while one tries to trump up a complaint based on the letter of the law. BMORG is apparently restoring this pretty little area, and good for them, but it sounds to me like what you guys are saying is that if one digs for water in Pershing or Washoe county, or maybe even anywhere else, that one had better cover the hole over, or the government will come and make you stop pumping water out of the hole that you dug.

And you guys wanted to puirsue a complaint on an interpretation of the law that would read like that? Like I said, I only skimmed, maybe I misunderstood you, and my apologies if I did. But this sounds kind of messed up to me, so if I did get this wrong, please explain to be how I did, and maybe, if you could, offer some evidence in support of the hypothesis that there is an off-season ecosystem being damaged. Because somehow, hearing about piles of playa dust building up, just isn't striking horror into my heart, especially when I know that the next heavy rain will turn it all into mud anyway, ruling out the possibility that an accumulation of "playa serpents" is going to represent a lasting change in the physical character of the Playa. Right? Does a compacting mass of mud remember what it looked like before it got wet? :roll:

Allanon? Kids? Any comments?

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Post by Isotopia » Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:53 pm

What ever made you think that enaging our little troll (Rex) with your points would result in him doing anything other than start his innane nattering?

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Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:57 pm

Iso, I know you're right and you know you're right. Much of our knowledge of the futility of engaging allanon2 in "conversation" comes from trying. Trying like troupers, I might add if it didn't involve blowing my own horn.
Observer is allowed to try and get sence out of Babblesaurus rex and come to *his* own conclusions.

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Post by Isotopia » Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:00 pm

Hey, I'm not arguing the point. Just seems that given the previous threads where Rex has had everything from facts to shit tossed his way that it'd become obvious by now that any attempt to engage him sits right up there with pig wrestling on the futility scale.

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Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:07 pm

True. On the other hand, at least it's a nice confirmation of the fact that his arguements carry no weight with those not involved in the groupthink.

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Post by skypilot » Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:08 pm

:D wrestling pigs/hogs is no fun unless they're greased.

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Post by Observer » Fri Oct 01, 2004 5:09 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:Iso, I know you're right and you know you're right. Much of our knowledge of the futility of engaging allanon2 in "conversation" comes from trying. Trying like troupers, I might add if it didn't involve blowing my own horn.
Observer is allowed to try and get sense out of Babblesaurus rex and come to *his* own conclusions.
Thank you. I think that it is obvious that I am skeptical about what Rex and his friends have to say. I don't think that what they're going to say is going to make any sense. But I still think that we should be polite to them.

Why? Because let's say that I've guessed right, and these guys are completely full of it. Then all you do by flaming them, is make it possible for them to go back to their fans, and say "hey, man, I had these brilliant arguments all lined up and stuff, but I got ganged up on and clusterfucked on ePlaya, and didn't get to make my case". Why give his side that kind of help? Just let him make his points in peace, without getting attacked. If he makes no sense, then please consider this as a possibility - the less sense he makes, the friendlier you get, without conceding anything. Give him enough rope to hang himself.

If he does make sense, I'll be very, very surprised. But, I'm not faking the friendliness. If he has a real case to make, I'll listen to it with an open mind. If Rex (or anybody else from the Stopburningman.com crowd) is reading this, then what I'm saying is "let's hear it". For once. Preferably, with his side citing verifiable references in support of this remarkable claim - something that I have not seen them do, yet.

Fair enough?

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Post by Bob » Sat Oct 02, 2004 7:41 am

Forgive me, but this looks a little like the LDS trying to engage the Branch Davidians.
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

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Post by Observer » Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:42 am

Bob wrote:Forgive me, but this looks a little like the LDS trying to engage the Branch Davidians.
You are forgiven. :)

I think that I understand your concerns, but I'll be OK. I've dealt with people much worse than Allanon. If need be, I can get nasty, but in this case, would I need to be? If these people come in, and respond to a reasonable rebuttal based on confirmable facts with a venting spree, all that they're going to do is destroy whatever credibility they have left, which, if they're as out there as I think they are, would be a very good thing.

