Open letter to Allanon and the Stopburningman.com people

[Observer]

fien i will answer then in a way

we really dont even talk about the actual life on the pliya. I like to focus on a few items that we have outlind on our website.
Peopel here have said to focus on a few things and do that well. I think we have and I will continue to do so.

where did we talk about life on the pliya being dmaaged? we have talked about material dumped on the pliya but did not talk about life being damaged
i love it when people say things i have not

sigh

So, what you're saying is that while you are alleging that Burning Man is damaging the Playa ecosystem, you haven't claimed that living things on the Playa have been harmed?

Err, Rex ... without living things, there is no ecosystem. Hurting one is the same as hurting the other. You would seem to be left in a contradiction. One which Ed (aka Obscurotron) doesn't seem to wish to join you in, as we see in message 377 on the "stopburningman" list at Yahoogroups. Here's what Ed writes, as one can see by joining that list and looking through the archives:

Just FYI, I have moderator powers or whatever they may be, but I've
certainly not used them (except to get rid of actual spammers). I really
don't have anything to say as I'm not actively involved in this effort.
My reasons were given in my previous reply, but if it is unclear, let me
restate it - BM participants, by what appears to be a 4-to-1 ratio, want
to hear *nothing* that might disparage, contradict or otherwise dispute
their perceived way of life and Larry. I'd be better off trying to drain
oceans with a straw.

Therefore, I'm not sure what you want of me. Answers? To what? Your
observations of the playa are inherently unreliable. The absence of plant
or animal life on the playa itself does not mean it is not part of an
ecosystem. In fact, the very material of the playa itself coupled with
the weather cycles, makes the playa a giant sponge with an upward
hydraulic gradient. That means water goes upwards, not downards. That
means whatever it absorbs in the wet season is transpired and otherwise
released upwards. This supports plant life on the edges, for example.

The playa serpents are a feature whose size and range is unprecedented in
this particular wester playa. Contrary to BLM assertions, there is no
evidence that they have ever been this large or this widespread.
Curiously they began to show up in larger numbers the seasons after BM
began large scale use of the playa. My only contention is that more
search is warranted.

Water - Frog Pond is more than a 'hole' in the ground. There used to be
thousands of square feet of marsh, with only one proper 'soaking'
spring/hole. Those marshes were excavated and *turned into* pits for the
water trucks to pull water from. Go look now - it's an ugly place
compared to what it was 5 years ago. Also of note - BM stopped using that
water, though they allegedly signed a long term (I think the figure was 5
years) lease. I can't help but wonder why. It was a source of water, and
was amply exploited in 2002. Why not now? That's not an implication -
I'm actually curious. The Iraqi Informa...er....Maid Marion hasn't
replied to that inquiry, so it's not for want of asking.

Migratory birds - the playa actually is a rest stop for birds. You'd have
to watch regularly, but I've seen birds on the playa in early spring
(April-ish) in the wet spots. With 10 power binoculars and the distance
involved, it was not possible for me to find out their species, not is the
playa conducive to driving with all that mud.

There are also other playa microoganisms, including a type of shrimp and
bacterial crusts (basically
bacterial colonies that inhabit in the first few mm of soil and create a
puffy/crusty surface. While at the USGS office in Menlo Park a month ago
they had a nice glossy flier/circular about just this. It was good
reading - not sure if it exists in an online form.

Dripping oil, grease and other automotive fluids - impact is impact.
Whether it's a cup or 50 gallons worth. The more, the worse. And with a
record attendance this year, I would be curious to know the statistics of
the vehicle inspections or admonitions given to participants to guard
against spills, use catch pans, etc. Perhaps things were better this year
in that regard. Don't know. It'll take time before there is sufficient
information on this, either via a FOIA or other sources.

And for the record, it's high time I did another transect walk anyway.
But I suspect that, like in May 2002, I'll find more rebar and tent
stakes. Nasty stuff. Certainly not good.

And once again, certainly not corroborated. That certainly would sound like a claim that wildlife is being harmed, despite to your assertion to the contrary, Rex. You folks would seem to be having difficulty keeping your story straight, which would raise questions about your honesty in the minds of many. And yet you ask us to take the results of these alleged "transect walks", unwitnessed by any independent third party, on faith. Do you see why that might be a source of difficulty, Rex?

[allanon2]

fien i will answer then in a way

we really dont even talk about the actual life on the pliya. I like to focus on a few items that we have outlind on our website.
Peopel here have said to focus on a few things and do that well. I think we have and I will continue to do so.

where did we talk about life on the pliya being dmaaged? we have talked about material dumped on the pliya but did not talk about life being damaged
i love it when people say things i have not

sigh

So, what you're saying is that while you are alleging that Burning Man is damaging the Playa ecosystem, you haven't claimed that living things on the Playa have been harmed?

