Hexayurt - 4" tape?

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tffy
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Hexayurt - 4" tape?

Post by tffy » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:29 am

Hey, everyone!

Sooo, I'm making a few of these http://www.johnclarkemills.com/2010/08/ ... -hexayurt/

And the question's come up... can I use 4" bi-tape instead of the 6" tape? For the back-home made seams. I mean... more is better, but at the same time - I wanna save money and as an engineer, sometimes more is NOT better. :D

Thanks!

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Canoe
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Re: Hexayurt - 4" tape?

Post by Canoe » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:38 am

Well, as you're an engineer, why don't you look at how much of the 6" tape will be adhering to the surface once you account for the portion in the middle that's the gap/hinge. Do the same for the 4" tape.
( for example, if I did the math right, assuming a 1.25" gap for some of the joints, 6" tape would have (6 - 1.25)/2 for ~2.4" gripping each panel, 4" would have (4 - 1.25)/2 for ~1.4" gripping each side)
  • What's the percentage reduction in adhesion area?
  • How much less force will 4" tape hold?
  • At what mph will the wind rip your hexayurt apart?
Then, what do you think this year's highest wind speed will be, and then account any buffeting, buffering or channeling from where your hexayurt ends up relative to your neighbouring structures and the wind direction.

The tried & true so far for hexayurts is the 6". There's a number of years and locations within BRC where you'd likely getaway with 4".
Your call.

Lots of people play Hexayurt Roulette on-playa. Entertaining if sometimes noisy for their neighbours, and it's never fun listening to the crying.
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Elderberry
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Re: Hexayurt - 4" tape?

Post by Elderberry » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:14 pm

With 4" tape you will only have 1.5" of tape on each panel. If you're taping on a breezy day on the playa that doesn't give you much room for error, not to mention the adhesion factor as the tape reacts to the sun, wind and dust.

We use 3" tape for anything that is non structural, like inside seams, taping the floor tarp to the walls, attaching windows or window hinges, sealing around the air conditioners, etc.

We use 3" foil tape for edging and minor repairs.
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Canoe
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Re: Hexayurt - 4" tape?

Post by Canoe » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:38 pm

Using duct tape instead of bi-filament tape is another favorite form of Hexayurt Roulette.
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maladroit
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Re: Hexayurt - 4" tape?

Post by maladroit » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:04 pm

It might work if you seal the seam as usual, but then add several 12" tape patches across the seams (make sure the hit the top, bottom, and middle at minimum). However...it's your home for the week. Goodbuyguys still has 6" tape, there's no need to take risks yet.

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BBadger
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Re: Hexayurt - 4" tape?

Post by BBadger » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:09 pm

More is not better for things like glue or heatsink grease where more glue/grease reduces the effectiveness of the bond for its purpose.

In the general case, however, the key to engineering is remembering to build in tolerances into all your specified components -- erring on the side of conservative overcompensation. Underengineering for a problem will cost you more in the long run than if you overcompensated to begin with. In the case of your hex-yurt, what will happen if your analysis is incorrect is that, in the best case you'll just end up using two strips of 4" tape overlapping in place of one 6" strip, in the worst case you won't have a workable structure at all or it'll collapse when you don't expect it to.

Plus, it's only $30/60 yards. Is $0.50/seam really that much?
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maladroit
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Re: Hexayurt - 4" tape?

Post by maladroit » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:11 pm

They'll probably want to use 3/4" board to save money, too...

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Elderberry
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Re: Hexayurt - 4" tape?

Post by Elderberry » Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:07 pm

Canoe wrote:Using duct tape instead of bi-filament tape is another favorite form of Hexayurt Roulette.
That implies that there's a chance that duct tape will hold at all. It won't, so the only bet to be taken is how many hours after the sun rises will it take for the glue to melt and the yurt to fall apart.
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tffy
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Re: Hexayurt - 4" tape?

Post by tffy » Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:51 pm

[quote="Canoe"]The tried & true so far for hexayurts is the 6". There's a number of years and locations within BRC where you'd likely getaway with 4".
Your call.[/quote]

Well, first off, I’ve come across people saying ‘yeah, use 3” – it’s no problem, it’s just super-hard to assemble on the playa.’ Sooo, was just getting more of opinions, I suppose.

Help me define a critical load case for the structure here, whydontcha, if we’re going to do engineer-talk? :) That's the biggest issue - the adhesion limits are just simple math.

Adhesion is given as 91lbs per inch… and as far as I know (kuz strangely enough, I’ve some tape experience) it’s not square inch that they’re talking about, but linear inch. So, that’s ~5.5lb/inch – so for a 4’ long joint (the smallest joint length we’ve got here) – that’s about 265lbs. Oh, and I guess we should account for the fact that we’re taped on both sides. Soooo, 500lbs between the short connections and 1000lbs between wall and roof long ones. Seeeeeems pretty beefy to me. :)

• What's the percentage reduction in adhesion area?
- Some. 50% So what? :) Who’s saying that 6” is the minimum? Most likely it was a guy going… ‘What’s the biggest tape width I can find!?!’
• How much less force will 4" tape hold?
- Since the tape's glue-area isn’t loaded equally – the further away from the end of board, the less load is on the glue in that section – a decrease of that not highly loaded area will reduce force of joint much less than you think. Also, as mentioned… they measure in linear inches…can look it up in detail, if need be.
• At what mph will the wind rip your hexayurt apart?
- Indeed. Good question. This is by a long shot not a back-of-the-envelope calculation.

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Canoe
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Re: Hexayurt - 4" tape?

Post by Canoe » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:38 am

tffy wrote:...Adhesion is given as 91lbs per inch… and as far as I know (kuz strangely enough, I’ve some tape experience) it’s not square inch that they’re talking about, but linear inch. So, that’s ~5.5lb/inch – so for a 4’ long joint...
You're heading the right direction, but you're not quite there. Explanation will follow.

To that end, I've calculated the values (and then the frig'in writeup took four times as long). Then I noticed that I did it using a 1.25" gap. The values will be easy to recalc, but editing the stupid writeup will be a pain.
jkisha wrote:With 4" tape you will only have 1.5" of tape on each panel...
You're using a 1" gap. To make the values I post useful for the greatest number of yurts & people who want to see the numbers, and given how the average hexayurt ends up built, should I be showing the results for a gap of:
  • 1 1/4"
  • 1 1/8"
  • 1"
  • ____"?
I'll be including values for 3" tape too, including when you use 3" tape overlapped when you can't get 6".
May as well get it in one spot.
4.669
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That's one word I regret googling during breakfast.
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Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
.
, but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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Elderberry
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Re: Hexayurt - 4" tape?

Post by Elderberry » Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:06 am

It's an exercise in futility. Who cares, really?
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Canoe
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Re: Hexayurt - 4" tape?

Post by Canoe » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:13 am

I know the end result is
Canoe wrote:The tried & true so far for hexayurts is the 6". There's a number of years and locations within BRC where you'd likely getaway with 4".
Your call.
but the numbers show why.

So, go with your 1" or _____"?
4.669
.
That's one word I regret googling during breakfast.
.
Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
.
, but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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