I was interested to hear last night that there was a very limited wintertime ecosystem on the Playa, in which the largest animals present were these little creatures called "fairy shrimp", which apparently vary between 0.5 and 1.5 inches in length. I'd be interested to read more about that, but like I told somebody last night, I'm already picturing Allanon trying to salvage his position with those shrimp. This won't work, but it would be amusing to watch.

Figure, if you're this little 0.5 inch guy, and you run into one of those pieces of rebar that the Stopburningman.com people claim to have run into on one of those transect walks - what are the odds that you're going to manage to injure yourself by accidentally impailing yourself on something several times your body length? Physically, this is a little lacking in plausibility. Look at how far you'd have to travel, on your scale, just to reach anything that even resembles a tip.

And then there's the awkward question of why they never brought in any independent third party to confirm their findings along these alleged transect walks. Finding environmental activists who are willing to travel into the Wilderness to serve as witnesses is not that difficult. Yet, we hear from nobody but their friends. Why is that? They never say.

Most of that is more addressed to Allanon, and I'll be interested to see if he has a response. My point, as I write this, is not to tell you what I'm sure that you already know, Bob. You're a member of the Burning Man LLC, so I'm sure that I'm preaching to the choir. My point is that sometimes a seemingly mild response can carry more of an impact than a flame, because it doesn't give Allanon a chance to go back to his peeps and play martyr. Which he has been doing.

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You haven't seen the nocturnal Tortoises?

Post by meandthemissus » Sat Oct 02, 2004 7:22 pm

They burrow into the playa during the day, because of the heat. and leave for the hills during the flood period.

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of course I am around

Post by allanon2 » Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:38 pm

well this year Burnign man stopped using water from frog pond. (which is great) now they are using a lot fo water from the little side valley they are in and while talkign to a local there they are concerned about possible effect on the water table. (not too worried thou)

2nd are major issue is the pliya dunes that are growing and growing on the laked bed and acording to ovr 75%of the locals I talk to say the dunes are caused by burnign man and the breakup of the hard surface during, before, and after the event. these pliya serpents/dunes are very dangerous to vehicles.

many peopel thsi year arer also complaing about how horrible and mean people are treated during the event from BLm, sherifs, and BMORG black rock rangers.

ttyl
rex

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Post by Bob » Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:01 pm

And if I weigh not the same as a duck, does that not make me a witch?
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Re: of course I am around

Post by Observer » Sun Oct 03, 2004 6:55 am

allanon2 wrote:2nd are major issue is the pliya dunes that are growing and growing on the laked bed and acording to ovr 75%of the locals I talk to say the dunes are caused by burnign man and the breakup of the hard surface during, before, and after the event. these pliya serpents/dunes are very dangerous to vehicles.

many peopel thsi year arer also complaing about how horrible and mean people are treated during the event from BLm, sherifs, and BMORG black rock rangers.

Rex, pardon me, but it sounds to me like you're trying to change the subject in a real hurry, almost as if to distract attention away from the fact that your side has no answer to give to the questions that I just asked. Is that the case? Because that is certainly the impression that you are leaving, I think, and perhaps we might agree that when people get that impression, that this perception does nothing to help your cause. There are any number of topics that we can discuss, and maybe we can talk about them later on, after you've answered these first few questions, but those topics are not the ones that your side has just been asked about. I would ask you to please stick to the subject at hand. Now, yes or no - are you guys saying that there is an ecosystem on the Playa being damaged by the holding of Burning Man?

As in, living things that are dying or being harmed, that would be there naturally. Particles of gypsum dust do not qualify as living things. Neither do drag racers. If the the answer is "yes", would you please make your case, now. If no, would you please concede that your side was blowing smoke when it made that claim, and would your side be willing to consider publicly retracting it? Or is it your side's contention that it has the right to knowingly publish material containing false claims, in order to gain public attention for itself?

