Are plug and plays brainwashing the new burners?

[Eric]

Oy....are you a reformed burner? I thought maybe conservative, definitely not Orthodox.

Good lord, I don't think I've ever been a conservative anything. Just thinking of ways to play into the future.

[TomServo]

I'm all for change! Until it involves lazy attitudes. Despite some of my recent posts in other threads, I actually enjoy seeing the creative minds at work on the playa...I also enjoy poking hornets nests. Fucking Plug & Plays just come across as uber lazy and not just anti BM but anti social. When the org starts justifying them, and these camps are sold as vacation packages it only promotes lazy attitudes. I seem to remember Larry explaining that Burning Man is WORK..well work for some.. Fuck em! as long as they exist, I will continue to voice my opinion ...that they represent the scum of the default world, I've always abhorred. And yes..it's still everyone's playground.

[gyre]

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/46790 ... s-nest.htm

[Turtleburp]

Ans there I was thinking this is heat miser

[media]

Let's all lighten up a little eh?

Friends of mine avoid the boards now and not because of 'snark' but because their perception of Burning Man is a curmudgeonly old bunch of fucks complaining about how much better it was and how change is wrong.
I struggle to refer them to the useful parts because of this.


I am not saying I like plug and play campers but different strokes and all

Now listen to the nice music and repent peanuts or repent, peanuts or just peanuts

[Savannah]

Friends of mine avoid the boards now and not because of 'snark' but because their perception of Burning Man is a curmudgeonly old bunch of fucks complaining about how much better it was and how change is wrong.

On the upside, it will always be that much easier for you & Bumble to get tickets.

[gyre]

lol

[BBadger]

MEH.

Haven't we already seen these responses for years involving people living out of RVs? Isn't that essentially renting a furnished home on wheels for living out on the playa? What is really the distinction here between those and living out of a turnkey camp? That you paid another burner instead of the RV rental company?

So people don't want to live out of tents. So they want some camp amenities. WHAT FUCKING EVER. If your camp doesn't offer them, tell them to look elsewhere. Not your problem; your camp burns differently.

Anyway, turnkey camps will not make any significant difference in the long run. Quite frankly, I could not give two fucks about turnkey camps so long as they clean up their shit, and don't use up too many of the available tickets. From what I've seen, they don't. The camps generally do a good job cleaning up their areas, and the price of turnkey camps is so high that they don't attract all that many buyers anyway.

A bigger problem would be the Thursday night ravers that camp for a few nights and leave their tents and shit as MOOP. Why don't those people receive more whole threads dedicated to their already disastrous view of how to treat the event? Those people use up far more tickets and they leave a bigger negative effect than any of these "vet"-labeled, so-called "tourists" that happen to want to enjoy their stay without the fuss some "vets" somehow relish.

Even then, the biggest problem is when or if people decide to compromise their society's values because of some sort of perceived existential threat. Those reactions are like how people react to terrorism or immigration with xenophobic and rights-violating measures to isolate themselves. Such measures destroy the real fabric of society, creating a far less open and free environment where real creativity grows. We've already seen repugnant proposals being made such as limiting attendance through established camps via "apprenticeships" (i.e. institutionalized nepotism with an arrogant tone of vet-superiority). The last thing this event needs is an institutionalized barrier to entry simply because some people have some lofty view of how to burn beyond not destroying the place.

So really, what the fuck? People are losing their minds here over things that don't even negatively impact their own burn.

It's like "vets" are afflicted with Burnier-than-thouism, like someone caught up in a religion's ritual rather than teachings. That the idea of "being a burner" is more important than what you get out of the burn. These new people, even turnkeyers, seem to want to enjoy the burn for the experience of the burn. Let them. They get it. Let them be inspired to bring better things to the burn like you would yourself, but don't expect you can just foist that concept on them.

All this stuff about participation and self-reliance: cut those burgins some slack. They've no doubt participated in making their own burn possible; that's about as much as you do your first burn. Just because they're not making the trip some huge adventure in DIY doesn't make them lazy shits who don't contribute anything. They're also self-reliant so long as they're not mooching shit off others; it doesn't matter if they're relying on cash to rent an RV, building a monkeyhut over their tent, or paying someone to set up their hex yurt.