Err, Rex ... without living things, there is no ecosystem. Hurting one is the same as hurting the other. You would seem to be left in a contradiction. One which Ed (aka Obscurotron) doesn't seem to wish to join you in, as we see in message 377 on the "stopburningman" list at Yahoogroups. Here's what Ed writes, as one can see by joining that list and looking through the archives:

Just FYI, I have moderator powers or whatever they may be, but I've
certainly not used them (except to get rid of actual spammers). I really
don't have anything to say as I'm not actively involved in this effort.
My reasons were given in my previous reply, but if it is unclear, let me
restate it - BM participants, by what appears to be a 4-to-1 ratio, want
to hear *nothing* that might disparage, contradict or otherwise dispute
their perceived way of life and Larry. I'd be better off trying to drain
oceans with a straw.

Therefore, I'm not sure what you want of me. Answers? To what? Your
observations of the playa are inherently unreliable. The absence of plant
or animal life on the playa itself does not mean it is not part of an
ecosystem. In fact, the very material of the playa itself coupled with
the weather cycles, makes the playa a giant sponge with an upward
hydraulic gradient. That means water goes upwards, not downards. That
means whatever it absorbs in the wet season is transpired and otherwise
released upwards. This supports plant life on the edges, for example.

The playa serpents are a feature whose size and range is unprecedented in
this particular wester playa. Contrary to BLM assertions, there is no
evidence that they have ever been this large or this widespread.
Curiously they began to show up in larger numbers the seasons after BM
began large scale use of the playa. My only contention is that more
search is warranted.

Water - Frog Pond is more than a 'hole' in the ground. There used to be
thousands of square feet of marsh, with only one proper 'soaking'
spring/hole. Those marshes were excavated and *turned into* pits for the
water trucks to pull water from. Go look now - it's an ugly place
compared to what it was 5 years ago. Also of note - BM stopped using that
water, though they allegedly signed a long term (I think the figure was 5
years) lease. I can't help but wonder why. It was a source of water, and
was amply exploited in 2002. Why not now? That's not an implication -
I'm actually curious. The Iraqi Informa...er....Maid Marion hasn't
replied to that inquiry, so it's not for want of asking.

Migratory birds - the playa actually is a rest stop for birds. You'd have
to watch regularly, but I've seen birds on the playa in early spring
(April-ish) in the wet spots. With 10 power binoculars and the distance
involved, it was not possible for me to find out their species, not is the
playa conducive to driving with all that mud.

There are also other playa microoganisms, including a type of shrimp and
bacterial crusts (basically
bacterial colonies that inhabit in the first few mm of soil and create a
puffy/crusty surface. While at the USGS office in Menlo Park a month ago
they had a nice glossy flier/circular about just this. It was good
reading - not sure if it exists in an online form.

Dripping oil, grease and other automotive fluids - impact is impact.
Whether it's a cup or 50 gallons worth. The more, the worse. And with a
record attendance this year, I would be curious to know the statistics of
the vehicle inspections or admonitions given to participants to guard
against spills, use catch pans, etc. Perhaps things were better this year
in that regard. Don't know. It'll take time before there is sufficient
information on this, either via a FOIA or other sources.

And for the record, it's high time I did another transect walk anyway.
But I suspect that, like in May 2002, I'll find more rebar and tent
stakes. Nasty stuff. Certainly not good.

And once again, certainly not corroborated. That certainly would sound like a claim that wildlife is being harmed, despite to your assertion to the contrary, Rex. You folks would seem to be having difficulty keeping your story straight, which would raise questions about your honesty in the minds of many. And yet you ask us to take the results of these alleged "transect walks", unwitnessed by any independent third party, on faith. Do you see why that might be a source of difficulty, Rex?

allged transects walks umm BLM and BMORG has done them they are required to do them as part of their permit process

they do them in the fall and in the spring
ed and I have beeen involved in the transect walks
BLM records what si found (yet they dotn write down all the things We have proff of that)

so no they are not alleged they did occur and they are on public record.
Just do a FOIA with the winemucca BLM office and you will see their data.
Some people at BLM dont think they transect walks are done good enough as suggested by Bilbo the guy in chrage of the wiemucca office before dave cooper.

Bilbo wanted 1.10 acre circles used and performned by BLM employees gatherign everythign fofudn and not just whatever peopel pick up
ttyl
rex

[Badger]

Back off of the meds I see.

[Observer]

allged transects walks umm BLM and BMORG has done them they are required to do them as part of their permit process

they do them in the fall and in the spring
ed and I have beeen involved in the transect walks
BLM records what si found (yet they dotn write down all the things We have proff of that)

so no they are not alleged they did occur and they are on public record.
Just do a FOIA with the winemucca BLM office and you will see their data.
Some people at BLM dont think they transect walks are done good enough as suggested by Bilbo the guy in chrage of the wiemucca office before dave cooper.