Please do answer these questions, even if you have to get your friends from Stopburningman.com to help you, Rex, so that we may move on and address your other concerns. They've already been given fair notice that a question has been put to them, in a post on their own list, made yesterday, as anybody can see by looking into the archives at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stopburningman

They can not claim that they did not know that this question was put to them. Nor can they claim that they were acting to avoid abuse. Note the shortage of flammage on this thread. Nor can they cite the limitations of time, as we are not talking about a question which your side has answered over and over. In fact, it hasn't addressed it once.

So could we please get back on the subject, and hear an answer from you, on the topic at hand? If that would not be too much trouble.

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Post by Observer » Sun Oct 03, 2004 9:00 am

CORRECTION - That should have been "Stopburningman.org". Stopburningman.com seems to be a domain that was purchased by one of the Utah burners and pointed toward the Burning Man site as an act of mockery. Speaking of Mockery, I got my answer from "Obscurotron", who seems to be the leader of this ragtag band of protesters. In message 375 on the stopburningman list, Obscurotron explains why he refuses to answer the question.


> the_observer605 <the_observer605@h...> wrote:
>
> Post on e-Playa: "Open letter to Allanon and the
> Stopburningman.com people", located in "Experience of
> Burning Man" section
>
> http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=7220

And I don't know that anyone would *want* to reply to BMers.
Why? Because anything said, even if rational or well-intended,
can and will be used against you in the brainwashed and rabid-dog
court of public opinion. And that's just counter productive, all
well-meant intentions aside.

This is a matter for the LLC as far as I'm concerned. The
general population of BM is about as reasonable as a
deranged antelope.

And after I had just taken the time to get my distemper shots. :)

I think that any fair-minded person looking through will agree that there was nothing "rabid" or "deranged" about what I posted. I did get a little blunt with Rex, but he was being evasive, and I feel that I was as gentle with him as the circumstances allowed. Others might differ. Like Obscurotron, apparently.

But if any lurker was still thinking about taking this man's cause seriously, I would invite him to notice that the man didn't answer the question, even on his own list. Look and see for yourself - it's an open list. All we see is vague rambling about how people will get him if he tries, and a comment that he's leaving the resolution of this imagined problem to the LLC, ie. the Burning Man Organization. A strange thing to do, if we take him at his word, and view Stopburningman.org as being a real and responsible advocacy effort, because the Burning Man Limited Liability Corporation is the very group of people he whose alleged damage to the Playa ecosystem he is complaining about.

If Obscurotron believed his own claims, then wouldn't this be a little like asking the fox to look into those break-ins at the chicken coop? If somebody reading this wants to believe that Obscurotron. Rex and company are on the level, he's left with some mysterious behavior to explain. If, on the other hand, he assumes that this is all an attempt on their part to get attention, then Obscurotron's refusal to answer a few simple questions becomes all too easy to understand. My thought is that Occam's razor leads us to the conclusion that our good friends at Stopburningman.org are blowing smoke, and that they know it.

But, draw your own conclusions. Rex, the ball is in your court.

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Post by Badger » Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:55 pm

Bad call Observer.

Regardless of what any of our opinions are towards the asshats that make up the groups (or individuals) who critique the event it is UNCOOL to post private e-mail messages to a public forum.

You really should go back and read the Terms for the board.
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Post by Alpha » Sun Oct 03, 2004 6:02 pm

Slow down Badger... isn't that a post from another public forum?

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Post by unjonharley » Sun Oct 03, 2004 6:04 pm

Who is this Observer person?

Why would this "Observer" think BMers need him/her to take up this cross?
I'm the contraptioneer your mother warned you about.

