Are plug and plays brainwashing the new burners?

[VultureChow]

(Somebody should make a BM planning and prep video)

[Elderberry]

...as we get bigger and better known in general terms...

Do you know something I don't? Unless ere are plans to build some new roads, or relocate the event, I can't picture the event permit allowing for much more, if any, growth.

[Elderberry]

As a foreign burner, i asked exactly those questions - coming from abroad I didn't want to have to find Everything, in a day, in a strange town, in shops i didn't know the name of or where they are.
when I was nominated for BDC&WB i asked Doc pyro what was provided, in terms of shelter, food, etc etc etc. At that point I had not heard of "plug n play" I simply wanted to know if i could avoid the stress of trying to find a tent (you know american tents are radically different from european tents right?) that would stand up to playa conditions. Then make shade for it. get food, water, alcohol and everything else needed for a week camping, let alone in desert (no deserts I am aware of in europe)

so having someone get that stuff for me would make it a hell of a lot easier - plus i wouldn't have to work out how to get rid of it. guess who offered to help me out on that score?

as it turned out my own personal nurse offered me a place and a ride etc, so all i have ever had to do is get booze

So I guess that makes you a plug and pay burner by someone's definition then, wouldn't it?

[Elderberry]

Maybe if you can't provide for yourself in a remote desert, this isn't the vacation for you.

NOTE: This comment isn't directed at Captain Goddammit, he just summarized the thread the most suscintly.
If a person wants to go and they have limited financial resources they have no choice but to do it all themselves. If a person wants to go and has unlimited financial resources they have a choice of doing it all themselves or paying someone else to do all the grunt work for them. Frankly, the only reason I can see to objecting to the later is jealousy wrapped in a burnier than though attitude.

Plug and Play is here to stay, better to try and educate those campers to the principles rather than to judge how they choose to burn. Oh, and being able to afford to pay someone for camp setup is being radically self reliant.

[graidawg]

As a foreign burner, i asked exactly those questions - coming from abroad I didn't want to have to find Everything, in a day, in a strange town, in shops i didn't know the name of or where they are.
when I was nominated for BDC&WB i asked Doc pyro what was provided, in terms of shelter, food, etc etc etc. At that point I had not heard of "plug n play" I simply wanted to know if i could avoid the stress of trying to find a tent (you know american tents are radically different from european tents right?) that would stand up to playa conditions. Then make shade for it. get food, water, alcohol and everything else needed for a week camping, let alone in desert (no deserts I am aware of in europe)

so having someone get that stuff for me would make it a hell of a lot easier - plus i wouldn't have to work out how to get rid of it. guess who offered to help me out on that score?

as it turned out my own personal nurse offered me a place and a ride etc, so all i have ever had to do is get booze

So I guess that makes you a plug and pay burner by someone's definition then, wouldn't it?

pretty much JK. i do other stuff and stuff within the camp, but most PnP camps require some sort of participation. In fact my first year someone else paid my camp dues so it was more just plug and play.

[TomServo]

Frankly, the only reason I can see to objecting to the later is jealousy wrapped in a burnier than though attitude.

Jealousy? HA! Don't read too far into people you only know online.

[Savannah]

What if BB&B had something like this on the splash page under their title. A kickass bar camp based out of the Midwest serving the best Bloody Marys in town for the Nth year. No dues, modest frills--experienced campers and stealth virgins welcome. Or whatever is better. Anything that emphasizes 1) your mission as a camp, & 2) an anti-pampering mindset. Then just tighten up the info in the links . . .

* Be explicit about the important items you do provide: Placement, purpose, dinner.
* Fill in some gaps. Is there a big group shade? Are there Showers? A Burn Barrel?
* Be explicit about the major items you do not provide under any circumstances: tents, bikes, water, group trash/recycling, transportation from Reno.

Nix grey areas. If there is a communal shower structure but campers need to provide their own shower bag (or haul their water afterward) it has to be said. If 1 bottle of vodka + 1 bottle of mixer is sufficient as their contribution, but more is fantastic, list it. If there are to be future monetary donations that are not genuinely optional but simply yet to be determined, the approximate amount and what it's going to be used for may prevent unpleasant surprises.

[TomServo]

Honestly, I have had no problems with the people interested in the camp. Even the ones who don't really know what to expect. I've handled each person or group on a one on one basis. Our latest minimalist, I offered a tent we HAPPENED to have, explained what else we provided and suggested what he may want, if his goal was to live through the week. No big deal.
With 35 days till we leave this hell hole for a much NICER hell hole, I, personally, have much more important shit to concern myself with, than mopping up posts with my camps name in it. I've made it clear on this end, that if their are to be any inflammatory posts made, I should make them. Given the circumstances, I'd prefer to wait till Post Burn to be resuming those.

