NV Serving Alcohol Law & Camps Gifting Drinks

[BeachBum]

BMOrg, ..................................... cc: Burner community

Thank you for all that you do to help this wonderful event on the playa occur each year!

But, please change the wording of your Bars on the Playa policy communications. imho, you've been mis-quoting the law on this subject since at least 2005.

imho, there are three errors in your communications:
1) Minors: The law does NOT say "If a minor loiters in a place where alcoholic beverages are CONSUMED". The law makes it illegal for minors to be in an establishment where alcoholic beverages are SOLD, the law does not say CONSUMED in this manner. Theme camps do not SELL alcohol, they GIFT it.

2) Please add the word "KNOWINGLY" into "It is a misdemeanor to KNOWINGLY serve alcoholic beverages to anyone under 21 years old in Nevada". You got it right later in the paragraph though.

3) Your Bars on the Playa policy communications incorrectly state: "None of this is new and not terribly different from most other state laws." It IS terribly different, most states, such as CA do not have the word "knowingly" in their laws. They have "strict liability", i.e., if you give alcohol to a minor, you're guilty. NV, does not have strict liability on this, they are supposedly not allowed to trick people into gifting alcohol, though this has been widely violated on the playa.

Please update your policy and communications on this subject so we may better protect ourselves. Some of the LEOs read your communications, and may believe what you, imho, incorrectly say is actually the law. Also, this lets people know, if they are incorrectly cited, that they may have solid grounds for fighting the citation, providing the Pershing County courts interpret this law as a reasonable person would.

Also, so we know what to be on the lookout for, can you please let us know what law enforcement actions of questionable ethics have been reported to you or known by you on this subject, and by which law enforcement agencies? As well as, if a law enforcement agency chooses to have a different interpretation of the law other than what is clearly written in the law, please let us know this information also, so we can better protect ourselves from these actions. Please help us.

Thanks!

(cites and details in the following post)

(Note to mod: Yes, I sent this info in during the post-burn comment period last year, where comments made during this period were put into a binder for review at the org retreat late last year. I realize it's useless to make this comment on the org's bulletin board here, but members of the org do read this stuff, and get this stuff forwarded to them. Please let a reasonable discussion happen on this subject, especially by people who are more knowledgeable on this subject than me, so people may know what the law actually states, even if enforcement may not match the actual written law. This knowledge may let people who are incorrectly cited know that there may be valid reasons upon which an incorrect citation may be fought. Knowledge doesn't hurt. Thank you in advance.)

[BeachBum]

Cites and details on NV Serving Alcohol Law & Camps Gifting Drinks:

1) The wording of Bars on the Playa communications still, imho, mis-quote the law, such as in the email on this subject recently sent over the placement newsletter. One may access that newsletter through their camp lead or through a recent FB group post.

2) Bars on the Playa communication from Harley in 2005, showing the same, imho, mis-quotes of the law have been repeated for many years: http://bm.tribe.net/m/thread/e63a4860-4 ... 715292227c

3) NV law statute NRS 202.030 - http://law.justia.com/codes/nevada/2011 ... te-202.030
- Minor loitering in place where alcoholic beverages SOLD (emphasis added).
Any person under 21 years of age who shall loiter or remain on the premises of any saloon where spirituous, malt or fermented liquors or wines are SOLD (emphasis added) ...

4) NV law statute NRS 202.060 - http://law.justia.com/codes/nevada/2011 ... te-202.060
- Saloonkeeper allowing minor to remain in establishment.
Any proprietor, keeper or manager of a saloon or resort where spirituous, malt or fermented liquors or wines are SOLD (emphasis added), who shall, KNOWINGLY (emphasis added), allow or permit any person under the age of 21 years to remain therein ...

5) NV law statute NRS 202.055 - http://law.justia.com/codes/nevada/2011 ... te-202.055
- Sale or furnishing of alcoholic beverage to minor; aiding minor to purchase or procure alcoholic beverage; policy to prevent minor from obtaining alcoholic beverage through use of Internet.
1. Every person who KNOWINGLY (emphasis added):
(a) Sells, gives or otherwise furnishes an alcoholic beverage to any person under 21 years of age;
(b) Leaves or deposits any alcoholic beverage in any place with the INTENT (emphasis added) that it will be procured by any person under 21 years of age; or ...

6) The 2001 NV Supreme Court decision (precedent?) instructing the PCSD and the Pershing County courts to respect the word "knowingly" in the law: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/nv-supreme-c ... 05100.html

Thanks. And, thanks for all you do to make the event on the playa so awesome!