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Post by Badger » Sun Oct 03, 2004 6:13 pm

Slow down Badger... isn't that a post from another public forum?
It may be although I went over to scour through Rex's copious rmablings and selected brain farts and didn't recogize the post noted. If it was in fact taken from the forum then I'll admit to overlooking it and offer a public apology.
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Post by Observer » Sun Oct 03, 2004 10:39 pm

Badger wrote:
Slow down Badger... isn't that a post from another public forum?
It may be although I went over to scour through Rex's copious rmablings and selected brain farts and didn't recogize the post noted. If it was in fact taken from the forum then I'll admit to overlooking it and offer a public apology.
No apology is needed, Badger. The post is from another forum, or to be more precise, from a Yahoogroup. As I wrote earlier: "In message 375 on the stopburningman list, Obscurotron explains why he refuses to answer the question", followed by the quote. Stopburningman, the yahoogroup, is set so that anybody can join, and the post is right out there in the archives, for all to see. There's nothing private about it.

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Post by Observer » Sun Oct 03, 2004 10:50 pm

unjonharley wrote:Who is this Observer person?

Why would this "Observer" think BMers need him/her to take up this cross?
Who is this unjonharley person?

Why would this "unjonharley" person think BMers need to hear him/her comment about this thread? :) That one cuts both ways, doesn't it?

If everybody gets into that kind of attitude, pretty soon all you've got is a pack of spectators who do nothing, because everybody tells himself "somebody else can do what I was about to do". Me, I'd rather be a participant. I guess I'm just weird that way.

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Post by unjonharley » Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:41 am

Observer wrote:
unjonharley wrote:Who is this Observer person?

Why would this "Observer" think BMers need him/her to take up this cross?
Who is this unjonharley person?

Why would this "unjonharley" person think BMers need to hear him/her comment about this thread? :) That one cuts both ways, doesn't it?

If everybody gets into that kind of attitude, pretty soon all you've got is a pack of spectators who do nothing, because everybody tells himself "somebody else can do what I was about to do". Me, I'd rather be a participant. I guess I'm just weird that way.


/\
Easy way to flush a nasty "sock"?
Ask then a question.
Got my ansewer and can move on now.
Ducking.. people with there smelly laundry.
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Post by Observer » Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:07 pm

unjonharley wrote:
Observer wrote:
unjonharley wrote:Who is this Observer person?

Why would this "Observer" think BMers need him/her to take up this cross?
Who is this unjonharley person?

Why would this "unjonharley" person think BMers need to hear him/her comment about this thread? :) That one cuts both ways, doesn't it?

If everybody gets into that kind of attitude, pretty soon all you've got is a pack of spectators who do nothing, because everybody tells himself "somebody else can do what I was about to do". Me, I'd rather be a participant. I guess I'm just weird that way.


/\
Easy way to flush a nasty "sock"?
Ask then a question.
Got my ansewer and can move on now.
Ducking.. people with there smelly laundry.
Whatever you say, Rex.

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Post by TheJudge » Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:05 pm

Observer wrote: Stopburningman, the yahoogroup, is set so that anybody can join, and the post is right out there in the archives, for all to see. There's nothing private about it.
I wonder what they would do if a lot of burners started subscribing to their message forum. They might actually get an interesting discussion started.

[quote=""Ed" at stopburningman.org"] "And I don't know that anyone would *want* to reply to BMers. Why? Because anything said, even if rational or well-intended, can and will be used against you in the brainwashed and rabid-dog court of public opinion."[/quote]

Yeah. I just hate it when rational, well-intended facts get in the way of someone's fallacious, conspirational assumption.
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Post by Observer » Tue Oct 05, 2004 7:10 am

TheJudge wrote:I wonder what they would do if a lot of burners started subscribing to their message forum. They might actually get an interesting discussion started.
If they were open to it. But somehow, I don't believe that they are. One need only look at the way that Ed has already responded.
[quote=""Ed" at stopburningman.org"] "And I don't know that anyone would *want* to reply to BMers. Why? Because anything said, even if rational or well-intended, can and will be used against you in the brainwashed and rabid-dog court of public opinion."
Yeah. I just hate it when rational, well-intended facts get in the way of someone's fallacious, conspirational assumption. [/quote]

