Why War?
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calicowboy925
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So I am assuming you dont think the people of Iraq deserved to be saved from Saddam??? How about the chemical weapons he used on the N. Kurds, because they have different religeous beliefs? How about the hundreds of thousands of bodies we have found in the mass graves? How about the imprisoned thousands tortured including being put into grinders and cardboard baling machins??? I guess Saddam flippin the bird at UN sanctions and weapons inspectors was ok?? The facist Islamic revolutionaries HATE YOU, because you are not muslim. They are a threat to our existance, time to clean house of these cowards and their roadside bombs and continuing abuses of the Iraqi people... Quit being such an uniformed idiot, we've lost about 1000 of our service men, a big price to pay...did you know we lost 300,000 in a single battle in Europe during WWII, the last time we saved the world??? The embassy bombings, the 90's bomb in the WTC, the USS Cole, the Beruit bombings that killed hundreds of our Marines, the WTC 9/11, Pentagon, shoe bomber ....wake up moron..Semper Fi.....if you even know what that means....
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false dichotomySo I am assuming you dont think the people of Iraq deserved to be saved from Saddam???
you mean the ones we gave to him and authorized for that particular use and then quashed the resultant U.N. outcry?How about the chemical weapons he used on the N. Kurds
first, that's an exagerration on the order of Iraqis taking kuwaiti babies out of incubators prior to GWI. Second, the leading causes of unnatural death over the past quarter century in Iraq were due to U.N. sanctions.How about the hundreds of thousands of bodies we have found in the mass graves?
you mean at abu ghraib? heh, heh, heh.How about the imprisoned thousands tortured
saddam acutally capitulated on this before the deadline. No matter, sources inside the bush administration said war was gonna happen no matter what he did.I guess Saddam flippin the bird at UN sanctions and weapons inspectors was ok??
first, they are not fascist. They are theocratic. Second, they don't hate me because I am not muslim. When asked, they purport not to hate me at all really. When asked, what they really want is for us to get the fuck out of their countries.The facist Islamic revolutionaries HATE YOU, because you are not muslim.
fucking doubtfull.They are a threat to our existance
uh, they are the iraqi people friend. Please educate yourself on what an insurgency is. Try also guerilla war. Also, anyone massively outgunned and massively outfunded who still stands up to fight for their soveriegnty does not qualify as a coward in my book.time to clean house of these cowards and their roadside bombs and continuing abuses of the Iraqi people...
hehQuit being such an uniformed idiot
total Battle deaths for WWII: 291,557. Your credibility is shot. And that last time we saved the world? Well, we had some help with that one. Unlike this time out.did you know we lost 300,000 in a single battle in Europe during WWII, the last time we saved the world???
none of these have been credibly linked to Iraq. Stop watching Fox.The embassy bombings, the 90's bomb in the WTC, the USS Cole, the Beruit bombings that killed hundreds of our Marines, the WTC 9/11, Pentagon, shoe bomber
Semper Fidelis actually. : always faithful -- motto of the U.S. Marine CorpsSemper Fi.....if you even know what that means
this does not translate into always warlike, always the agressor or anything of the like. Actually, taken literally, seems like a usable motto for a religious fundamentalist of any stripe.
call me baby
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cowboyangel
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Simply Joel
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Simply Joel
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Simply Joel
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October 5, 2004
Quickening the Tempo in Iraq
By DAVID BROOKS
The pace of events seems to be quickening in Iraq. When I spoke to administration officials a few weeks ago, I got the sense that the U.S. and the Iraqi governments had no choice but to bide their time so they could train more Iraqi troops and work out political deals with wavering tribal leaders.
The prevailing view, often ascribed to Robert Blackwill of the National Security Council, was that a U.S.-dominated offensive would alienate more Iraqis than it would pacify. A major military attack did not seem likely until early winter.
But even then, powerful players were getting restive. As early as July, Colin Powell was arguing that it was simply unacceptable to permit cities like Falluja to remain as sanctuaries that terrorists could use to launch nationwide terrorist assaults. His old rival Donald Rumsfeld agreed with him on this one.
The defense secretary had been one of those most unhappy that the Marines had not taken control of Falluja in April when they had the chance.
