Kerry wins First Debate hands down

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Force
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There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Post by Force » Mon Oct 04, 2004 6:40 am

Rob the Wop wrote:
Force wrote: You can call it a silly conspiracy theory if you want, but the fact that both Bush and Kerry, along with many other people who rise to high national office were skull and bones men will alert anyone with even a basic knowledge of statistical theory that there's something wrong there.
I have a basic knowledge of statistical theory. Give me the statistical data on 'wrong'.

I looked up the 'Skull and Bones' link posted. Sounds like a frat or masonite style 'club' at Yale. Most of our upper elected officials went to prestegious schools, same as any government really. What's your point? That Yale contains a secret society for world domination?

And if they were all Boy Scouts, then that would be a secret society for world domination? Are there any 'Skull and Bones' members that are not high political officials?

Logic man, logic. PLEASE go to your local community college, it will make my reading pleasure so much more enjoyable.
How about if we don't get sidetracked playing with numbers which you can just easily use to "prove" that it might be a big fat coincidence that all these people involved in the assholery that is the corrupt/incompetent decision making that is occurring right now were also skull and bonesmen?

If you can't see that the way our government is going about it's affairs is corrupt and wrong and benefits it's pals in halliburton etc., then nothing I will say is likely to sway you to think otherwise.

I'm old enough to know that you're proposing we argue about technicalities while ignoring the obvious. And I've never "won" and argument yet, if you count as "winning" converting someone to my viewpoint by a presentation of evidence or reasoning when what the other person really wants is not to learn and explore the various viewpoints of a topic, but rather to argue and "win" the argument.

And from our previous interaction, I feel it's highly unlikely you want to actually discuss statistical theory for the purpose of your own enlightenment because you wonder if I may have some information you don't- and I rather suspect your true desire is to again try and score some nebulous "points" against me, which ultimately will achieve nothing aside from feeding your ego.

No thanks. I've got better things to do.

There is plenty of information at your fingertips right now, so do your own research to make your own case that our government is not corrupt if that's your belief. I would welcome learning about some facts or knowledge or a viewpoint that would explain their behavior.

And I'm not stating absolutely that there is a vast conspiracy, although to me it seems pretty obvious that there is plenty of smoke if there's no fire.

I'd be a lot happier if I could believe that it's just greed operating, and that there isn't some machiavellian master plan, so I honestly hope you can make an argument that shows that to some reasonable degree.

I'm also old enough to know that people make up their minds first about the way things are and then come up with the rationalization as to why it's so- look at hypnotized people who are given hypnotic suggestions and their rationalizations as to why it's perfectly logical to bark like a dog or cluck like a chicken at the trigger word for a simple illustration of that principle.

I eagerly await your presentation of evidence that will show that our government is not corrupt and is acting in our best interest.

That ought to be a hoot.

And if you can actually convince me, then hell, you'll have done me a favor, and I'll buy you the first round when we finally meet.

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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:31 am

Now that's the best one you've written yet Force.



Yeah....can anyone please prove or at least cite that the people that are sending the boys and girls off to die in an already proven full of shit war are not corrupt.

Prove that Bush and Cheney and the rest of the KKKlan are not bullshit.
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Re: There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Post by Rob the Wop » Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:08 am

Force wrote: I eagerly await your presentation of evidence that will show that our government is not corrupt and is acting in our best interest.

That ought to be a hoot.

And if you can actually convince me, then hell, you'll have done me a favor, and I'll buy you the first round when we finally meet.
OK, I shoot holes in the 'logic' (VERY loosely used term) in your little theory- and your rebuttal is for me to prove that something doesn't exist?

It's impossible to prove something doesn't exist as this can only be acheived through being omnipotent. You have to prove that in the subset of everything, that there in no example of something. No philosopher has ever successfully debated the non-existance of God for this very reason. This is from thousands of years of attempts.

That being said, there is already proof of at least one admitted case of corruption- therefore you can forever say that our government has had corruption. 'Acting in our best interest' is a) dependant upon the point of view of each individual citizen and b) dependant upon what is considered action.

Not debating the issue of corruption in government, I'm shooting giant gaping holes in your argument. The logic, Tin Hat Fashion Man, is what I'm pointing out. It works whether you are discussing politics or plumbing fixtures.

Again, I present you an apple, and you hold up a left-handed spanner wrench as proof.