Exactly, and if we start piling up in his group, he'll be able to spin that to his advantage. "Look at how they're ganging up on us and trying to drown us out and harass us", he'll say, to what will probably be an increasingly sympathetic (and growing) audience. I like your spirit of "let's get these people talking to the rest of us", but I don't know if a massed invasion is the way to go.

If Ed's motives are sincere ones, doing that will only raise his suspicions and leave him even less open to reason than before. If Ed's motives are insincere, and maybe even a little malevolent, then we'd be playing into his hands. He can change those yahoogroup settings at will, picking and choosing which of us can be heard. Would you want Ed, in effect, to be left in the position of being able to choose the spokesperson for those of us who are over here, on the other side of the argument?

Best to let him come to us, I think. If our tone with him remains mild, reasonable and flamefree, we're going to be able to ask him "why won't you do that, Ed", and his explanation of "because you evil BMers are out to get me" is going to ring more hollow by the day.

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Beating a sleeping dog like a dead horse.

Post by TheJudge » Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:44 am

I've never been one to follow the "let sleeping dogs lie" doctrine. And because I take such personal pleasure in proving asshats wrong, let's "Let the truth be known," shall we?

Right at the top of their website, the stopburningman folks state,
"BURNING MAN HAS BEEN GRANTED A PERMIT FOR '04 AND '05
WITHOUT A PUBLIC COMMENT PERIOD!!!"


Nevermind the fact that I abhor people that abuse capital letters and exclamation marks, the following information comes from the BLM's "Worksheet Documentation of Land Use Plan Conformance and NEPA Adequacy (DNA)" which states the following:

"News releases were sent to several local and regional newspapers to inform the public that BLM had receivfed the permit application (2/2003), and again to announce the issuance of the permit based on a new environemental assessment (6/2003). Several comments were received, some of which were incorporated as revisions to the EA or adopted in part as permit stipulations, Information about the comment and appeals processes were included in the news releases. Letters of concern were also received by the BLM state director and senators from both Nevada and California, all of which were resolved without protest.

During preparation of the 2003 Burning Man EA, consultation or coordination with all affected federal, Tribal, State, county, and community agencies, and corporations was conducted. No new concerns or issues have arisen since the EA for the 2003 Burning Man event was compleded less than a year ago.

If this DNA is approved and a decision is made to issue a Special Recreation Permit to Black Rock City, LLC, to conduct the Burning Man Event in 2004 and 2005,
[which they have] a news release will be sent to local and regional news media outlets throughtout all of Nevada and Northern California notifying the public of the decision to issue the permit and explaining the appeal process. [which they did]

Therefore, the public involvement and interagency review associated with existing NEPA documents is adequate for the current proposed action.

During consultation with the Fish and Wildlife Service for the Black Rock Desert High Rock Canyon Emigrant Trails National Conservation Area Resource Management Plan, no adverse impacts to Federally listed Threatened, Endangered or Candidate species were identified in the Bilogical Opinion as a result of continued issuance of Special Recreation Permits on the Black Rock Desert Playa. Previous consultation for events on the playa did not indicate the presence of sensitive species on the playa."


-----
Another argument that Rex like to point out is the amount of oil that is dripped onto the playa.

From the same BLM document:

"An oil drip survey dated April 2003 found no significant environmental impacts caused by the discharge of vehicle fluids onto the playa surface."

-----
Another document that supports the BLM findings is the "Decision Record / Finding of No significant Impact for Special Recreation Permit NV025-04-02." Of particular interest was the passage that states:

"Issues analyzed in the Burning Man 2003 EA included: Access, Adverse Playa Impacts/Playa Degradation, Public Health, Event Security/Infrastructure Issues Associated with Event Location, Sufficient Fees/Monitoring of Attendance, Monitoring (Cumulative Effects,) and Socio-Economic impacts to local and regional communities.