And over the past few weeks the "take back the cities more quickly" argument seems to have gained ground. Kids are being blown up on the streets. There is a widening sense that while Iraqis may resent Americans' flexing their muscles, what they resent more is the fact that they can't walk down the street safely. And most important, the Iraqi interim prime minister, Ayad Allawi, has entered the fray.
Administration officials smile when they talk about Allawi, then marvel at how aggressive he is. Allawi believes that his government has to establish its authority if it, or any future government, is to do its job.
So an Iraqi-U.S. military offensive took back Samarra, and Rumsfeld said yesterday that Samarra is a model for what is about to happen in other towns in Iraq.
I asked Rumsfeld yesterday how decisions like the one to take back Samarra are made. Are Iraqis like Allawi really deciding when and where Americans fight?
He described a decision-making process that has no formal structure, but involves constant consultations, involving State Department types like Ambassador John Negroponte, military types like Gen. George Casey and Lt. Gen. Thomas Metz, and a raft of Iraqi officials. It also involves the big Washington honchos like Powell, Rumsfeld and Bush.
It was clear from our conversation (and from the way other administration officials talk about decision-making in Iraq) that the charge that Allawi is a puppet is just absurd. Allawi has the best feel for which Iraqi community or faction has to be catered to on any given day, and how best to reach over and get some Sunni support for the government. Moreover, Rumsfeld says the goal is to give Iraqis the room to make their own decisions: "The worst thing we can do is smother them."
Deciding where to go next depends on a complicated set of calculations. Are there enough Iraqi troops to hold a city once it is retaken? (American troops can take major roles in reclaiming towns in Sunni areas, but policing them afterward is another matter.) Where does the nascent Iraqi intelligence service have the best information? How will an offensive in this or that city affect the prospects of holding elections?
It's clear that Allawi and the Americans are looking for places where they can rack up victories (assuming they hold onto the one in Samarra). Most of the public conversation centers on retaking Falluja eventually, but Rumsfeld directed our interview to the pacification of Baghdad. "Baghdad is the big casino," he said. "You don't have Baghdad, you don't have Iraq."
Will this new, more aggressive mind-set improve things? There's an awful lot of pessimism around, including within the Pentagon, among people who know a lot about this stuff.
I know only three (contradictory) things. Every few weeks I hear about a new twist in American strategy or tactics. It always seems promising, but conditions don't improve. On the other hand, officials in this administration don't have a thought in their heads about not sticking this out.
Finally, it may not be long before we can realistically set our goals. The coming elections and the battles for the cities will either put Iraq on a path to normalcy or introduce us to some new hell. Yesterday, Rumsfeld said Iraq had "a crack" at being a success. At least he's not overhyping.
Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company
Quickening the Tempo in Iraq
By DAVID BROOKS
The pace of events seems to be quickening in Iraq. When I spoke to administration officials a few weeks ago, I got the sense that the U.S. and the Iraqi governments had no choice but to bide their time so they could train more Iraqi troops and work out political deals with wavering tribal leaders.
The prevailing view, often ascribed to Robert Blackwill of the National Security Council, was that a U.S.-dominated offensive would alienate more Iraqis than it would pacify. A major military attack did not seem likely until early winter.
But even then, powerful players were getting restive. As early as July, Colin Powell was arguing that it was simply unacceptable to permit cities like Falluja to remain as sanctuaries that terrorists could use to launch nationwide terrorist assaults. His old rival Donald Rumsfeld agreed with him on this one.
The defense secretary had been one of those most unhappy that the Marines had not taken control of Falluja in April when they had the chance.
And over the past few weeks the "take back the cities more quickly" argument seems to have gained ground. Kids are being blown up on the streets. There is a widening sense that while Iraqis may resent Americans' flexing their muscles, what they resent more is the fact that they can't walk down the street safely. And most important, the Iraqi interim prime minister, Ayad Allawi, has entered the fray.
Administration officials smile when they talk about Allawi, then marvel at how aggressive he is. Allawi believes that his government has to establish its authority if it, or any future government, is to do its job.
So an Iraqi-U.S. military offensive took back Samarra, and Rumsfeld said yesterday that Samarra is a model for what is about to happen in other towns in Iraq.
I asked Rumsfeld yesterday how decisions like the one to take back Samarra are made. Are Iraqis like Allawi really deciding when and where Americans fight?