And I do this not to 'win' some kind of argument. You don't do that with people such as yourselves, they would NEVER admit to being wrong in any way, shape, or form. I do it because it amuses me to point out the flaws in your 'reasoning' (again, very loosely termed).
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Post by stuart » Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:19 am

i heart rob
i heart logic
i tire of people asking to disprove a negative
call me baby

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Post by Isotopia » Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:41 am

i tire of people asking to disprove a negative
especially when its often defines one's style as far as disagreeing or taking excpetion to points/issues..

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Post by diane o'thirst » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:01 pm

Before we get bogged down in a head-to-head confrontation, let's keep sight of the prize here:

Bush needs to start packing his bags and getting the hekk out of the White House on November 3rd. Kerry has by far the best shot at doing that. You want four more wars and Mullah Ashcroft resurrecting the Taliban right here in the States?

I like Kerry because he's a thinker. He's deliberate, commanding and sharp as a razor. We need a thinker in the Oval Office, and more importantly he doesn't sacrifice accuracy for speed. They call it flip-flopping, but it can also be seen as dynamism. A leader needs to think on his feet and be ready to adjust as necessary while still maintaining an even keel.

Bush is good at pulling heartstrings. He's a heart-man. But being genial isn't an automatic barometer of leadership qualities. Are we better off now than we were four years ago? FUCK, NO!!! And for that, he needs to go. Let's make that happen November 2nd — and we're not gonna do it by whispering about conspiracies and calling for cites from each other.
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Post by cowboyangel » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:07 pm

agreed except for the "he's a heart-man" thing the concept of heart is as far from this guy as Pluto is from the sun
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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:07 pm

anything beats:

I.Q. = 091 George W. Bush (R)

Anything.
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Post by Simply Joel » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:08 pm

Legislators, by trade, don't lead... executive officers, by trade, do lead...

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Since Joel only like to quote the conservative columnists:

Post by KellY » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:08 pm

Bush and Reality

By BOB HERBERT

Published: October 4, 2004

For 90 minutes, at least, democracy seemed to be working. The two men in dark suits took their places at the lecterns. The analysts, the handlers, the spinmeisters and the hangers-on had been cleared out of the way. With no commercial interruptions, more than 60 million Americans got a rare, unedited, close-up look at the candidates in one of the most important presidential elections in the nation's history.

John Kerry got the better of President Bush in last Thursday's debate in Coral Gables, Fla. The president seemed listless, defensive and not particularly well prepared. His facial expressions and body language at times were odd. Some of his strongest supporters were dismayed by his performance, and polls are showing they had reason to be concerned.

There undoubtedly were many reasons for Mr. Bush's lackluster effort. But I think there was one factor, above all, that undermined the president in last week's debate, and will continue to plague him throughout the campaign. And that was his problematic relationship with reality.

Mr. Bush is a man who will frequently tell you - and may even believe - that up is down, or square is round, when logic and all the available evidence say otherwise. During the debate, this was most clearly displayed when, in response to a question about the war in Iraq, Mr. Bush told the moderator, Jim Lehrer, "The enemy attacked us, Jim, and I have a solemn duty to protect the American people, to do everything I can to protect us."

Moments later Senator Kerry clarified, for the audience and the president, just who had attacked the United States. "Saddam Hussein didn't attack us," said Mr. Kerry. "Osama bin Laden attacked us. Al Qaeda attacked us."

Given a chance to respond, Mr. Bush flashed an unappreciative look at Senator Kerry and said, "Of course I know Osama bin Laden attacked us - I know that."

With no weapons of mass destruction to exhibit, and no link between Saddam and Al Qaeda, Mr. Bush has nevertheless tried to portray the war in Iraq as not only the right thing to do but as largely successful. The increasing violence and chaos suggest otherwise. Even as the presidential debate was being conducted, details were coming in about car bombings earlier in the day in Baghdad that killed dozens of Iraqis, including at least 34 children.

The children were not in school because the turmoil had prevented the opening of schools.

The political problem for Mr. Bush is that while he is offering a rosy picture of events in Iraq - perhaps because he believes it, or because he wants to bolster American morale - voters are increasingly seeing the bitter, tragic reality of those events. A president can stay out of step with reality only so long. Eventually there's a political price to pay. Lyndon Johnson's deceit with regard to Vietnam, for example, has never been forgiven.

The president likes to tell us that "freedom is winning" in Iraq, that democracy is on the march. But Americans are coming to realize that Iraq is, in fact, a country in agony, beset by bombings, firefights, kidnappings, beheadings and myriad other forms of mayhem. The president may think that freedom is winning, but television viewers in the U.S. could see images over the weekend of distraught Iraqis pulling the bodies of small children from smoking rubble - a tragic but perfect metaphor for a policy in ruins.

