Are plug and plays brainwashing the new burners?

[tattoogoddess]

So we have been getting quite a few emails over the past few days asking to join our camp and I'm finding and alarming trend. A lot of these emails seem to be new burners who think camps out at the burn are essentially pay to play camps. Tom and I were talking and I think a lot of people new to the burn are seeing these plug and play camps and thinking every one out there that has a camp is doing the same. So this leads me further to think... Plug and plays are fuckinging up burning man more then believed.

What do you think?

Here is just one email-

"You have a new message
via: http://burnon.wix.com/bloodbathandbeyond

Message details:
From:
Email:
Date: 16 July 2013
Subject: I am interessted in joining your Camp

Message:
I was just lucky to get a burning man ticket for this year. I am interessted to join your camp. I am male, 28, Sport Scientist from Cologne. Please allow me some questions: Do I need to bring any extra sleeping facility (tent or van) or will there be a place for me. Is there a chance to share the ride with you guys from SF to black rock city or do I need to find some one else to provide me with a ride? anything else I need to know expect of your 2hours clean up an required help for the meal? Looking forward to hear from you.


Thank you for using Wix.com!"

Sigh

Bring your own tent, find your own ride, we don't have group meals other then 8 of us that are pulling our food together out of the 30+ people we have as of right now.

[some seeing eye]

I can see why you are frustrated!

I encourage virgins to find a camp. Some will have read everything and get it, and some will have not.

The way I explain it is that there are 5-10,000 homeless virgins. There are about 900 placed camps. Maybe <20% are seeking stranger virgins. Each camp is seeking 1-5 virgins, so for a given camp your odds are 1-5 in 5-10,000.

So it takes a little work, networking, regional friend making, Skype, etc.

As to the original question, I don't think PnP camps are brainwashing anyone. Some people are just not paying attention or they are comparing it to other festivals. I do like the idea of doing some preparedness brainwashing in the ticket queue!

[Eric]

I don't think tattoogoddess meant brainwashing in the "forcing their views on you" way, but in the sense that when you look up Burning Man info you find lots of camps seeking people, and lots of those camps have amenities like shared cooking, etc. I think very few offer shelter, but there are newbies who aren't doing the research to discover that. They just see "camp", and assume they're covered.

I don't think it's at epic proportions yet, but as we get bigger and better known in general terms, there seems to be less knowledge about the specifics of what Burning Man is, and what it involves. I don't just see that as a problem of the plug 'n play camps, I see that as a problem with the media in general. Lord knows the Org tries to make it clear enough.

[tattoogoddess]

Oh I don't mind virgins, I would say 75% of our camp is just that. So I welcome them. But the trend of virgins thinking they can pay "dues" and have it all provided is alarming.

[AntiM]

I often take in overseas virgins, as their travel can be arduous. However, when I describe our tiny camp, and we barely make the minimum number of warm bodies... most of them look elsewhere. I've only had a couple inquiries. Last one was a couple French ladies who sounded quite interesting, but they have not gotten back to me. I think we're too small and offer little more than shade, a tent, use of a dry kitchen, and no showers.

[Savannah]

I think I know what you're saying, TattooGoddess. I see a lot of panicky new people who seem to forget that this is Camping. Nothing against RVs or the fun in having nods to civilization (I do like my chilled champagne) but there's no need to have a carbon copy of home life. I stop short of saying "it shouldn't be" because it's not my business how someone truly wants to Burn, but I do wish that people knew that Burning Simply is a totally viable option, and something to be proud of.

Aside from a skill-based or survival-based panic I think there might also be a social, class-based fear. I think (new) people sometimes imagine that if you're not sleeping in an RV or showering twice a day, no one can be bothered with you. That idea makes me sad, because no one really gives a rat's ass where anyone else sleeps. A person is far more likely to get a compliment on an interesting tent than on 1 of 5,000 or so identical, rented RVs.

[FIGJAM]

I think it's just a cultural thing where it's hard for people to get out of their "I'll buy it" box.

If they had more practice at thinking about what they want, then trying to create it from what they have instead of just buying it, the understanding might be better.