[Savannah]

. . . 35 days til we leave this hell hole for a much NICER hell hole . . .

Sig-worthy.

[theCryptofishist]

I often take in overseas virgins, as their travel can be arduous. However, when I describe our tiny camp, and we barely make the minimum number of warm bodies... most of them look elsewhere. I've only had a couple inquiries. Last one was a couple French ladies who sounded quite interesting, but they have not gotten back to me. I think we're too small and offer little more than shade, a tent, use of a dry kitchen, and no showers.

More fools they. I'd love to be in your camp.

Now I just comfort myself with the sad little thought that the dynamics would change if I were a member.

[theCryptofishist]

brainwashing is surely the best way to put it.. but im not sure if its the prospective campers that are the brainwashed ones.


its you!

you bought the whole burning man 'core values' stuff hook line and sinker!

those 10 principles are only there as a way to advertise the whole thing and package it up and ship it out across the world.. ..do they really represent what this thing is to everyone? not really..

they arent rules.

must so much of this shit always end up in "burning man means this.. and this is the core meaning of burning man.. and if you arent doing this then you shouldnt be there"


one might be proud of fending forthemselves out there but theres no real value in it..

not everyone goes to this event to play home maker and relive the white settling of the west.


some people go to enjoy the stuff that doesnt happen in camp!

Who's going to fill our shoes when the people here now won't even wear them?

It's true. No one can fill my shoes.

[theCryptofishist]

and many of the uninitiated don't know the first thing about it.

And many tautologies are redundant.

[theCryptofishist]

What if BB&B had something like this on the splash page under their title. A kickass bar camp based out of the Midwest serving the best Bloody Marys in town for the Nth year. No dues, modest frills--experienced campers and stealth virgins welcome. Or whatever is better. Anything that emphasizes 1) your mission as a camp, & 2) an anti-pampering mindset. Then just tighten up the info in the links . . .

* Be explicit about the important items you do provide: Placement, purpose, dinner.
* Fill in some gaps. Is there a big group shade? Are there Showers? A Burn Barrel?
* Be explicit about the major items you do not provide under any circumstances: tents, bikes, water, group trash/recycling, transportation from Reno.

Nix grey areas. If there is a communal shower structure but campers need to provide their own shower bag (or haul their water afterward) it has to be said. If 1 bottle of vodka + 1 bottle of mixer is sufficient as their contribution, but more is fantastic, list it. If there are to be future monetary donations that are not genuinely optional but simply yet to be determined, the approximate amount and what it's going to be used for may prevent unpleasant surprises.

Practical, gentle Savannah scores again...

[Elderberry]

Frankly, the only reason I can see to objecting to the later is jealousy wrapped in a burnier than though attitude.

Jealousy? HA! Don't read too far into people you only know online.

Just happens that there has been a lot of back story regarding some of these people I only know online. None of it anything I would want in my resume.

[trilobyte]

Tom - yes, if you were asking about the impact of the full service camps 5 or 6 years ago, then sure you were one of the first few hundred. Hell, I remember the questions being raised (and not for the first time) as far back as 2004 back on tribe. You still haven't really answered the question about what leads you to believe that poster was somehow in contact with a turnkey camp that was filling their heads with the wrong ideas. How exactly do you guys figure that turnkey camps are actually reaching out and connecting with all these new folks and giving them such ideas? Without seeing a connection between the two, the thread essentially boils itself down to "We hate plug and play camps, and blame them for the poor quality of applicants we're receiving."

I've seen a few camps advertise, but nowhere near enough of them are doing so to affect even a tiny percentage of would-be newbies. Jumping to the conclusion that turnkey camps are to blame for the poor quality of applicants on your camp's nebulous page seems a bit misguided. Just because a twat's on the internet offering a travel package doesn't mean that all poor quality applicants are the result of the travel package planner. That twat's on the same internet as ePlaya, as well as your camp web site. But it's the camp site those applications are coming through. Take a look at the site and look for ways you guys can tell people what you're going for with the camp. Reposts and links to things like the ten principles and other Burning Man pages/resources are all fine and good, but other than a camp layout and a meal planning doc, there isn't any information about what your camp is about. Regardless of whether you hate turnkey camps and turnkey campers, and regardless of their impact on the event, you can improve the quality of the applicants you're getting from your web site by improving your web site.

It's hard to say 'average new burner' - not just because they're all unique and special snowflakes (just like everybody else), but because that profile changes quite a bit over the course of the season. What I've seen, on the site, on others, and in person, is that late stage newbies often have very few ideas or clues. They ask about cabins and hotel accommodations, or suffer sticker shock at vehicle/truck/RV rental rates, or their eyes pop wide as they realize they actually have to bring all their shit with them, and then take it back home with them. Things we consider luxuries, they consider basic amenities. That's not because they've been brainwashed by some other camp, it's because they're new and completely unprepared. The question is what to do with them, with answers ranging from posting their emails and mocking them on the internet to breathing deeply and making an effort to help acculturate them.