[BeachBum]

1) Also, just so people don't get the wrong understanding of the word "knowingly". "Knowingly" does not mean "You know":
http://law.justia.com/codes/nevada/2011 ... te-193.017

The NV definition of the word knowingly: NRS 193.017 - Knowingly defined.
Knowingly imports a knowledge that the facts exist which constitute the act or omission of a crime, and does not require knowledge of its unlawfulness. Knowledge of any particular fact may be inferred from the knowledge of such other facts as should put an ordinarily prudent person upon inquiry.

As the Bars on the Playa communications, imho, correctly state, "In 2001 the Nevada State Supreme Court limited the application of NRS 202.055 to only servers who had actual or constructive knowledge that the person seeking the alcohol was under 21. This means that you must card someone who looks underage. Conversely, if someone looks of age you are not required to card him or her."

The 2001 NV Supreme Court decision, linked in the previous post, has a long discussion about the word "knowingly".

2) It's still a very, very good idea to post a "No Minors Allowed - No Minors Served" sign to discourage minors from committing a misdemeanor by requesting or consuming alcohol at your bar. And, also to keep minors away from your bar area. It's just that, if you're cited for a minor being in an area of a theme camp where alcohol is served or consumed, imho, you have solid grounds for fighting the citation. What do people who have a better understanding of the law than I do think?

[BeachBum]

Wow! I just found a great discussion from 'z s' (he may comment if he wishes) from 2009 on the realities and specifics of how to very effectively challenge a bogus citation on this subject. 'Z S', THANKS FOR THE INFO, YOU'RE GREAT FOR DOING SO!!!!!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From his posts about his very bogus citation:

I was waiting to post this until my trial date passed as did not want to take any chances on upsetting any higher powers.About a month ago I wrote to <detail withheld 2013 - friend of a friend> and outlined what I felt were some aspects of my case. Here is my letter and reply:(names withheld)

(from z s)

Hello ,We were in touch earlier about a citation I received for "under age drinking". You referred me to <detail withheld 2013>. He wanted $750 for his services and after not returning any phone calls I lost confidence in him. So I took on the project myself. Bottom line was my case was dismissed and I am pleased with that and thank Lake Township for their consideration. However there are some aspects of this case that lead me to believe that this was nothing more than a premeditated cash grab by Pershing County and not in line with anything that BM signed on for. I do not believe the county had any intention of actually following through on any citations that were contested in the least. They wrote them out hoping for a hefty check from those who due to geography or other reasons could not fight them. For example:

Why is "bail" $1,120 when the fine is $500?

After I pled "not guilty" (note 2013: he did this via fax, not through a trip to Pershing County) I asked for all evidence against me to be sent to my address.This "discovery" and what I got consisted of nothing but a Xerox copy of my original citation.This is after the officer who issued the citation insisted to me the whole incident was"recorded". Seems to me they had nothing and were bluffing.

A bit of legwork by myself and a call from a lawyer friend was all it took to get the case dismissed which again leaves you to believe this was a less than honorable operation from the get go.

I appreciate your help in the original situation. thanks

(from <detail withheld 2013>)

Thank you so much for taking the time to give me a followup about your case. I'm so glad you were able to get it dismissed!

I'm not happy that the lawyer wasn't so prompt in contacting you. I will definitely keep your feedback in mind the next time I make a referral.

I'm deeply troubled by Pershing County's behavior. Doing the sting and writing the tickets was bad enough, but not having any intention of even taking their part seriously is pretty low. We have seen that kind of behavior from BLM, but this year was the first time that Pershing started writing bogus tickets as revenue generators.

Kudos to you for taking action on your own behalf to get it dismissed. Don't worry I won't mention your name. But, I would like to share your experience with other burners so that they feel empowered to challenge citations also. Please let me know if that would be okay. <detail withheld 2013> best regards.....

So hopefully this will serve as a booster shot of courage to anyone unlucky enough to be involved in this mess next year. Again thanks for all the feedback from E-playans. Our camp WILL be back next year with a lesson well learned and our "bar"retired forever.

-------------------------------------------------------------
His update a year later:

I thought re-opening this thread for 2011 event may prove helpful to those unlucky few who experienced what our camp did last year.
This year we had no problems. We plastered the Pershing County dismissal papers on our bar and pointed to them when people needed to know why.
However I am sure,as a potential "repeat offender", we were probably targeted.Every suspicious encounter took place in the afternoon. I mean how would anyone at that time ever know this empty and quiet tent had beer to give out?
One instance in particular stands out.A youngish couple strolled in Wed. and struck up a conversation with a French camper of ours.I was lucky to turn around just as he was getting ready to hand them a beer.Instincts now finely tuned after last years experience I asked if they showed him ID.They had not.The guy protested claiming"they had just got there and my girlfriend is real nervous and needs a beer". I then asked if they were 21 and without another word they left.

