Well, I heard it on the radio again. My perception: Bush kicked Bush's own ass. Kerry was all right, missed a lot of good opportunites to make important points, and is obviously not a "great man", but at least he's intelligent, competent, and mature. Kerry did score some really good hits by quoting Republicans like McCain and Lugar who were strongly criticizing Bush's actions, demonstrating that Bush's fuckups transcend partisan sniping. But Bush was flat-out horrible.
Just listening to the debate, I don't know if Bush's "body language" or whatever was better than last week, but he sounded like a petulant, spoiled brat, and occasionally a complete dumbass. It's totally obvious that he's used to never being contradicted and is insulated from tough questions about his policies, and gets flat out mad when confronted with them. I mean come on, how about this little exchange?:
GIBSON: Mr. President, the next question is for you, and it comes from Jonathan Michaelson, over here.
MICHAELSON: Mr. President, if there were a vacancy in the Supreme Court and you had the opportunity to fill that position today, who would you choose and why?
BUSH: I'm not telling.
Of course the transcript doesn't reflect his awkward pause before that ridiculous answer. I mean, yes he elaborated, but that first response- the reaction of a priveleged ruler who thinks of himself as someone who doesn't have to answer to the people, instead of a public servant with the most important job in the nation.
(In his elaboration he sounded like an idiot to me as well, saying we wanted judges who"strictly interpreted" the Constitution, then said "I wouldn't pick a judge who said that the Pledge of Allegiance couldn't be said in a school because it had the words "under God" in it.' Well first of all, only the tacked-on-in-the-fifties words "under God" have been in question, not whether Pledge itself could be said. Second, the Constitution clearly states: 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion' , so a strict interpretation of the Constitution would mean "under God" in the national Pledge is right out. What he really meant is he would pick a judge who held the same views as the religious right.)
When the abortion question came up, it showed very clearly Bush's lack of ability to deal with moral complexities or long, complicated messages.
DEGENHART: Senator Kerry, suppose you are speaking with a voter who believed abortion is murder and the voter asked for reassurance that his or her tax dollars would not go to support abortion, what would you say to that person?
KERRY: I would say to that person exactly what I will say to you right now.
First of all, I cannot tell you how deeply I respect the belief about life and when it begins. I'm a Catholic, raised a Catholic. I was an altar boy. Religion has been a huge part of my life. It helped lead me through a war, leads me today.
But I can't take what is an article of faith for me and legislate it for someone who doesn't share that article of faith, whether they be agnostic, atheist, Jew, Protestant, whatever. I can't do that.
But I can counsel people. I can talk reasonably about life and about responsibility. I can talk to people, as my wife Teresa does, about making other choices, and about abstinence, and about all these other things that we ought to do as a responsible society.
But as a president, I have to represent all the people in the nation. And I have to make that judgment.
Now, I believe that you can take that position and not be pro- abortion, but you have to afford people their constitutional rights. And that means being smart about allowing people to be fully educated, to know what their options are in life, and making certain that you don't deny a poor person the right to be able to have whatever the constitution affords them if they can't afford it otherwise.
That's why I think it's important. That's why I think it's important for the United States, for instance, not to have this rigid ideological restriction on helping families around the world to be able to make a smart decision about family planning.
You'll help prevent AIDS.
You'll help prevent unwanted children, unwanted pregnancies.
You'll actually do a better job, I think, of passing on the moral responsibility that is expressed in your question. And I truly respect it.
Now, was that that hard to follow? He basically said "I repsect the antiabortion viewpoint, my own religion teaches the same thing, but I can't try to turn my own religious beliefs into law. The best thing we can do is educate people, and that will reduce AIDS and other problems as well as unwanted pregnancies. And a poor person has as much right to an abortion as a rich person" - which means that if a poor person recieves medical aid from the government, abortion should be part of that. You may disagree with Kerry, but his meaning seemed obvious to me. Bush responded with:
BUSH: I'm trying to decipher that.
Then went in to his basic "antiabortion as I can get away with in public" posturing, and his black-and-white view of the world. Kerry explained that he voted against the partial-birth abortion ban because it didn't take into account the health of the mother, and Bush responds "Are you for a ban on partial birth abortion? Yes or no?" The very concept of circumstances influencing morality seems beyond him.