[graidawg]

As a foreign burner, i asked exactly those questions - coming from abroad I didn't want to have to find Everything, in a day, in a strange town, in shops i didn't know the name of or where they are.
when I was nominated for BDC&WB i asked Doc pyro what was provided, in terms of shelter, food, etc etc etc. At that point I had not heard of "plug n play" I simply wanted to know if i could avoid the stress of trying to find a tent (you know american tents are radically different from european tents right?) that would stand up to playa conditions. Then make shade for it. get food, water, alcohol and everything else needed for a week camping, let alone in desert (no deserts I am aware of in europe)

so having someone get that stuff for me would make it a hell of a lot easier - plus i wouldn't have to work out how to get rid of it. guess who offered to help me out on that score?

as it turned out my own personal nurse offered me a place and a ride etc, so all i have ever had to do is get booze

[TomServo]

"Brainwashing" probably isn't the best way to put it.

I see them "Misrepresenting" core Burning Man values and Theme Camps in general. They aggressively advertise their camps, with the selling point BEING you don't have to do a thing except show up! I've always accepted, that over seas burners face logistical challenges as well as outrageous travel costs, that North American Burners probably take for granted. I felt that the "International Burner Hostel" was a happy medium (Median?) However, with the increasing numbers of over seas burners and regionals, maybe it's time to encourage regional support groups for attending THIS event? as opposed to trying to justify these fucking Plug & Plays..

[ygmir]

also, consider so many people are very "urban", in that they really don't know or have not experienced, much if any "outdoor" activities such as camping and stuff. But, their "world" is that of "plug and play".......whether computers, games, appliances, cars, etc.
They are not so much being "lazy" as they are coming from a place very different than BRC, alien, really, to the ethos.
Combine that, with googling "Burning Man" and all the plug and play they see.
Pile that on top of what many see as vacations: Club Med, Carnival Cruise, Disneyland..........all inclusive stuff.

Maybe, a little patience, an explanation (maybe even in any promotion done for a camp, letting prospects know ahead what is "provided"), a polite rebuke and help understanding what you, specifically want. Not a lecture about what "Burning Man" is, and "how to do it right".......

[TomServo]

I know "reading" is passé, but you can do it on computers, smart phones, etc.. And, there is PLENTY of readable stuff on this web site, explaining what you need, what to expect, and more importantly, what NOT to do. If I'm gonna shell out a few grand for a vacation, You can bet, I'm gonna read all I can before giving up my hard earned money. These urbanites, are exactly who the fucking Plug & Plays target. MY problem, is NOT with the uninformed folks expecting a resort...but with the bastards who advertise Burning Man as a resort.

If they want to create a luxury, trippy experience at $5000 a head, there are OTHER events for that type of thing.

[lemur]

also, consider so many people are very "urban", in that they really don't know or have not experienced, much if any "outdoor" activities such as camping and stuff. But, their "world" is that of "plug and play".......whether computers, games, appliances, cars, etc.
They are not so much being "lazy" as they are coming from a place very different than BRC, alien, really, to the ethos.
Combine that, with googling "Burning Man" and all the plug and play they see.
Pile that on top of what many see as vacations: Club Med, Carnival Cruise, Disneyland..........all inclusive stuff.

Maybe, a little patience, an explanation (maybe even in any promotion done for a camp, letting prospects know ahead what is "provided"), a polite rebuke and help understanding what you, specifically want. Not a lecture about what "Burning Man" is, and "how to do it right".......

i think you just used a buncha lines to say that the people from the city represent the stereotypical: DUDE.

(no, not from that movie)

but like, as in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance type jimmy stewart Dude... or the Dean Martin in Rio Bravo..kind of Dude

as in a man who is unfamiliar with the ways of the west..


aint nothin much wrong with that kind of guy..

yer right.

it aint about burning man at all.

[Simon of the Playa]

i'm an an urban dude.



Fuck yer Day.



and fuck this thread.

[Captain Goddammit]

I find myself a bit put off by the mentality that you must be "in a camp". It's like just going and setting up your own camp isn't an option.
I get it if you're from overseas, logistics are a nightmare then - but hey, because of that I don't go to any overseas parties.
I don't go when I don't have all my shit together from Seattle, only 750 miles from BRC.

There was never a point even from the start (and I started over a dozen years ago) when I didn't assume I was on my own out there even the years I was in big camps.

Yeah Tattoogoddess I get what you're sayin'.