Even though my camp doesn't have an open enrollment model, we still get a fair number of inquiries. For the ones who don't seem to have it together or who may have completely out-of-whack expectations, I'll usually include some links along with a little longer note to try and help explain how things work, as well as pointers to some useful pages (the survival guide's my go-to, but from there things will vary depending on what was in their note to me.

[TomServo]

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[TomServo]

Frankly, the only reason I can see to objecting to the later is jealousy wrapped in a burnier than though attitude.

Jealousy? HA! Don't read too far into people you only know online.

Just happens that there has been a lot of back story regarding some of these people I only know online. None of it anything I would want in my resume.

Oh poo poooh! how about in your portfolio?

[CornMan]

I think it would be a more accurate question to ask if the plug and play culture is changing the mentality of new attendees of Burning Man. Would the idea that camps exist that have paid staff to pamper the clients' every need change the expectations of new burners if they join the non affluent camps? We know that the idea that super luxury resorts in vacation destinations exist affect the wants and expectations of those who go to less pricey resorts. I believe that our discussions here for and against radical self-reliance are reaching the new burners, and there is a backlash among many of them against camping in a such a level of entitlement that eliminates all need for any kind of self reliance. However, I do not think that many here realize just how pampered the clients at the plug and play camps are. Spoken to a camp employee: "I left my bicycle at the other side if the camp, can you go get it and park it right over here next to my RV?" They even ask the employees to decorate their bicycles for them. But we're talking about people who have not bought their own underwear since they became famous and/or successful ten years ago. They have a completely different reality.

[Eric]

...as we get bigger and better known in general terms...

Do you know something I don't? Unless ere are plans to build some new roads, or relocate the event, I can't picture the event permit allowing for much more, if any, growth.

Full quote:

I don't think it's at epic proportions yet, but as we get bigger and better known in general terms, there seems to be less knowledge about the specifics of what Burning Man is, and what it involves. I don't just see that as a problem of the plug 'n play camps, I see that as a problem with the media in general. Lord knows the Org tries to make it clear enough.

I may not have been clear enough, but by "bigger and better known" I was speaking about the reach of people knowing about Burning Man, not necessarily the size of the actual event (I thought that was clarified in the next part of the sentence, but through the joys of language what can be clear to me can be mud to the next person - just ask my boyfriend...). I don't think that it's the fault of plug 'n play camps, I think that we're just presented as a really cool party-thing for the bucket list, and the specifics about it being a camping trip in hell is left out.

[Simon of the Playa]

you want hell?


i'll give you hell...

[Roberto Dobbisano]

[media]

[TomServo]

i'll give you hell...

Nice! My kind of playground!

[lemur]

ya know..

kids who were born on this day in 1995 will be able to attend burning man 2013... alone.. without a chaperon ...

maybe we're thinking of this wrongly.

perhaps its not the new burners who need a change..




some people still cling on to 1950s america too... they seem pretty damned out of touch today, talking about how it was, about their sanctity and their culture and their ethos.. and other junk.

[Eric]

some people still cling on to 1950s america too... they seem pretty damned out of touch today, talking about how it was, about their sanctity and their culture and their ethos.. and other junk.

Y'know, I can get behind this statement for the most part. I think some basic guidelines (or... principles) are good, but not if they become The Law. The event is changing, there is no way to avoid it. As it becomes more known, change will happen - the choice is to either work to help guide the change, or to be like the old person screaming "get off my lawn".

Things to think about, for me as much as anybody else...

[gyre]

The person that enticed me to go, assures me it was ruined from the original by 1997.

[Simon of the Playa]

some people still cling on to 1950s america too... they seem pretty damned out of touch today, talking about how it was, about their sanctity and their culture and their ethos.. and other junk.

Y'know, I can get behind this statement for the most part. I think some basic guidelines (or... principles) are good, but not if they become The Law. The event is changing, there is no way to avoid it. As it becomes more known, change will happen - the choice is to either work to help guide the change, or to be like the old person screaming "get off my lawn".

Things to think about, for me as much as anybody else...

Oy....are you a reformed burner? I thought maybe conservative, definitely not Orthodox.

[H.G.Crosby]

reformed burners, aren't they the ones that don't wear yarmulkes at the temple burn?

[Roberto Dobbisano]

"SCHNEERSON!"

[Simon of the Playa]

"SCHNEERSON!"

he's not showing up....

get over it already, and throw away that fucking beeper.

[Roberto Dobbisano]

.