Factually, Kerry tromped Bush. When asked about stem-cell research, Kerry explained that there are over 100,000 frozen embryos in this country that will either be destroyed or just kept frozen that we could be using for research but can't because of Bush's policies, and Bush tried to counter by saying that the 22 available were enough. Bush sounded like a bumbling idiot when asked about his environmental record - and yes, at that moment he did sound like he was trying to decipher answers that were being fed to him- and finally said the air is cleaner, when all anybody has to do is look out their window and see it's not. Bush defended the Patriot Act by repeating over and over that FBI agents needed it to be able to talk to each other and it shouldn't be changed at all, while Kerry was able to point out the quite obvious abuses that that have occured because of it.
I think one of the most telling moments was when Bush was asked if he could name three mistakes he's made, and what he's done to correct them. Of course he couldn't admit to a single mistake (except for appointing certain unnamed people, which shifts the fault on the appointees, not him), but it seemed to me that he really started to lose it:
Bush: But on the big questions, about whether or not we should have gone into Afghanistan [of course, no one's challenging that] , the big question about whether we should have removed somebody in Iraq, I'll stand by those decisions, because I think they're right.
That's really what you're -- when they ask about the mistakes, that's what they're talking about. They're trying to say, "Did you make a mistake going into Iraq?" And the answer is, "Absolutely not." It was the right decision.
I mean, who's this "they"? This was a single woman asking a question, and he freaked out.
Bush blew it bad, in my opinion. He doesn't come across as fit to be in charge of the local Elk's Club, let alone a government - intolerant, immature, manipulative in the most dishonest of ways.
By the way, all my quotes are from www.debates.org
The second debate
The second debate
"Of what use is a philosopher who doesn't hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes
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Simply Joel
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and now, another perspective.
October 11, 2004
OP-ED COLUMNIST
How Bush Won Round 2
By WILLIAM SAFIRE
Washington
When pro-Kerry commentators solemnly pronounce Debate Round 2 to have been "a draw" - you know George Bush won that round.
The president won because he went in with a theme spoken by the heavyweight champion Joe Louis, just before his 1946 rematch victory over the lighter, faster Billy Conn: "He can run, but he can't hide." (The Brown Bomber caught up with Conn in the eighth round of that first TV spectacular.)
Bush's debate plan was to keep boring in on the Kerry record: flip-flopping this year on the war, but all too consistently liberal for 20 years on tax increases.
On the war, Kerry almost eagerly made Bush's point, at first saying, "I do believe Saddam Hussein was a threat," and moments later denouncing Bush for being "preoccupied with Iraq, where there wasn't a threat."
The president exploited the contradiction in Kerry's latest policy, which claims the ability to attract troop support from France, Germany and Russia - while agreeing with them that the war was a diversion. To Kerry's "plan" to hold a summit, Bush asked: "And what is he going to say to those people that show up to the summit? 'Join me in the wrong war at the wrong time at the wrong place'?"
Although Kerry accused the Bush campaign of "mass deception," he let the president focus on that illogical policy. The Democrat weakly cited recent worrying by Republican Senators Richard Lugar and Chuck Hagel, recited a list of retired generals who endorsed him and embraced Ronald Reagan. Such a stretch for conservative company, followed by a plaintive "We will get tough!," hardly shows strength.
When Kerry complained again of "going it alone," Bush was ready with a powerful counterpunch: "Tell Tony Blair we're going alone. Tell Silvio Berlusconi we're going alone. Tell Aleksander Kwasniewski we're going alone."
This not only showed that Bush knew these allies personally, but could also pronounce Kwasniewski's name, which reminded Polish-Americans that Poland's president had responded angrily to Kerry's brushoff of his country's sacrifices in the first debate. (Next day, Australians re-elected John Howard, a staunch coalition member, who trounced a cut-and-run opponent - good news for coalition leaders.)
When the questioning turned to taxes, Kerry pandered with a liberal's absurd promise not to sign legislation raising taxes on anybody making less than $200,000 a year, neglecting only to say,"Read my lips."
Kerry also blundered with a weird attack on an $84 item in the Bushes' federal income tax return, supposedly from a timber business. "I own a timber company? That's news to me," said Bush, adding engagingly in what was the most natural moment in the debate, "Need some wood?" It turns out that Kerry relied on an Annenberg Web site that later admitted it had been confused, which left the Democratic candidate out on a hardwood limb. Bush was too much the gentleman to point out, now that their income taxes were in dispute, that Mrs. Heinz Kerry paid only 11 percent in 2003 on her $5 million income, while the Bushes paid 28 percent.