He described a decision-making process that has no formal structure, but involves constant consultations, involving State Department types like Ambassador John Negroponte, military types like Gen. George Casey and Lt. Gen. Thomas Metz, and a raft of Iraqi officials. It also involves the big Washington honchos like Powell, Rumsfeld and Bush.
It was clear from our conversation (and from the way other administration officials talk about decision-making in Iraq) that the charge that Allawi is a puppet is just absurd. Allawi has the best feel for which Iraqi community or faction has to be catered to on any given day, and how best to reach over and get some Sunni support for the government. Moreover, Rumsfeld says the goal is to give Iraqis the room to make their own decisions: "The worst thing we can do is smother them."
Deciding where to go next depends on a complicated set of calculations. Are there enough Iraqi troops to hold a city once it is retaken? (American troops can take major roles in reclaiming towns in Sunni areas, but policing them afterward is another matter.) Where does the nascent Iraqi intelligence service have the best information? How will an offensive in this or that city affect the prospects of holding elections?
It's clear that Allawi and the Americans are looking for places where they can rack up victories (assuming they hold onto the one in Samarra). Most of the public conversation centers on retaking Falluja eventually, but Rumsfeld directed our interview to the pacification of Baghdad. "Baghdad is the big casino," he said. "You don't have Baghdad, you don't have Iraq."
Will this new, more aggressive mind-set improve things? There's an awful lot of pessimism around, including within the Pentagon, among people who know a lot about this stuff.
I know only three (contradictory) things. Every few weeks I hear about a new twist in American strategy or tactics. It always seems promising, but conditions don't improve. On the other hand, officials in this administration don't have a thought in their heads about not sticking this out.
Finally, it may not be long before we can realistically set our goals. The coming elections and the battles for the cities will either put Iraq on a path to normalcy or introduce us to some new hell. Yesterday, Rumsfeld said Iraq had "a crack" at being a success. At least he's not overhyping.
Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company
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cowboyangel
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Christian parenti has new book out on Iraq, google it, also his articles can be found online for free at http://www.the nation.com
his stuff puts a face on the above article and then some....
his stuff puts a face on the above article and then some....
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981
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cowboyangel
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what?//?
http://www.thenation.com
http://www.thenation.com
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981
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calicowboy925
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Well, thankfully the world and basically all three branches of our govt here are not led by Leftists who spout BS while cowering with their tails between their legs. This part of the world needs some degree of civility, machine guns in the hands of militias, especially in metropolitan areas cannot be tolerated, warlords will not be excused. I am glad you question, have doubts, even disagree with my position. The years of Marine barracks, Embassies and our warships being bombed without retaliation are over. Go ahead, protest, call names, whatever...the political Right is running the show and with candidates put forth such as Kerry, the Right will continue to call the shots. Just like in school, being a pussy only encourages the bully to take your lunch money...
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samtzu
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Fuck it! I'll say it...
We have no fucking business going into these countries and telling them how to live their lives. We have no business protecting our "interests" in countries that are mired in poverty because we don't make the people we are doing business with act in a responsible way towards their own citizens. We are not the world's policeman... and those ignorant dickheads who are willing to spill the blood of others to protect the business interests of their cronies out to be run out of office at a high rate of speed.
And those morons who then defend those dickheads, without getting a piece of the fucking pie themselves, are deluded little parrots, comfortable with their pickups, their boats, and their big fucking screen TV's, not thinking of the price that is being paid by their own neighbors... or the citizens of the country that our 'leaders' "liberated". They sit, comfortable, in their own little prejudices, not having to pay the fucking price of having to really, really, fight for what they believe in, because they don't fucking believe in anything... because they don't know what the true worth of life itself is!!! ARRRRGGGHHHH!!!! FUCK IGNORANCE!!!
Fuck!!! Ignorance is worn like a rinestone suit by these shitheads.
Fuck!!! I hate to rant.... because there is so much to say, so little time to say it, and then all the dickheads think you want to do is debate... when that is the furthest thing from your mind. Calicoboy... WAKE THE FUCK UP!!
FUCK THIS!!!! BACK TO THE BAR!!!!