Bilbo wanted 1.10 acre circles used and performned by BLM employees gatherign everythign fofudn and not just whatever peopel pick up
ttyl
rex

Uh, huh.

Rex, the "transect walks" alleged on your group's site, for those who haven't been to it, were supposedly straight line walks taken by some of your friends, along which they (allegedly) noted and recorded the condition of the ground along the way. My objection has been that you've been asking the rest of us to take those results on faith, and your response to this has been, in effect, to say "well, we asserted this really strongly and put it on a website". This is what you think corroboration is?

Aside from that, I have to say that I find it very difficult to believe your friend Ed when he claims to have seen migratory birds on the Playa, for reasons that should be familiar to anybody who has stepped on the Playa when it is wet: Playa mud. Wet, sticky, gloppy stuff that one practically needs a putty knife to get off. Picture a bird large enough to have been seen miles off, as Ed claimed to have seen that bird, landing in the shallow water I saw in that photo. No need to take this on faith: the state of Nevada reports on the condition of the Playa during the winter, and a picture search for "Black Rock Desert" will turn up a picture of a (barely) inundated playa. The bird lands, and gets that glop all over his feathers. Picture what this is going to do to his ability to fly. How's he going to get that wet, sticky, heavy glop off of himself?

And he's going to risk his ability to move for a meager feast of 1/2 long fairy shrimp? I would be most surprised, and would have to term this a remarkable claim, calling for remarkable evidence. Once again, you folks ask us to just take your word for it, and still have no answer to the basic question "if this is true, then why not get a third party in to verify this". You expect the rest of us to either believe that you can't find a party interested in a potential environmental issue in the Bay Area, or forget that you don't seem to be bothering?

Kind of fishy.

Looking through Ed's post and your site a little more, I see you guys claiming that you aren't opposed to Burning Man happening, but let's take a good look at what you consider to be an "ecosystem" in need of protecting, something that rules against Burning Man being held on the Playa: the presence of bacteria. Rex, one could go into the middle of Antarctica, and one would still find bacteria. There is no place on Earth that would be considered acceptable under such criteria, so is it not a little disingenuous to set such standards, and pretend not to be opposed to the holding of Burning Man?

Further, one apparently wouldn't even need to be on top of those ubiquitous bacteria for you people to object. Ed makes reference to the dangers of having an impact on the ill-defined "edge" of an area, going so far as to imply that a single slightly damaged car leaking oil will do grave damage to wildlife tens of miles away. "Impact is impact" is how he puts it - but does that make sense? Having somebody breath cigarette smoke on one and being buried under a lava flow will both impact on one's health, but common sense should tell one that there's more than a slight difference in the degree of impact each will have.

Nature is not benign. Toxins enter the environment in a variety of ways, and have as long as there has been a biosphere. The very process that replenishes the atmosphere, without which the earth would be as dead as Mars - vulcanism - spews poison by the ton. Oil, itself, was discovered because some of it leaked to the surface, naturally. So what are these fragile, hothouse creatures that can not endure unless they are provided with an absolutely pristine environment, of the sort that nature itself could not provide anywhere? If "impact is impact" was a sensible remark, then protecting the environment would be a futile effort, because natural phenomena themselves have an impact. The real question, in the case of both manmade and natural phenomena, is how much. Given how diluted a few cups of oil will be, after being spread out over even a ten mile radius, the answer would seem to me to be "not much at all".

If you have an argument to the contrary that goes beyond trying to fib about what has already been said and revisionist definitions of the concept of environmental damage, could we please hear them, now? Your side has had days to do so, and all I've been seeing out of it to date has been evasiveness in a variety of forms. At some point, Rex, if you're not going to do better than this, then even a reasonable and open minded audience will conclude that you're a crank, and stop listening. That's not name calling, it's simply a fact - being open minded does not mean that one has to be eternally indecisive, especially when a decision is being so well backed up by what one is seeing. If you'd like some of us to make another one, then please lose the bluster and start making a real case.

And do it today, please. Otherwise, next topic.

[Tancorix]

Observer, I've read some good replies / counterarguments to the Stop BM agenda. Your reply is the best yet.

I'm amazed at how tenacious this group is. They've been discredited 50X over, yet they're still here trying to stir things up.

I wish their tenaciousness would be applied towards stopping Sempra Energy's coal belching, water resource sucking behemoth of a fine particulate belching, not even benefitting Nevada despite sucking up it's resources power plant which would really benefit the playa, instead of expending time and energy trying to mask a stealth attack on BM...and using BM's own resources to do it.