(Although every Bush slip gets delighted examination - he called Kerry "Kennedy" and he said, "Internets"; can you imagine? - Kerry's minor gaffes attract little notice. When citing his overseas travel in the first debate, Kerry talked of visiting the old K.G.B. headquarters "in Treblinka square." He meant Lubyanka Square; Treblinka was the Nazi death camp. We all make mistakes.)
As Bush picked up steam, Kerry seemed to lose heart, again evoking Lugar and Hagel, skillfully backing away like Billy Conn. Asked about high damage awards gained by trial lawyers that drive up everybody's insurance premiums, he replied that John Edwards and he "support tort reform," even to limitations on punitive awards. Bush delivered a body blow: "You're now for capping punitive damages. That's odd. You should have shown up on the floor in the Senate and voted for it then."
In an anguishing moment, Kerry said he was against partial-birth abortion (as are most voters, including many pro-choice) and then explained why he voted against the ban that is now law. Countered Bush: "He was given a chance to vote and he voted no. . . . It's clear for everybody to see. And as I said, you can run, but you can't hide."
Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company
October 11, 2004
OP-ED COLUMNIST
How Bush Won Round 2
By WILLIAM SAFIRE
Washington
When pro-Kerry commentators solemnly pronounce Debate Round 2 to have been "a draw" - you know George Bush won that round.
The president won because he went in with a theme spoken by the heavyweight champion Joe Louis, just before his 1946 rematch victory over the lighter, faster Billy Conn: "He can run, but he can't hide." (The Brown Bomber caught up with Conn in the eighth round of that first TV spectacular.)
Bush's debate plan was to keep boring in on the Kerry record: flip-flopping this year on the war, but all too consistently liberal for 20 years on tax increases.
On the war, Kerry almost eagerly made Bush's point, at first saying, "I do believe Saddam Hussein was a threat," and moments later denouncing Bush for being "preoccupied with Iraq, where there wasn't a threat."
The president exploited the contradiction in Kerry's latest policy, which claims the ability to attract troop support from France, Germany and Russia - while agreeing with them that the war was a diversion. To Kerry's "plan" to hold a summit, Bush asked: "And what is he going to say to those people that show up to the summit? 'Join me in the wrong war at the wrong time at the wrong place'?"
Although Kerry accused the Bush campaign of "mass deception," he let the president focus on that illogical policy. The Democrat weakly cited recent worrying by Republican Senators Richard Lugar and Chuck Hagel, recited a list of retired generals who endorsed him and embraced Ronald Reagan. Such a stretch for conservative company, followed by a plaintive "We will get tough!," hardly shows strength.
When Kerry complained again of "going it alone," Bush was ready with a powerful counterpunch: "Tell Tony Blair we're going alone. Tell Silvio Berlusconi we're going alone. Tell Aleksander Kwasniewski we're going alone."
This not only showed that Bush knew these allies personally, but could also pronounce Kwasniewski's name, which reminded Polish-Americans that Poland's president had responded angrily to Kerry's brushoff of his country's sacrifices in the first debate. (Next day, Australians re-elected John Howard, a staunch coalition member, who trounced a cut-and-run opponent - good news for coalition leaders.)
When the questioning turned to taxes, Kerry pandered with a liberal's absurd promise not to sign legislation raising taxes on anybody making less than $200,000 a year, neglecting only to say,"Read my lips."
Kerry also blundered with a weird attack on an $84 item in the Bushes' federal income tax return, supposedly from a timber business. "I own a timber company? That's news to me," said Bush, adding engagingly in what was the most natural moment in the debate, "Need some wood?" It turns out that Kerry relied on an Annenberg Web site that later admitted it had been confused, which left the Democratic candidate out on a hardwood limb. Bush was too much the gentleman to point out, now that their income taxes were in dispute, that Mrs. Heinz Kerry paid only 11 percent in 2003 on her $5 million income, while the Bushes paid 28 percent.