We have no fucking business going into these countries and telling them how to live their lives. We have no business protecting our "interests" in countries that are mired in poverty because we don't make the people we are doing business with act in a responsible way towards their own citizens. We are not the world's policeman... and those ignorant dickheads who are willing to spill the blood of others to protect the business interests of their cronies out to be run out of office at a high rate of speed.
And those morons who then defend those dickheads, without getting a piece of the fucking pie themselves, are deluded little parrots, comfortable with their pickups, their boats, and their big fucking screen TV's, not thinking of the price that is being paid by their own neighbors... or the citizens of the country that our 'leaders' "liberated". They sit, comfortable, in their own little prejudices, not having to pay the fucking price of having to really, really, fight for what they believe in, because they don't fucking believe in anything... because they don't know what the true worth of life itself is!!! ARRRRGGGHHHH!!!! FUCK IGNORANCE!!!
Fuck!!! Ignorance is worn like a rinestone suit by these shitheads.
Fuck!!! I hate to rant.... because there is so much to say, so little time to say it, and then all the dickheads think you want to do is debate... when that is the furthest thing from your mind. Calicoboy... WAKE THE FUCK UP!!
FUCK THIS!!!! BACK TO THE BAR!!!!
The revolutionary does not grow up because he cannot grow, while the creative individual cannot grow up because he keeps growing ~~ Eric Hoffer
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Rian Jackson
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staurt... i love you.stuart wrote:false dichotomySo I am assuming you dont think the people of Iraq deserved to be saved from Saddam???
you mean the ones we gave to him and authorized for that particular use and then quashed the resultant U.N. outcry?How about the chemical weapons he used on the N. Kurds
first, that's an exagerration on the order of Iraqis taking kuwaiti babies out of incubators prior to GWI. Second, the leading causes of unnatural death over the past quarter century in Iraq were due to U.N. sanctions.How about the hundreds of thousands of bodies we have found in the mass graves?
you mean at abu ghraib? heh, heh, heh.How about the imprisoned thousands tortured
saddam acutally capitulated on this before the deadline. No matter, sources inside the bush administration said war was gonna happen no matter what he did.I guess Saddam flippin the bird at UN sanctions and weapons inspectors was ok??
first, they are not fascist. They are theocratic. Second, they don't hate me because I am not muslim. When asked, they purport not to hate me at all really. When asked, what they really want is for us to get the fuck out of their countries.The facist Islamic revolutionaries HATE YOU, because you are not muslim.
fucking doubtfull.They are a threat to our existance
uh, they are the iraqi people friend. Please educate yourself on what an insurgency is. Try also guerilla war. Also, anyone massively outgunned and massively outfunded who still stands up to fight for their soveriegnty does not qualify as a coward in my book.time to clean house of these cowards and their roadside bombs and continuing abuses of the Iraqi people...
hehQuit being such an uniformed idiot
total Battle deaths for WWII: 291,557. Your credibility is shot. And that last time we saved the world? Well, we had some help with that one. Unlike this time out.did you know we lost 300,000 in a single battle in Europe during WWII, the last time we saved the world???
none of these have been credibly linked to Iraq. Stop watching Fox.The embassy bombings, the 90's bomb in the WTC, the USS Cole, the Beruit bombings that killed hundreds of our Marines, the WTC 9/11, Pentagon, shoe bomber
Semper Fidelis actually. : always faithful -- motto of the U.S. Marine CorpsSemper Fi.....if you even know what that means
this does not translate into always warlike, always the agressor or anything of the like. Actually, taken literally, seems like a usable motto for a religious fundamentalist of any stripe.
thank you thank you......
surlier than thou
YAY!!!! ThankyouThankyouThankyou!!!!!!! Well done, beautiful, and all that! The drinks are on me!!samtzu wrote:Fuck it! I'll say it...
We have no fucking business going into these countries and telling them how to live their lives. We have no business protecting our "interests" in countries that are mired in poverty because we don't make the people we are doing business with act in a responsible way towards their own citizens. We are not the world's policeman... and those ignorant dickheads who are willing to spill the blood of others to protect the business interests of their cronies out to be run out of office at a high rate of speed.