[BeachBum]

I hope this polite open letter was cool. This is an issue that has effected our event and our culture, causing people who are only trying to gift fun times to others on the playa to be unnecessarily wary, and causing some to not be as open and friendly and as welcoming as they may desire to be. As the original post said, I've previously gone through the proper channel to request a change to the errors in the standard "Bars on the Playa" communications. This is just a very polite request to update those communications to match the actual law. And, well, ePlaya is an internet discussion board to discuss items and issues relating to the wonderful event on the playa that we all know and love. I believe it's far better to talk about an issue like this on ePlaya, rather than on other, uncontrolled internet sites.

Ideally, the response to this request would be that word would be passed that, yeah, you got a point, we'll be updating our standard "Bars on the Playa" communications. And, the response from the law enforcement organization(s) that is(are) concerned about this issue, is that they'll change their enforcement to be in a more "Protect and Serve" community based policing manner, rather than in a tricky "gotcha - ha ha - we can interpret this law however unreasonably we want" manner. Law enforcement organization(s) could easily gain respect on this issue and in the community by having a uniformed officer or two go around, politely talking to camps that gift drinks, informing them of the law, requesting no-under-21 signage to be put up, but that enforcement would be done with a specific camp if there were obvious or re-occurring problem with that camp. And, that enforcement would only be in proportion to the issue, so few 18 to 20 year olds are on the playa due to school schedules and the expense anyways. Absolutely nothing is stopping a response such as this from being made, it's their decision.

Thanks, and have a great 4th!

Comments on the issue?

[trilobyte]

You appear to have mistaken ePlaya for some sort of Burning Man complaints or customer service department. If you have an issue with information posted on a page on Burning Man's web site, you should contact the webmaster via the link at the bottom of that page. If you've got an issue with information shared through an email coming from a department or some other group within Burning Man, you should check the bottom of that communication for information regarding replying or contacting the sender. If you're unable to find such info, you may care to send an email to [email protected] with a short summary of who you're trying to reach, and the helpful people who man that address will hopefully be able to put you in touch with the correct individual(s).

[BBadger]

Muslims have a saying: "trust in Allah, but tie up your camel."

It means that while you should have faith that you're protected (by higher forces, gods, laws, etc.), you should also take matters into your own hands to ensure you're protected. After all, you don't want a "where is your god now?" moment when you're given a citation that you have to fight in the court of some back-water town in Nevada. It's much easier and cheaper to just ask for ID.

Sure, maybe the laws use the words "knowingly" but that's not going to protect you when you get issued a citation for serving an undercover cop who you didn't check ID. In fact, it could and should be argued that you did "knowingly" serve alcohol to a minor if you were serving someone who was not "beyond doubt" a person above age 21. It's not like they're sending undercover children with Progeria syndrome, which would definitely be entrapment. You need to show due diligence in preventing underage drinking, and neglecting that is where most of the citations come from, and where the undercovers will get you.

As for the BMOrg I'm-not-a-lawyer advice on their site, it's better to err on the side of safety rather than throw yourself at the mercy of a judge's interpretation of what "knowingly" means. It should also be readily apparent that simply having a bar does not preclude underage people from visiting, so long as they don't drink alcohol. It's not like camps need alcoholic beverage zone borders the way street cafés in cities do. It should, however, be evident that the bar is being watched and that underage persons can't just go serve themselves -- that would be another sign of lack of due diligence.

[LowePro]

This post IS for eplaya, looking for feedback from Burners,

My camp is hosting a bar for the first time; we'll put up a 21+ sign and ask for ID,
BUT, are most people carrying ID out there? I don't remember if I saw people get carded last year (but I'm 34 and don't pay attention to carding much)

I assume many people aren't carrying ID. True?False? If someone's not carrying ID, is it enough if I ask them: "Are you 21? Are you a cop?"
What have people gotten busted for? Thanks,
AR.

[thelionking]

This post IS for eplaya, looking for feedback from Burners,

My camp is hosting a bar for the first time; we'll put up a 21+ sign and ask for ID,
BUT, are most people carrying ID out there? I don't remember if I saw people get carded last year (but I'm 34 and don't pay attention to carding much)

I assume many people aren't carrying ID. True?False? If someone's not carrying ID, is it enough if I ask them: "Are you 21? Are you a cop?"
What have people gotten busted for? Thanks,
AR.

I worked the entrance several times when our camp was serving alcohol. Most people who are questionable in age carried either their IDs or a copy of their ID. Those that didn't were mostly understanding and either returned with their ID or left and didn't return.

I can't speak to whether it is "enough" to ask them their age if you aren't sure they are older than 21. In those cases, I simply said I was sorry, but I really needed to see their ID. They should understand that there are undercover stings and this is why we ask for ID.

I don't know if any camp was cited last year. I know that our camp was not cited and that was good enough for us.