[allanon2]

Aside from that, I have to say that I find it very difficult to believe your friend Ed when he claims to have seen migratory birds on the Playa, for reasons that should be familiar to anybody who has stepped on the Playa when it is wet: Playa mud. Wet, sticky, gloppy stuff that one practically needs a putty knife to get off. Picture a bird large enough to have been seen miles off, as Ed claimed to have seen that bird, landing in the shallow water I saw in that photo. No need to take this on faith: the state of Nevada reports on the condition of the Playa during the winter, and a picture search for "Black Rock Desert" will turn up a picture of a (barely) inundated playa. The bird lands, and gets that glop all over his feathers. Picture what this is going to do to his ability to fly. How's he going to get that wet, sticky, heavy glop off of himself?

And he's going to risk his ability to move for a meager feast of 1/2 long fairy shrimp? I would be most surprised, and would have to term this a remarkable claim, calling for remarkable evidence. Once again, you folks ask us to just take your word for it, and still have no answer to the basic question "if this is true, then why not get a third party in to verify this". You expect the rest of us to either believe that you can't find a party interested in a potential environmental issue in the Bay Area, or forget that you don't seem to be bothering?


http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=1181
these are your guys talkign about birds
and you also have a few other threads talkign about birds
enjoy eating your acquastations

[unjonharley]

Allanon@ went on & on so<snip>

You twit, Most of the bird sightings were birds that hop a ride across country. In years past I saw a happless bird i a wind storm. It was being driven at high speed across the playa. Some of us saw a lot of insects this year. Again this is not the norm. The swollow I spoke of, was out of place too. The colsest barn must have been miles away. Still he come out to the playa in the evening to eat the insects that were uncommon this year. Eveything was working right down the food chain. No harm, no foul.

[Observer]

Observer, I've read some good replies / counterarguments to the Stop BM agenda. Your reply is the best yet.

Thanks.

I'm amazed at how tenacious this group is. They've been discredited 50X over, yet they're still here trying to stir things up.

Annoying, isn't it?

I wish their tenaciousness would be applied towards stopping Sempra Energy's coal belching, water resource sucking behemoth of a fine particulate belching, not even benefitting Nevada despite sucking up it's resources power plant which would really benefit the playa,

Agreed, there is a world of better things that they could be doing with their time.

instead of expending time and energy trying to mask a stealth attack on BM...and using BM's own resources to do it.

Brings to mind the old cliche about finding out that your girlfriend is sleeping with somebody else, and that you're going to have to pay the motel bill.

[Observer]

Allanon@ went on & on so<snip>

You twit, Most of the bird sightings were birds that hop a ride across country. In years past I saw a happless bird i a wind storm. It was being driven at high speed across the playa.

Thank you. Exactly. By Allanon/Rex's logic, we would have to conclude that ship rats had a global distribution before the first wooden ships were built, because they do now. Humans have been inadvertantly seeding the planet with hitchhiking species for millenia, and nature has been doing much the same in its own way for billions of years. (eg. much of the bird and reptile population of the Galapagos; iguanas coming in on driftwood, and seeding the islands with species that could not have reached the island except by a freak accident).

There is a world of difference between being brought somewhere or blown somewhere by accident, and migrating through there. There's also a world of difference between having a handful of strays and finding an established ecosystem - introduced species don't necessarily stick around.

[Observer]

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=1181
these are your guys talkign about birds
and you also have a few other threads talkign about birds
enjoy eating your acquastations

So, now you ARE saying that there are animals being harmed on the Playa? I have to ask, because just a few posts back you were denying that your side had ever made that claim, and were bitterly protesting my alleged misrepresentation of your side's position. So, which is it? Yes or no, are you folks making that claim?

As for those bird sightings, what was the most striking weather feature on the Playa this year, Rex? How about the wind? I heard much about structures being knocked down. Obviously, we're not talking about a light breeze. Delta V, Rex: ground velocity equals wind velocity plus velocity relative to the air the bird is flying through, at a given moment. The birds got blown off course. As others have pointed out, these appearances were quite remarkable, enough so for them to be worth posting about.

And yet you cite these posts in support of a claim that bird migration is a regular feature on the Playa. I think that's a little disingenuous. Oh, and Rex - please learn to use the "quote" function. I'm getting more than a little tired of seeing my text ending up in the body of your posts.

[calsur]

And to burst another allanon2 bubble, the thread –

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=1181

is asking the question about bird sightings during Burning Man.

In short, not during bird migrations. My post to this thread was about a bird I saw on September 5th. What birds are migrating then?

Just my two cents.

[Isotopia]

Rex Asshat's command of facts/truth is pretty much equivalent to his command of spelling.

His point - his case - was made long ago.

BTW, tossing a transect as an evaluative tool whether it be for population or trash distribution analysis is base on randomness. Though one defines the area or boundary to be studied one does NOT decide where within the area to observe/evaluate. That's defined by randon casting (or drawing) of coordinates (or area). The use of this method insures the evaluation is not affected by bias.