And those morons who then defend those dickheads, without getting a piece of the fucking pie themselves, are deluded little parrots, comfortable with their pickups, their boats, and their big fucking screen TV's, not thinking of the price that is being paid by their own neighbors... or the citizens of the country that our 'leaders' "liberated". They sit, comfortable, in their own little prejudices, not having to pay the fucking price of having to really, really, fight for what they believe in, because they don't fucking believe in anything... because they don't know what the true worth of life itself is!!! ARRRRGGGHHHH!!!! FUCK IGNORANCE!!!
Fuck!!! Ignorance is worn like a rinestone suit by these shitheads.
Fuck!!! I hate to rant.... because there is so much to say, so little time to say it, and then all the dickheads think you want to do is debate... when that is the furthest thing from your mind. Calicoboy... WAKE THE FUCK UP!!
FUCK THIS!!!! BACK TO THE BAR!!!!
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calicowboy925
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OK, here's the strangest twist to this yet...Sam, I agree almost completely with your last post. (I know, hard to believe right!) Yes, the business contacts, the irresponsible treatment they afford their own citizens...and I agree, we are not, should not be the world policemen. I do take offense to your assumptions about my knowledge of the "high price" paid......My brother Tom never came home from Vietnam, my father served in WWII, Korea and Vietnam. I served 12 years in the Army and was in Grenada...I know all too well Sam, and I do not take it lightly. So tell me Sam...what do YOU know of the high price paid by our servicemen???
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cowboyangel
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Rian Jackson
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samtzu
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CA wrote: 
I hate bullies and fascists. I hate bullying and fascism. Right does not make right... and revenge is for chumps. The US does not belong in the Middle East as an occupation force, and never should have gone in to Iraq. That is how I feel about the whole fucking thing in a fucking nutshell.
However, if the US was going to go in, it should have had an exit strategy... which it didn't. Now, because of the hubris of the current administration and the military, we have young people dying for people who just want them to leave.... and they can't leave because the "Leaders" would lose face. Well, FUCK FACE... these young people are losing real faces, and limbs, and their very lives.
I don't see a vehicle for a real change in the current world situation (including our own corrupt national elections) except for divine intervention. The Powers the Be have been The Powers that Be for several centuries (yeah, I have read my history, both modern and ancient) and even though the players in this grotesque version of Musical Chairs change all the time, the chairs themselves have not. Check out the Fourteenth century some time. The same games were played over the third world culture of Europe... using the same slash and burn methods. The only cure I see that will help the unpowerful peoples of the world is to remove power from all hands.... ALL HANDS... which, realistically, we are unable to do. Someone will always grabs for that power. I have shouted "Power to the people!" with the rest of them, but in the end, the people are corrupted by it too (Tom Hayden or Vladimir Lenin, they all get corrupted). In the end I have no solution to what I call "The Human Problem". As Walt Kelly put into the mouth of Albert the Alligator, "We have met the enemy, and he is us..."
I apologize for foaming at the mouth on my previous post. It did nothing for understanding, and it did nothing for me. I don't know if this post will do any more either, but at least it is in a little mellower tone. But I do mean what I said about bullies and fascists. It's the one thing guaranteed to make the top of my head smoke like Mt. St. Helen's is doing right now.
Sam
LOL!!!wrong question......
I hate bullies and fascists. I hate bullying and fascism. Right does not make right... and revenge is for chumps. The US does not belong in the Middle East as an occupation force, and never should have gone in to Iraq. That is how I feel about the whole fucking thing in a fucking nutshell.
However, if the US was going to go in, it should have had an exit strategy... which it didn't. Now, because of the hubris of the current administration and the military, we have young people dying for people who just want them to leave.... and they can't leave because the "Leaders" would lose face. Well, FUCK FACE... these young people are losing real faces, and limbs, and their very lives.
I don't see a vehicle for a real change in the current world situation (including our own corrupt national elections) except for divine intervention. The Powers the Be have been The Powers that Be for several centuries (yeah, I have read my history, both modern and ancient) and even though the players in this grotesque version of Musical Chairs change all the time, the chairs themselves have not. Check out the Fourteenth century some time. The same games were played over the third world culture of Europe... using the same slash and burn methods. The only cure I see that will help the unpowerful peoples of the world is to remove power from all hands.... ALL HANDS... which, realistically, we are unable to do. Someone will always grabs for that power. I have shouted "Power to the people!" with the rest of them, but in the end, the people are corrupted by it too (Tom Hayden or Vladimir Lenin, they all get corrupted). In the end I have no solution to what I call "The Human Problem". As Walt Kelly put into the mouth of Albert the Alligator, "We have met the enemy, and he is us..."