It's just a festival, a really expensive party. For most of us it's our vacation.
It's not a necessity to go at all. I've got way, way... WAY over my intended budget invested into it already this year, because I've been away since '08, but that's half my point. Until I had my own circumstances where they needed to be to go, I didn't go.
Maybe if you can't provide for yourself in a remote desert, this isn't the vacation for you.

[CornMan]

Taking Graidawg's concern about traveling in consideration, our camp has a very high percentage of Europeans, and they are expected to chime in on our facebook and basecamp pages and help us all work together in building a camp that belongs to all of us. If not enough camp members are contributing ideas and helping with the planning, we start throwing a fit about it. I'll go through the camp list and find the idle members and drag them into our facebook fold. I suspect many of them are intimidated in joining the online conversations of what appears to be a tight knit group of friends, and this might come across to the active members as being standoffish, but a friendly invitation in usually gets at least some of them in the thick of things. It just might be easier to let our camp become a plug and play, but we think it's worth the effort to not let that happen, and the new members really do not want a plug and play either. It takes work on all of our parts.

[ygmir]

agreed Tom........I"m just saying those folks are out there, and lots of 'em.

though I'm not sure I agree with the fact that just because it's in print, they'll read it.......look how many people come on here, asking super obvious, easy to answer questions from food to rules to water needs.........extension cord sizes..........some just don't want to, or won't, do research.

[ygmir]

and no, I was not making a generalized stereotype statement: Note, I said "many people" when referring to urbanites. But I do stand behind the fact, our population in U.S. is growing more "urban" and less connected to "DIY" or "hands on" stuff, "roughing it" as such........
not all, but many.

Jeebus, thin skinned?

[lemur]

"Brainwashing" probably isn't the best way to put it.

I see them "Misrepresenting" core Burning Man values and Theme Camps in general. They aggressively advertise their camps, with the selling point BEING you don't have to do a thing except show up! I've always accepted, that over seas burners face logistical challenges as well as outrageous travel costs, that North American Burners probably take for granted. I felt that the "International Burner Hostel" was a happy medium (Median?) However, with the increasing numbers of over seas burners and regionals, maybe it's time to encourage regional support groups for attending THIS event? as opposed to trying to justify these fucking Plug & Plays..

brainwashing is surely the best way to put it.. but im not sure if its the prospective campers that are the brainwashed ones.


its you!

you bought the whole burning man 'core values' stuff hook line and sinker!

those 10 principles are only there as a way to advertise the whole thing and package it up and ship it out across the world.. ..do they really represent what this thing is to everyone? not really..

they arent rules.

must so much of this shit always end up in "burning man means this.. and this is the core meaning of burning man.. and if you arent doing this then you shouldnt be there"


one might be proud of fending forthemselves out there but theres no real value in it..

not everyone goes to this event to play home maker and relive the white settling of the west.


some people go to enjoy the stuff that doesnt happen in camp!



yeah ok so.... back to brainwashing.

dont let larry and the advertising department brainwash you into the package deal of what burning man is, ..selling you this easily boxed up easily attainable thing (that is, if you arent a dude and you got camping equipment).. its a lot more than the "10 principles" or whatever ethos some folks from san francisco seemed to think it was before they came up with those 10 principles.

its open to the whole world now..

if there is any one thing that is sure about burning man, ..one that isnt some BS rule or ethical line that nobody can cross or question: its that it changes.

perhaps larry should include the idea that it changes into the marketing materials!

[H.G.Crosby]

[lemur]

and no, I was not making a generalized stereotype statement: Note, I said "many people" when referring to urbanites. But I do stand behind the fact, our population in U.S. is growing more "urban" and less connected to "DIY" or "hands on" stuff, "roughing it" as such........
not all, but many.

Jeebus, thin skinned?

i was agreeing with you!

stereotypical isnt an inherentlynegative word..

(i think we got a thread to discuss language stuff like that somewhere!)


yer right, US is growing more urban.. and people who do camp are doing so in areas far closer to civilization ..the type of person who can even complete a weeklong trip 100 miles from the nearest town are dwindling.

[TomServo]

you bought the whole burning man 'core values' stuff hook line and sinker!

You're right! I did! and the values..before they became "10 principles" seemed pretty straight forward. Are you butthurt that you can't conform to seemingly simple ideals?

[lemur]

burning man!

the only place where the BS mission statement is adhered to as if it were gospel.