Mr. Bush got his big bounce in the public opinion polls from the Swift boat nonsense and the mocking, nonstop criticism of Senator Kerry at the Republican National Convention. Those were distractions from the real world. But reality cannot be kept at bay indefinitely. Readers of The Washington Post got a disturbing dose of it yesterday from a front-page article about the strain being put on the overloaded systems of veterans' disability benefits and health care by the thousands of American troops returning from Iraq and Afghanistan with physical injuries and mental health problems.

The article noted that "President Bush's budget for 2005 calls for cutting the Department of Veterans Affairs staff that handles benefits claims."

A staff sergeant who was paralyzed in a mortar attack near Baghdad was quoted as saying: "I love the military; that was my life. But I don't believe they're taking care of me now."

The real world is President Bush's Achilles' heel. He can't keep his distance from it forever.
"Of what use is a philosopher who doesn't hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes

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Post by Simply Joel » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:09 pm

I share the concerns raised above about the proper care of veterans by the Veteran's Administration.

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Post by cowboyangel » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:11 pm

thanks KellY... that was a good one.....I'm thinkin about giving up Rockstar
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by unjonharley » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:36 pm

Kerry best win hands down He has 30+ years of debates under his belt. I would hate to be in his shoes when he takes over.

Mr. Bush pack your bags and grab some breakfast.
Your on your way back to Texas
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Post by diane o'thirst » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:48 pm

CowboyAngel: When I said Bush was a "heart-man" I meant it in the sense that he goes for the emotional response. To wit: he's not intimidating; if he was just a regular guy and not the President he'd probably be a nice person to sit down and chat with over a drink.

But notice the words he keeps bandying about: "freedom," "liberty," "democracy." When he speaks he tries to paint a rosy picture with evocative verbiage, as opposed to facts. Contrast Kerry: he doesn't use flowery words, he cuts straight to the point and tells you how he's going to do it, too.

The words Bush makes use of are best used by philosophers and poets. Not to say that's a bad thing but poets rarely get anything material done. They provide the inspiration: leaders act on the words of poets and make it happen. For instance, Karl Marx didn't lead the Soviet Revolution: Lenin did. When Romania threw off its tyrant Ceaucescu, they were inspired by the words of a song, but it wasn't the lyricist that led the revolution — it was the people under an inspired leader that knew what to do and when to do it.
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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:52 pm

diane o'thirst wrote: But notice the words he keeps bandying about: "freedom," "liberty," "democracy." When he speaks he tries to paint a rosy picture with evocative verbiage, as opposed to facts.
Hey dont forget the words "Hard work."


he's been workin hard.
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Post by stuart » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:55 pm

the concept of heart is as far from this guy as Pluto is from the su
what was that thing about 'when we judge' again?
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Post by samtzu » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:56 pm

ZING!!!! to Stuart!!!!
The revolutionary does not grow up because he cannot grow, while the creative individual cannot grow up because he keeps growing ~~ Eric Hoffer

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Post by cowboyangel » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:15 pm

well you could have a point there Stuart if it wasn't for the way the guy let Carla Faye Tucker go down even when Jerry Falwell and the Pope were asking him to commute her sentance...not to mention the over 200 other death row people spared his 'mercy'. I guess when you're in the eye and you call yourself a "compassionate conservative" you're bound to catch some of that.....but I'll give it to you, I don't always represent what I preach, and the judgement thing is a hard one at that...Let's just say I'm for the sanctity of life and leave it at that.
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Post by cowboyangel » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:26 pm

also my exact quote was...."judgement can be thought of as a limitation"
I don't believe that was a reference to its being right or wrong. Obviously, the courts make judgements all the time and that can be thought of as limitation of a type.. let me just end with this, if it were up to me, I'd end the death penalty in a minute. Thanks again for your pointing out a contradiction.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by stuart » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:52 pm

no problem

sorry for the missquote, I got lazy in looking for your post.
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Post by theCryptofishist » Mon Oct 04, 2004 3:24 pm

Force wrote: It doesn't take a genius to drive a car into a tree, but it does take a skilled mechanic to fix it. And it takes an even smarter guy, a surgeon, to save the lives of the driver and the passengers.
Um. Don't forget the tree surgeon who's gonna save the life of the tree.

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Post by unjonharley » Mon Oct 04, 2004 3:31 pm

Simply Joel wrote:Legislators, by trade, don't lead... executive officers, by trade, do lead...