(Although every Bush slip gets delighted examination - he called Kerry "Kennedy" and he said, "Internets"; can you imagine? - Kerry's minor gaffes attract little notice. When citing his overseas travel in the first debate, Kerry talked of visiting the old K.G.B. headquarters "in Treblinka square." He meant Lubyanka Square; Treblinka was the Nazi death camp. We all make mistakes.)
As Bush picked up steam, Kerry seemed to lose heart, again evoking Lugar and Hagel, skillfully backing away like Billy Conn. Asked about high damage awards gained by trial lawyers that drive up everybody's insurance premiums, he replied that John Edwards and he "support tort reform," even to limitations on punitive awards. Bush delivered a body blow: "You're now for capping punitive damages. That's odd. You should have shown up on the floor in the Senate and voted for it then."
In an anguishing moment, Kerry said he was against partial-birth abortion (as are most voters, including many pro-choice) and then explained why he voted against the ban that is now law. Countered Bush: "He was given a chance to vote and he voted no. . . . It's clear for everybody to see. And as I said, you can run, but you can't hide."
Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company
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Bob
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" Need some wood?"
'Nuff said.
'Nuff said.
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/
"Let us say I suggest you may be human." -- Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam
"Let us say I suggest you may be human." -- Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam
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calicowboy925
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I just cannot imagine supporting the Democrat "Party of Lawyers" ticket with 2 trial lawyers including the freshman senator with ZERO experience who missed what was it 33 of 35 sessions/votes???? Yeah, this meek little mouse and his backwoods drawl one heartbeat from leading the free world? I dont think so!
Love and Laugh With Me!!!
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Simply Joel
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Bob
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Face it, the Democrats have been on a 24/7 suicide watch since Dean took the pike.
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/
"Let us say I suggest you may be human." -- Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam
"Let us say I suggest you may be human." -- Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam
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DVD Burner
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Simply Joel
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Bob
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I've got a cite, btw:
An Algorithm for Determining the Winners of U.S. Presidential Elections
An Algorithm for Determining the Winners of U.S. Presidential Elections
Hope this... helps?The algorithm correctly determines the winner of each of the 54 U.S. presidential elections between 1789 and 2000. Our algorithm predicts that President George W. Bush and Vice President Richard B. Cheney will win the 2004 election unless:
1) the Democratic nominee for President is Howard B. Dean,
2) the Democratic nominee for President is Wesley K. Clark and the Democratic nominee for Vice President has been Vice President for at least two years, a governor for at least five years, or a U.S. Representative for at least five years,
3) the Democratic nominee for President is Richard A. Gephardt and the Democratic nominee for Vice President is a banker, a college or university chancellor or president, or the child of a U.S. Senator, or
4)the Democratic nominee for Vice President is Albert A. Gore, Jr. or John D. Rockefeller, IV, and the Democratic nominee for President has not been divorced, has not been a special prosecutor, and is a Protestant, Deist, or Catholic.
Although any of the currently declared Democratic candidates for President could, in theory, win in 2004 if they carefully choose their vice presidential candidates, in practice it would be difficult for many of them to find candidates for Vice President with the right combination of governmental and non-governmental experience.
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/
"Let us say I suggest you may be human." -- Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam
"Let us say I suggest you may be human." -- Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam
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sparkletarte
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I find it very disturbing that religion comes up so frequently in questions, answers, and general US politics. It hardly gets mentioned in Canada. It's funny when people talk about Kerry and his supporters being so 'liberal' and 'left wing'. He's so not.
I have no clue who's going to come out on top with this election. Unfortunately Bush seems to appeal to a ridiculous amount of people, for some reason, er, because he's a down-home guy I guess. The best quote(scariest? No, that goes to the woman who votes for Bush because he believes in God so whatever he does is okay by her) I ever heard was a woman who said she'd vote for Bush because he's the kind of man she could invite over for coffee and feel comfortable with. His marketing people are good.
I have a spare room if Bush gets re-elected and anyone wants to move out of the country.
I have no clue who's going to come out on top with this election. Unfortunately Bush seems to appeal to a ridiculous amount of people, for some reason, er, because he's a down-home guy I guess. The best quote(scariest? No, that goes to the woman who votes for Bush because he believes in God so whatever he does is okay by her) I ever heard was a woman who said she'd vote for Bush because he's the kind of man she could invite over for coffee and feel comfortable with. His marketing people are good.
I have a spare room if Bush gets re-elected and anyone wants to move out of the country.