The Affected Environment analyzed in the Burning Man 2003 EA included: The Black Rock Desert Playa, Cultural Resources, Playa Sediments and Vegitation, Air Quality, Wildlife (Includes Migratory Birds and Sensitive Species), Waste, The Recreation Environment, Visual Resources, Native American Concerns, Water Resources, Land Use and Access, and Socio-Economics,

These items represent an comprehensive listing of issues that required analysis. No new issues or concerns have arisen since the Burning Man 2003 EA was completed. Therefore, if stipulations refined from those developed in the 2003 Decision Record are included in a Special Recreation Permit issued to Black Rock City LLC, the methodology and analytical approach used in the existing NEPA documents continuie to be appropriate for the current proposed action.


-----
After reading through all of the documentation presented on their website, the BLM reached following conclusions about the event:

1. Does not significantly affect the quality of the human environment.
2. An environmental Impact Statement is not required.
3. Conforms to current land use plans.
4. Provides substantial economic gains for surrounding communities.
5. Has no impact to public health and safety.
6. Would not cause the loss or destruction of significant scientific, cultural or historical resources.
7. Has no significant or adverse impacts to threatened, endangered, or candidate species of wildlife or critical habitats.
8. Does not violate any federal, state or local law or requirement imposed for the protection of the environment.

Now, I am sure that as a community, we can do more to protect our environemnt and truly leave no trace, but the level of scrutiny that the BLM already gives to the event seems to suggest that virtually none of the issues Rex and the gang complain about are actually true.

Allanon2, care to reply to this post, or will you simply run and hide behind your buddies that continue to ejaculate that the observations of the playa are inherently unreliable?

I look forward to reading your incomprehensible blather.
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Re: Beating a sleeping dog like a dead horse.

Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:30 am

TheJudge wrote:Right at the top of their website, the stopburningman folks state,
"BURNING MAN HAS BEEN GRANTED A PERMIT FOR '04 AND '05 WITHOUT A PUBLIC COMMENT PERIOD!!!"
In a document posted on the BLM Winnemucca Field OFfice website, written (based on internal evedence) between December 03 and Feb 04
http://www.nv.blm.gov/Winnemucca/NEPA/2 ... ojects.pdf
(Page 14) Says that there is an action being considered--that being a Special Recreation Permit in the Black Rock Desert Playa for the Burning Man 2004 festival. A contact is given. Someone who watched the Websites for SOPAs (Schedules of Planned Actions) or put themselves on the mailing list or both, just to cover bases, would have had months in which to comment. Or so it seems to me. But given their fixation on CEQA it's quite possible that they were waiting for word from Sacramento. Oh wait, I'm not supposed be geoin after these twits like a viscious terrier. Sorry.

allanon2
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:27 pm

Re: of course I am around

Post by allanon2 » Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:36 pm

Observer wrote:
allanon2 wrote:2nd are major issue is the pliya dunes that are growing and growing on the laked bed and acording to ovr 75%of the locals I talk to say the dunes are caused by burnign man and the breakup of the hard surface during, before, and after the event. these pliya serpents/dunes are very dangerous to vehicles.

many peopel thsi year arer also complaing about how horrible and mean people are treated during the event from BLm, sherifs, and BMORG black rock rangers.

Rex, pardon me, but it sounds to me like you're trying to change the subject in a real hurry, almost as if to distract attention away from the fact that your side has no answer to give to the questions that I just asked. Is that the case? Because that is certainly the impression that you are leaving, I think, and perhaps we might agree that when people get that impression, that this perception does nothing to help your cause. There are any number of topics that we can discuss, and maybe we can talk about them later on, after you've answered these first few questions, but those topics are not the ones that your side has just been asked about. I would ask you to please stick to the subject at hand. Now, yes or no - are you guys saying that there is an ecosystem on the Playa being damaged by the holding of Burning Man?