I apologize for foaming at the mouth on my previous post. It did nothing for understanding, and it did nothing for me. I don't know if this post will do any more either, but at least it is in a little mellower tone. But I do mean what I said about bullies and fascists. It's the one thing guaranteed to make the top of my head smoke like Mt. St. Helen's is doing right now.
Sam
The revolutionary does not grow up because he cannot grow, while the creative individual cannot grow up because he keeps growing ~~ Eric Hoffer
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buckethead alien
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Simply Joel
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October 6, 2004
The Afghan Miracle
By WILLIAM SAFIRE
WASHINGTON
Let's not be taken in when defeatists try to pooh-pooh the promise of this week's election in Afghanistan.
Already the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe - more insecure and uncooperative than usual - has announced that it will refuse to declare this coming election to be free and fair. European nit-picking about "irregularities" will be fierce from high-minded bureaucrats who do not realize that the most irregular thing in that part of the world is anything approximating a free election.
Too much world media coverage will focus on pictures of violence at polling places, not on the big news: lines of courageous Afghans patiently waiting to vote. Tinhorn despots are passing out leaflets in refugee camps promising divine rewards to anyone who kills a poll worker.
Such terrorist acts by die-hard Taliban insurgents may be excitingly pictorial, but images of Muslims, especially women, voting for the first time - and of candidates for office literally taking their lives in their hands to campaign - are deemed not sufficiently mesmerizing.
Another reason to downplay or dismiss Election Day in Afghanistan is that it is clearly good news for America and its allies, who are directly responsible for this outbreak of freedom in a Muslim land.
If the mountain people of this war-ravaged nation, whose cash crop is poppies for illegal opium, can stand up to their tormentors and grasp the powers of democracy, their example will offer hope to the better-educated Iraqis sitting on their nation's sea of oil. Afghanistan would be the first good domino to tip over.
When the Afghan president Hamid Karzai visited here a few months ago, he told us of his hopes to persuade some 7 million of the 10 million eligible Afghan voters to register. He underestimated his people's hunger for representative government: despite threats to registration centers, and in the face of assassination attempts on the lives of candidates, over 10 million Afghans have registered, plus 2 million more in Afghan refugee camps in Pakistan and Iran.
That's a political miracle. It also does not add up; some people are apparently registering more than once. ("Vote early and often" is supposed to be a joke. U.S. pollsters have never measured an electorate in which likely voters outnumber registered voters.)
But the indisputable fact of the enthusiasm for voting is what is so heartening. Afghans look with wonderment at their secret ballot, and take real risks for the freedom Americans take for granted.
Who's ahead? Karzai is the front-runner in a field of 18, but will face a runoff if he falls short of 50 percent of the vote. Yunus Qanooni is the dark horse. That's the beauty of an election, even one with vote-buying and other "imperfections": it's rarely a sure thing.
I asked Karzai during his visit here about his country's warlord problem; would these local satraps with their private militas, and corrupted by opium profits, take direction from the elected central government in Kabul?
"Warlord is a hard word," he replied mildly, trying to be a good politician. "I prefer to call them 'regional leaders.' "
But what about the likes of Gen. Abdul Rashid Dostum, the Uzbek strongman who has been exercising his newfound right of free speech to blaze away at the government for not ensuring security or getting money for reconstruction? Karzai smiled. "You could call him a warlord."
Welcome, then, to the world's interrelated four-month, four-nation election cycle:
Afghans, fighting their unaccustomed way to the polls through feudal fundamentalists and Arab terrorists, will be the most closely watched. But Australians also vote this weekend. Prime Minister John Howard has reaffirmed the traditional Australian-American alliance; he is opposed in the elections by Labor's Mark Latham, the bring-the-boys-home-from-Iraq-by-Christmas candidate.
Then come the U.S. elections, about which you heard plenty last night.
Finally, Iraqi elections are scheduled for January. These will be influenced by the Afghan electoral example, and by the Australian decision signaling the breadth of future coalition support. Most of all, the U.S. election outcome will tell Iraqi voters to expect U.S. help in building a new life in a federal system - or to worry about helicopters hurriedly leaving the roof of the U.S. embassy.
Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company
The Afghan Miracle
By WILLIAM SAFIRE
WASHINGTON
Let's not be taken in when defeatists try to pooh-pooh the promise of this week's election in Afghanistan.
Already the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe - more insecure and uncooperative than usual - has announced that it will refuse to declare this coming election to be free and fair. European nit-picking about "irregularities" will be fierce from high-minded bureaucrats who do not realize that the most irregular thing in that part of the world is anything approximating a free election.
Too much world media coverage will focus on pictures of violence at polling places, not on the big news: lines of courageous Afghans patiently waiting to vote. Tinhorn despots are passing out leaflets in refugee camps promising divine rewards to anyone who kills a poll worker.
Such terrorist acts by die-hard Taliban insurgents may be excitingly pictorial, but images of Muslims, especially women, voting for the first time - and of candidates for office literally taking their lives in their hands to campaign - are deemed not sufficiently mesmerizing.
Another reason to downplay or dismiss Election Day in Afghanistan is that it is clearly good news for America and its allies, who are directly responsible for this outbreak of freedom in a Muslim land.
If the mountain people of this war-ravaged nation, whose cash crop is poppies for illegal opium, can stand up to their tormentors and grasp the powers of democracy, their example will offer hope to the better-educated Iraqis sitting on their nation's sea of oil. Afghanistan would be the first good domino to tip over.
When the Afghan president Hamid Karzai visited here a few months ago, he told us of his hopes to persuade some 7 million of the 10 million eligible Afghan voters to register. He underestimated his people's hunger for representative government: despite threats to registration centers, and in the face of assassination attempts on the lives of candidates, over 10 million Afghans have registered, plus 2 million more in Afghan refugee camps in Pakistan and Iran.
That's a political miracle. It also does not add up; some people are apparently registering more than once. ("Vote early and often" is supposed to be a joke. U.S. pollsters have never measured an electorate in which likely voters outnumber registered voters.)
But the indisputable fact of the enthusiasm for voting is what is so heartening. Afghans look with wonderment at their secret ballot, and take real risks for the freedom Americans take for granted.
Who's ahead? Karzai is the front-runner in a field of 18, but will face a runoff if he falls short of 50 percent of the vote. Yunus Qanooni is the dark horse. That's the beauty of an election, even one with vote-buying and other "imperfections": it's rarely a sure thing.
I asked Karzai during his visit here about his country's warlord problem; would these local satraps with their private militas, and corrupted by opium profits, take direction from the elected central government in Kabul?
"Warlord is a hard word," he replied mildly, trying to be a good politician. "I prefer to call them 'regional leaders.' "
But what about the likes of Gen. Abdul Rashid Dostum, the Uzbek strongman who has been exercising his newfound right of free speech to blaze away at the government for not ensuring security or getting money for reconstruction? Karzai smiled. "You could call him a warlord."
Welcome, then, to the world's interrelated four-month, four-nation election cycle:
Afghans, fighting their unaccustomed way to the polls through feudal fundamentalists and Arab terrorists, will be the most closely watched. But Australians also vote this weekend. Prime Minister John Howard has reaffirmed the traditional Australian-American alliance; he is opposed in the elections by Labor's Mark Latham, the bring-the-boys-home-from-Iraq-by-Christmas candidate.
Then come the U.S. elections, about which you heard plenty last night.
Finally, Iraqi elections are scheduled for January. These will be influenced by the Afghan electoral example, and by the Australian decision signaling the breadth of future coalition support. Most of all, the U.S. election outcome will tell Iraqi voters to expect U.S. help in building a new life in a federal system - or to worry about helicopters hurriedly leaving the roof of the U.S. embassy.
Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company
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calicowboy925
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Sam...I appreciate your words, and your thoughts, I respect your well thought position. I am not some violence loving small minded warmonger. I only know the mid-east is a place in turmoil. Yes, I would like to think we had an idea of how to get the hell out of there. I am also not a "strictly on party lines" type eiter, I'll call a turd a turd. This is a turd! IF, and thats a big IF, democracy could be implanted, if the people could live free, I truly think the world, as a result of a peaceful mid East, would be a better place. The whole tie to Isreal that I have heard mentioned is another strange facet to all of this...that aside, at least our banter makes me think, and others too I hope....