Were you reffering to "a" executive. You can not be an executive or lead with a puppeteers hand up your ass. Hey Dick, Make W smirk or the people huh........
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Post by blyslv » Mon Oct 04, 2004 3:40 pm

diane o'thirst wrote:CowboyAngel: When I said Bush was a "heart-man" I meant it in the sense that he goes for the emotional response. To wit: he's not intimidating; if he was just a regular guy and not the President he'd probably be a nice person to sit down and chat with over a drink.

.
I doubt it. I think he'd be boring, given that he brags about is unwillingness to read or expose himself to ideas.
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Post by bullD » Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:05 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
Force wrote: It doesn't take a genius to drive a car into a tree, but it does take a skilled mechanic to fix it. And it takes an even smarter guy, a surgeon, to save the lives of the driver and the passengers.
Um. Don't forget the tree surgeon who's gonna save the life of the tree.

:lol:

Ahhhh, bureaucracy...

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Look, up in the sky, it's... Frothing Logic Lad!

Post by Force » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:43 am

Rob the Wop wrote:
Force wrote: I eagerly await your presentation of evidence that will show that our government is not corrupt and is acting in our best interest.

That ought to be a hoot.

And if you can actually convince me, then hell, you'll have done me a favor, and I'll buy you the first round when we finally meet.
OK, I shoot holes in the 'logic' (VERY loosely used term) in your little theory- and your rebuttal is for me to prove that something doesn't exist?

It's impossible to prove something doesn't exist...
No, frothy, if you go back and read my words, I actually asked for you to present some evidence to back up your viewpoint on why the government is doing the right thing by attacking Iraq and taking away our civil liberties and generally gearing up to goose-step all over the world is a good thing.

But typically (it's happened again and again), you've read into my words whatever you want to see, then respond in your own wacked-out fashion. And then call me crazy to reassure yourself you're the sane one. What exactly is it that I've said that's crazy again?

Is it when I point out facts and state that while they don't necessarily prove there's a massive conspiracy they sure are peculiar? And maybe we should pay a little more attention to them? Kind of like in a murder trial where a preponderance of circumstantial evidence can be enough to convict a killer, where in the vast majority of cases there are no witnesses and no videotape of the actual act?

You keep pointing out how much smarter you are than me, but then you don't share any of your wisdom with us, preferring to talk about technicalities like a courtroom lawyer.

Well, this ain't the courtroom pal, and everyone with an ounce of common knows that if you can't support your own statements, and prefer to talk about side issues then it pretty much means you're full of it.

It's kind of like if I said Bush ain't the smartest guy around, and you come back with "ain't is not proper grammer". That doesn't make Bush any smarter.
Rob the Wop wrote:Not debating the issue of corruption in government, I'm shooting giant gaping holes in your argument. [But you're not doing this to "win" the argument, right? Riiiiiight... -Force] The logic, Tin Hat Fashion Man, [Nice ad hominem attack, I'm really put in my place now... -Force] is what I'm pointing out. It works whether you are discussing politics or plumbing fixtures.

Again, I present you an apple, [Ok, now hold on a second here. I can't recall you presenting jack shit. Which of your statements did I not understand as being meant to support your statements? -Force] and you hold up a left-handed spanner wrench as proof.

And I do this not to 'win' some kind of argument. [Ooooooookkkkkk... :roll: ]You don't do that with people such as yourselves, they would NEVER admit to being wrong in any way, shape, or form. I do it because it amuses me to point out the flaws in your 'reasoning' (again, very loosely termed).
I guess this preceding paragraph doesn't count as you awarding yourself a point for yourself in this little discussion/fish slapping contest we're having...

HOWEVER...

I'm afraid I have to declare myself the winner, based on the following from http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... 1764#81764 ;
Force wrote:
Rob the Wop wrote:<sigh>

Take some meds and read a book already. I'm not going to walk you down the path of how to dissect an argument, nor how an electronic voting machine can be made to be not worth the trouble to rig. Both require a basic understanding of logic and/or technology.

Of course, all powerful evil men can do anything, right? This can be refered to as 'playing the God card'. Or, in your case, simple paranoia.

Hey, I already said you won the argument. Enjoy the warmth that this gives your tiny, twisted mind.
All right then Logic Lad, here's an easier challenge for you; how about just CUTTING AND PASTING MY EXACT WORDS!!!!!!!! (I'm not that worked up, I cut and pasted YOUR EXACT WORDS!!!!!!!! to illustrate how both you and Joel totally miss the point, misinterpret, or misrepresent what you read when you're frothing at the mouth like this) and bolding the part you think is me saying we should seal our borders?