If someone is contacting your camp about camp amenities they want to seek out, well shit, just tell them your camp doesn't have those. They can join if they want to bring their own shit, or find a different camp. It's really no different than seeking out an RV share. At least they're asking around rather than just showing up and expecting shit to be provided for them like some dumbasses on bikes have proposed.

[GreyCoyote]

THIS!!! The meatcake-with-teeth speaks the truth.

But I still aint hugging him, and his avatar gives me nightmares.

[graidawg]

Once again Bbadger hits the nail squarely and firmly, those PnP campers are contributing at least a little, they come admire our art and maybe just maybe next year they will donate to some fantastic piece of art they want funded or create something themselves

The fucking idiots who want to bring as little as possible - rely on other peoples camps to feed and water them, it never occures to them to create or contribute something to our little party, the dicks whose sole purpose is to get high and fuck somebody and don't care about the art and creativity, those are the people we need to educate.

steven King wrote a short story using BM as a starting point. 3 people who get tickets go for a day to get high then leave - I bet many many people that is there only knowledge of BM a party in the desert attended by fuckwits who only go there to get high and nearly die because it never occurred to them to bring water. Or the episode of Csi where all you see is a bunch of ravers dancing and off their faces on E.

How many people do you meet who have absolutely no fucking idea that BM even exists let alone what it is, they do a quick google and immediately think its all about them music and drugs?


plug n play gives first timers a chance to see what they have to cope with, a way foreigners to avoid the hassle and trouble of finding and buying all the things they need and as has been said before where do you draw the line? is it ok if someone buys a tent for you? brings your water and food - as long as you pay for it.
what if all a camp requires is you contribute to their funding?


here's a thought, what if next year i can only come from sunday to monday? i dont help set up BDC or DPB, all my stuff is brought in for me (food water tent and all that) all i do is participate in camp activities because BDC is pretty easy going, i pay me fees - use the shower eat the food drink the wine then on monday, pre tear down i leave. does that make BDC plug n play? or me? or does it get a bye because i might be the only one? do I get a bye because i did stuff in the past, or because i volounteer?

is it somehow ok to hate on plug n play because they pay someone to set up there camp and you hear stories about them not "participating" and yet ask the public to fund your bar so you can give away more booze? or for any kickdegogo that asks for money to do something for that matter

or shall we just start hating on everyone and disregard inclusiveness as one of the principles.

[lemur]

is it somehow ok to hate on plug n play because they pay someone to set up there camp and you hear stories about them not "participating" and yet ask the public to fund your bar so you can give away more booze?

think of all the lazy people who never need to bring booze to burning man who are enabled by these booze camps that are brainwashing new burners in to thinking that they dont even need to bring their own alcohol and mixers! radical self reliance be damned... someone kickstated your radical self reliance away!

-signed
someone whos never brought booze to burning man but enjoys the hundreds of plug and play bars

(although i think i will bring my own booze and mixers this year.. im tired of running out of stuff i like to drink by wednsday)

[AntiM]

I suppose no one is going to bring any of their own damn art!

[graidawg]

I suppose no one is going to bring any of their own damn art!

I might buy someone elses art and bring that.

[lemur]

I suppose no one is going to bring any of their own damn art!

i just looked it up.. and im guessing we are getting closer to some weird quasi future world where the art is theirs in name only


kick starter projects tagged with #burning man for 2013: $437,809 pledged (with many still accepting funds and not fully funded)
indiegogo projects with keyword "burningman" pledged for 2013: $69,715 (with many still accepting funds and not fully funded)
honorarium grants that come from ticket sales in 2010/2011/2012: $453,000, $591,000, $681,930.. 2013: probably at least $600,000

rough total of 'free' money to artists/camps/projects in 2013? at least $1,100,000 yah! 1.1 million.


that isnt to say lotsa folks arent forking out lots and lots of cash to do their thing and supplement out of pocket where this free money fails to fill in all of the cracks..

but dam yo.


here we are with folks complaining about people paying money for services like: a place to camp.. as being 'lazy' meanwhile folks are accepting over 1 million bucks in hand outs just to make all of the art and other shit appear on the playa... i think we got plenty of "lazy" to spread around.