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sparkletarte
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I also don't understand why people watch the debates- I mean, don't you just know who you are voting for? I guess there are lots of undecideds but...I don't know...there's only two (I guess three) choices, and people seem pretty solid on either Bush or not-Bush.
Why doesn't Nader get to be in the debates?
Why doesn't Nader get to be in the debates?
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calicowboy925
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Bush had been Governor of Texas. Unlike Edwards, Bush was there for his job as Governor. When you vote for a candidate, you also implicitly vote for the party and the candidates cronies. With the Bush administration you get many, many years of expertise and experience...With the Dems you get LAWYERS, Tax and spend entitlement loving lefties like Rob Reiner, Micheal Moore and a FRESHMAN senator with no experience other than as a personal injury atty. (the WORST type of lawyer) He has not even been at his senate sessions to vote on the issues he was elected to take part in! Both Kerry and Edwards are whining sissies, pointing fingers with no real answers and a monday morning quarterback's 20/20 vision. Look at Kerry's senate voting record, every vote was to raise taxes, he is as cheesy as his lame fake tan and his look down her nose wanna be Marie Antoinette wife! To quote Gulliver..."It'll Never Work"
PS I did like Edwards line in Deliverance "Aintree? City boy you musta made a wrong turn somewhere's, this river don't flow no-where's near Aintree". I can hear the banjo's now.............
PS I did like Edwards line in Deliverance "Aintree? City boy you musta made a wrong turn somewhere's, this river don't flow no-where's near Aintree". I can hear the banjo's now.............
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calicowboy925
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Simply Joel
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hee hee heecalicowboy925 wrote:Bush had been Governor of Texas. Unlike Edwards, Bush was there for his job as Governor. When you vote for a candidate, you also implicitly vote for the party and the candidates cronies. With the Bush administration you get many, many years of expertise and experience...With the Dems you get LAWYERS, Tax and spend entitlement loving lefties like Rob Reiner, Micheal Moore and a FRESHMAN senator with no experience other than as a personal injury atty. (the WORST type of lawyer) He has not even been at his senate sessions to vote on the issues he was elected to take part in! Both Kerry and Edwards are whining sissies, pointing fingers with no real answers and a monday morning quarterback's 20/20 vision. Look at Kerry's senate voting record, every vote was to raise taxes, he is as cheesy as his lame fake tan and his look down her nose wanna be Marie Antoinette wife! To quote Gulliver..."It'll Never Work"
PS I did like Edwards line in Deliverance "Aintree? City boy you musta made a wrong turn somewhere's, this river don't flow no-where's near Aintree". I can hear the banjo's now.............
i don't agree with the verbs and nouns used above, yet i do understand from where this perspective hails from...
what i do find as well is the above rant is simpy a converse opinion of the same nature i read from all the left of center thinkers found herein... so it and other rants like it don't sway me or my opinion in the least... but i am not sure that was their/your intent anyway.
you ought to read up on what is involved in being governor of Texas. 1st, it is the number 2 position. 2nd, the Texas legislature does not even convene every year. Bush's tenure as Texas governor does not qualify him in the slightest to being the man in charge of the nation.Bush had been Governor of Texas. Unlike Edwards, Bush was there for his job as Governor
so, that girl I told you about who had her digestive track ripped out due to manufacturer negligence does not deserve representation? I got news for ya, there are plenty of lawyers on both sides of the aislepersonal injury atty. (the WORST type of lawyer)
how many days has bush spent on vacation in crawford? How many days has cheney spent at 'an undisclosed location'?He has not even been at his senate sessions to vote on the issues he was elected to take part in!
that's a useless ad hominem attack but what the hell, I'll bite. Where were Bush and Cheney during the vietnam war? Refresh my memory.Both Kerry and Edwards are whining sissies,
I hope you don't really believe such a statement. If so, might I suggest you examine the congressional record?Look at Kerry's senate voting record, every vote was to raise taxes
there is that word again. So, once again I am going to have to point out that Bush is outspending his Democratic predecessor by quite a margin.spend
irrelevant, baseless, juvenile at besthe is as cheesy as his lame fake tan and his look down her nose wanna be Marie Antoinette wife!
it's that fact vs fiction thing the Bush lovers have such an issue withI did like Edwards line in Deliverance
call me baby