Oh, that's right, it's not there.

Who's the mental patient who sees what isn't there now?
Simply Joel wrote:i am really puzzled....

explanation of what?

apology for what?

too early, no coffee yet...

i woke up for this?
Apparently you've done some damage to your short term memory- here's a tickler;
Force wrote:
Simply Joel wrote: Solutions? I did a search of your posts, didn't find them... i must need glasses... or you could send links to all the proposals you claim to have posted.

why should you bother? your credibility or lack thereof is why you should bother.
I'll do that when you actually respond to my point (on which I have you dead to rights, btw) with an explanation as to why the first post on this thread isn't a blatant misrepresentation of what I said, or an apology and acknowledgment that it is.
Well, you guys have illustrated beautifully how you're just a couple of non-responsive mudflingers who make zero effort to respond to requests that you back up your shit, and back to back too! Nice! I couldn't have done it better myself! Bravo!

I, on the other hand, have responded again and again, making painfully clear what I was saying, but it's become clear to me you will hear/read what you want to hear/see, and that this is not a discussion, it's you waiting for me to say something you can fling mud at, like little children.

So I can't think of a better point to step out of this mudhole and watch while you make a little mud effigy of me and fling mud at it to make yourselves feel all important...

Again, have fun with your little war.

**note; for those new to Joel and Rob the Wop, don't bother scanning this thread in days to come for the response to this post, there won't be one... :lol:
Rob the Wop wrote: I'm pretty sure all I heard was <blah blah blah> mental patient <blah blah blah>. It truely is hard to have discussions with the insane. Buh bye.

As I had previously pointed out, I have already cleaned out the useless information in your post, stated your essential premises, and pointed out the logic that applies to your statement. I could break this down even further- but I know that you would be unable to understand what the hell I was doing the second time around. Even if you had the capacity to understand, you would still deny any ill thought out statement with the babbling refutations of a pathological liar. So what's the point?
Force wrote:So you admit that your conclusion was based on extrapolation, right?

Right.

And it's impossible for Rob The Wop to come to an incorrect conclusion why again?

I didn't notice any bolded words where I gave the impression I was for sealing our borders.

And once I clarify in no uncertain terms (over and over again) that I was using that example only to illustrate why the gov is full of crap, why would you continue to insist I meant something else?

Because you want to win an argument with me, why else?

Better luck next time furby.
Rob the Wop wrote:Whatever.

Sorry FLL, looks like you're 0 for 2. (Braces himself squinting for another of FLL's devastating "whatever" comebacks...)




And finally and most reasonably;
diane o'thirst wrote:Before we get bogged down in a head-to-head confrontation, let's keep sight of the prize here:

Bush needs to start packing his bags and getting the hekk out of the White House on November 3rd. Kerry has by far the best shot at doing that. You want four more wars and Mullah Ashcroft resurrecting the Taliban right here in the States?
Ex-fucking-zactly.


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Post by Simply Joel » Tue Oct 05, 2004 4:41 am

force, your opinions and arguments have the value and substance of my last fart.

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Post by Rob the Wop » Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:29 am

Again, a perfect example why debating with lunatics is pointless.
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the verdict; mud flingers

Post by Force » Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:46 am

Ah, thank you for those shining examples of logic and reasoning- I am now motivated to run to my local community college and sign up immediately.

You forgot to call me a poopy-head.

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Re: the verdict; mud flingers

Post by Simply Joel » Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:47 am

Force wrote:Ah, thank you for those shining examples of logic and reasoning- I am now motivated to run to my local community college and sign up immediately.

You forgot to call me a poopy-head.
you did it for me.

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Re: the verdict; mud flingers

Post by Rob the Wop » Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:54 am

Force wrote:Ah, thank you for those shining examples of logic and reasoning-
Not sure if you would recognize logic or reasoning even if they moved into your house and started using your credit cards.
Force wrote:I am now motivated to run to my local community college and sign up immediately.
Try a good therapist first. Treatment would prevent you from arguing with your instructors on what your name is.
Force wrote:You forgot to call me a poopy-head.
Would this be a long distance call to Bellevue?

BTW Diane, I'm baiting him simply because I find his reactions funny. When I punch holes in his logic, it's pretty obvious there's not a lot of forethought on his part. Then his rebuttals amuse the hell out of me. [/i]
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