Love and Laugh With Me!!!
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Rian Jackson
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Rob the Wop
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Rian Jackson
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- Location: In Rob's Head
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Rian Jackson
- Posts: 3903
- Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:30 pm
- Location: In Rob's Head
i told them 'no we're not!'Rian Jackson wrote:and they said you were unteachable.Rob the Wop wrote:The voices in my head are yelling at Jesus in their heads? And I thought Jesus had nails, not claws. (ok, that was a bad one...)Rian Jackson wrote:[internal monologue] jesus! retract claws!{click. click} [/internal monologue]
surlier than thou
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samtzu
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All I would ask is that you think very carefully before you post. This passive/aggressive stance (sometimes a redneck, sometimes a good old boy, and sometimes a well read, reasoning individual supposedly untouched by groupthink) is a bit disingeneous, and there are people on the threads with a lot of experience with war, politics, and the Middle East. You can take any stance (or persona) that you wish, of course, but you might run into some mighty big walls of flame around here. If you're ready for it, well then, go for it... and expect a warm reception.calicowboy925 wrote:Sam...I appreciate your words, and your thoughts, I respect your well thought position. I am not some violence loving small minded warmonger. I only know the mid-east is a place in turmoil. Yes, I would like to think we had an idea of how to get the hell out of there. I am also not a "strictly on party lines" type eiter, I'll call a turd a turd. This is a turd! IF, and thats a big IF, democracy could be implanted, if the people could live free, I truly think the world, as a result of a peaceful mid East, would be a better place. The whole tie to Isreal that I have heard mentioned is another strange facet to all of this...that aside, at least our banter makes me think, and others too I hope....
As a hint: avoid the topic of Israel unless you want to see your intestines spilled across Tisha's bar room floor. I'm not concerned about it, but there is one vicious little green giant that has experienced it first hand and doesn't suffer fools or take prisoners...
The revolutionary does not grow up because he cannot grow, while the creative individual cannot grow up because he keeps growing ~~ Eric Hoffer
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Rian Jackson
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Well, sometimes i have nice, reasoned conversations.
And some days not.
Gaza death toll = too high to count = options for niceties aren't too high.
on the contrary, good mood = potential for leniency.
hmmm..
all i can say is 'goodness, gracious, great balls o' fire!'
seriously, though, i was curious about which 'connection' he had in mind.
the attempt to blame suicide bombers on Saddam?
the support of Palestine by many Iraqis?
the parallels in the struggles?
the ''US controlled Iraq + Israel = greater US control of middle east" angle?
the support of somei n the ranks of Fateh for SH because he wassuch a vocal advocate for them?
the theory that when world eyes were turned to Iraq the Israelis could do what they wanted with little censure? (no, i don't know how the stats worked out. it was a major fear...)
curious. see, i like information. i like to mull it, process it, inform where needed, and occasionally rip someone a new asshole.
awww, ain't i loveable today?
And some days not.
Gaza death toll = too high to count = options for niceties aren't too high.
on the contrary, good mood = potential for leniency.
hmmm..
all i can say is 'goodness, gracious, great balls o' fire!'
seriously, though, i was curious about which 'connection' he had in mind.
the attempt to blame suicide bombers on Saddam?
the support of Palestine by many Iraqis?
the parallels in the struggles?
the ''US controlled Iraq + Israel = greater US control of middle east" angle?
the support of somei n the ranks of Fateh for SH because he wassuch a vocal advocate for them?
the theory that when world eyes were turned to Iraq the Israelis could do what they wanted with little censure? (no, i don't know how the stats worked out. it was a major fear...)
curious. see, i like information. i like to mull it, process it, inform where needed, and occasionally rip someone a new asshole.
awww, ain't i loveable today?
surlier than thou
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Rian Jackson
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- Location: In Rob's Head
i think i'll take that as a compliment... thanks Sam... i miss you!samtzu wrote:
As a hint: avoid the topic of Israel unless you want to see your intestines spilled across Tisha's bar room floor. I'm not concerned about it, but there is one vicious little green giant that has experienced it first hand and doesn't suffer fools or take prisoners...
surlier than thou
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calicowboy925
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