[CornMan]

brainwashing is surely the best way to put it.. but im not sure if its the prospective campers that are the brainwashed ones.


its you!

you bought the whole burning man 'core values' stuff hook line and sinker!

those 10 principles are only there as a way to advertise the whole thing and package it up and ship it out across the world.. ..do they really represent what this thing is to everyone? not really..

they arent rules.

must so much of this shit always end up in "burning man means this.. and this is the core meaning of burning man.. and if you arent doing this then you shouldnt be there"


one might be proud of fending forthemselves out there but theres no real value in it..

not everyone goes to this event to play home maker and relive the white settling of the west.


some people go to enjoy the stuff that doesnt happen in camp!

Who's going to fill our shoes when the people here now won't even wear them?

[lemur]

i dont care who fills our shoes and what they do with the joint after we leave

its a party in the desert where we have fun with our friends and non friends, its, let me say it: a festival (omg that word is poison to burners)



its not like in going to the event and following some principles we're rearing a child.

[TomServo]

Well, NOW I can finally appreciate what the first timers were bitching about. So Paris Hilton really IS attending this years burn!

[CornMan]

It would totally crack me up if Paris Hilton did attend this year, and really got into the spirit and principles of Burning Man. I don't see why we shouldn't give her the benefit of the doubt when we are so accepting of many already here who openly speak out against the principles of Burning Man.

[TomServo]

Radical Inclusion

[trilobyte]

I'm moving this over to Politics & Philosophy, since I think that's a better fit.

Welcome to the world of theme camp management. You'll be surprised to see some of the requests and messages of interest that you get when you've got open enrollment. It may surprise you to learn that Burning Man is vastly different than most other festivals and events, and many of the uninitiated don't know the first thing about it. Also, from my experience, more people than not don't actually start the process of trying to figure anything out until after they've gotten their ticket (which it sounds like the guy you're skewering has just done).

I don't see anything in that message that indicates the guy has ever been to Burning Man before, let alone camped with a turnkey camp?

You're in your second year, and it's your first year organizing a camp. I don't see how you could possibly be spotting seasonal trends in the self-reliance of new burners. Unless you mean trend as in week to week through the burn season. If that is what you meant, then yeah... that's how it works... pretty much every year. The people who start their planning 6 or more months out are much more resourceful and self-reliant than those who start 6 or less weeks out. If you have no patience for people that don't meet certain minimum standards, your camp should either not be offering open enrollment, or you should be more specific in what you're looking for in a campmate. Your site's 'About' page is under maintenance, there's nothing to really explain who you guys are or what kind of expectations you have or who you're looking for. Right now it looks like you're offering dues-free camping to any takers who are down for a communal meal a day, a couple hours of cleanup, and bringing supplies for the camp bar.

[TomServo]

MEA CULPA

I've been coming out to Black Rock City, since 1999. I was the one who suggested that fucking Plug & Plays may be possibly responsible for this growing trend of "tourism." And it was I, who told her to politely explain, to the inquiring party, what we did and did not offer. And to check out the First timer's guide, posted on this very site.
Despite what seems to have been read into the OP... we are not frustrated with, nor coming down on virgins asking these types of questions. However we...I.... seem to think, that perhaps these fucking Plug & Plays may be polluting the concept of WHAT a theme camp is. While this is our first year as a registered theme camp, it is NOT its first year. And, certainly NOT my first theme camp or participation in theme camps.
I wish only the best for virgins, and almost ALWAYS give them the benefit of the doubt. To see these twats offering travel packages to BRC, annoys me to no end. And while I've stated previously, everyone is free to camp how they want...I'm starting to think, that these camps are undermining the idea of WHAT a theme camp is. Thus the question mark, in the title. I have yet to visit our web site...that is TG's pet project. In fact didn't know we had one, till later in the game. I was doing it the old fashioned way, I guess, by telling each individual what was required and politely reminding them to read the "First Timer's Guide."
Our camp dues are vodka and bloody mary mix.

[some seeing eye]

I hear your frustration.

But I doubt many virgins know anything about PnP camps. We do a lot on ePlaya, and the PnPers know about them from their friends. People on playa hear about them or see the walls of ultra high end RV's around them.

I think there is also a common Internet culture: need something, just ask the world. So some virgins are doing that.

But you are running an honorable operation. Do you know about the Black Rock farmers market - they might have some garnishes for those drinks!

(Somebody should make a BM planning and prep video)