As in, living things that are dying or being harmed, that would be there naturally. Particles of gypsum dust do not qualify as living things. Neither do drag racers. If the the answer is "yes", would you please make your case, now. If no, would you please concede that your side was blowing smoke when it made that claim, and would your side be willing to consider publicly retracting it? Or is it your side's contention that it has the right to knowingly publish material containing false claims, in order to gain public attention for itself?

Please do answer these questions, even if you have to get your friends from Stopburningman.com to help you, Rex, so that we may move on and address your other concerns. They've already been given fair notice that a question has been put to them, in a post on their own list, made yesterday, as anybody can see by looking into the archives at


fien i will answer then in a way

we really dont even talk about the actual life on the pliya. I like to focus on a few items that we have outlind on our website.
Peopel here have said to focus on a few things and do that well. I think we have and I will continue to do so.

where did we talk about life on the pliya being dmaaged? we have talked about material dumped on the pliya but did not talk about life being damaged
i love it when people say things i have not

sigh

allanon2
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:27 pm

you think i am unjonharley? wow umm ok

Post by allanon2 » Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:42 pm

Observer wrote:
unjonharley wrote:
Observer wrote: Who is this unjonharley person?

Why would this "unjonharley" person think BMers need to hear him/her comment about this thread? :) That one cuts both ways, doesn't it?

If everybody gets into that kind of attitude, pretty soon all you've got is a pack of spectators who do nothing, because everybody tells himself "somebody else can do what I was about to do". Me, I'd rather be a participant. I guess I'm just weird that way.


/\
Easy way to flush a nasty "sock"?
Ask then a question.
Got my ansewer and can move on now.
Ducking.. people with there smelly laundry.
Whatever you say, Rex.
umm not me. i have not logged in until now. last tiem was on octber 4th

and remeber JFK and Lincolon were shot by peopel in congress.

the auto companies own patents to cars that get 150 miles per galllon

we have aliens walking among us

and Ralph Nader will win the rpesedinetial election this year

and peopel wonder why i even post here,

allanon2
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:27 pm

actaully dave cooper said he was forgoign public comment

Post by allanon2 » Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:45 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
TheJudge wrote:Right at the top of their website, the stopburningman folks state,
"BURNING MAN HAS BEEN GRANTED A PERMIT FOR '04 AND '05 WITHOUT A PUBLIC COMMENT PERIOD!!!"
In a document posted on the BLM Winnemucca Field OFfice website, written (based on internal evedence) between December 03 and Feb 04
http://www.nv.blm.gov/Winnemucca/NEPA/2 ... ojects.pdf
(Page 14) Says that there is an action being considered--that being a Special Recreation Permit in the Black Rock Desert Playa for the Burning Man 2004 festival. A contact is given. Someone who watched the Websites for SOPAs (Schedules of Planned Actions) or put themselves on the mailing list or both, just to cover bases, would have had months in which to comment. Or so it seems to me. But given their fixation on CEQA it's quite possible that they were waiting for word from Sacramento. Oh wait, I'm not supposed be geoin after these twits like a viscious terrier. Sorry.
actualy I have written documentation from Dave Cooper that they said to forgo p a public comment period this year.
he said that he felt everythign has been said in the past and no new comments were made the previous year beseides us, a aircraft person, and BMORG LLC.

so they decided to nto have public comment period this year

so please dont talk about things i have proof about

dragonfly Jafe
Posts: 1877
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 11:08 am
Location: the Oregon Trail

Post by dragonfly Jafe » Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:51 am

same old compost getting churned. The only NEW part to this is that Allanon2 is doing much better with his spelling. Thanks for that! Much easier to read. Now what were you saying?

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