[graidawg]

I suppose no one is going to bring any of their own damn art!

i just looked it up.. and im guessing we are getting closer to some weird quasi future world where the art is theirs in name only


kick starter projects tagged with #burning man for 2013: $437,809 pledged (with many still accepting funds and not fully funded)
indiegogo projects with keyword "burningman" pledged for 2013: $69,715 (with many still accepting funds and not fully funded)
honorarium grants that come from ticket sales in 2010/2011/2012: $453,000, $591,000, $681,930.. 2013: probably at least $600,000

rough total of 'free' money to artists/camps/projects in 2013? at least $1,100,000 yah! 1.1 million.


that isnt to say lotsa folks arent forking out lots and lots of cash to do their thing and supplement out of pocket where this free money fails to fill in all of the cracks..

but dam yo.


here we are with folks complaining about people paying money for services like: a place to camp.. as being 'lazy' meanwhile folks are accepting over 1 million bucks in hand outs just to make all of the art and other shit appear on the playa... i think we got plenty of "lazy" to spread around.

i think we can just STFU about plug n play and kickstarter now.

[lemur]

BUT THEY RUINED BURNING MAN.

[Elderberry]

nebulous

LOL that's being kind.

[CitizenRandom]

It is not the Plug and Play - but for the lax application of regulations regarding introducing new blood to the burning pool of our community.
Yearly as we grow, we continually make accomodations for providing a burn that will be a return the following year- conduct is advised and prohibited- Old schoolers are all disenchanted..grumbling about BM being a sold out show for it being void of its old flavor...

Whose fault is that? Borg? LLC? Is it the Old Office Gods ..or is it The new guard of preskoolin office hires considered new management without hardly more than even 2 burns under their belt?
Fucked up luxury condos on wheels have always littered our lawns in BRC. Some fuckers are simply pussys or must have air conditioning to be well...
Plug and play is is a great idea- our citizen base and its global diversity is aspected better as is the draw from the playa players who are the Thursten Howel the 3ds of our little soiree Lovey...whom provide art worlds best diet- funding and promotion .
Burningman is to ART what Hollywood was to film industry...or Caan...Its every exotic travel local - every rual campout- its Vegas- its Summer of Love- its Disney with soul its ours and we need to Own it...its a lifestyle movement that has exsisted longer than the summer of Love= the Me generation or the 80s - its Cheshire cat is outta the bag -finally- and its amazing its takin this long but THIS is the purpose of all that awesome some of us recall and bemoan as BGM before Greenman...

Plug and play should be a new form ..infact any new form should be discovered as a valid steping stone of our vector progression . More people brings more ideas and more WORK AROUNDS which are a byproduct of our community.

I say PLUG AND PLAY AWAY>>>and that it be handled differently than with such permissive oversite. it should reflect the BMP guidelines as it is from the default community resorce yet provided by potentially either local intrests or corporate brand carriers..where that $ goes and to whom should be a valid matter...

lets now forward to my post ... The free range PresCOOLed Virgin and its ugly cousin the Birginoob

[graidawg]

can someone translate for me?

[AntiM]

can someone translate for me?

Sure.

Drugs are bad, m'kay?

[ygmir]

can someone translate for me?

Sure.

Drugs are bad, m'kay?

a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

[5280MeV]

I still find this topic fascinating and disturbing. Digging around I was unable to find this specific sort of conversation in eplaya or tribe circa 2003/2004, but I am sure it is there somewhere as Trilo mentioned. It would be really interesting to hear this conversation before there were a set of "10 principles" to quote endlessly, but I did find on the 1999 BM website that this is specifically a radical self-reliance and radical self-expression event:

Burning Man is about radical self expression and radical self reliance. We are a self governing community and you are primarily responsible for your well being. As a participant in Burning Man, you must bring all necessities to the desert: food, shelter, water, fuel -- everything you need to survive.

- Burning Man Required Reading, 1999 (http://web.archive.org/web/199910121232 ... uired.html)

So this has always been about self reliance (at least as far as the internet goes...) and self-reliance has been enshrined as a principle for nearly 10 years.

So why are there so many people forking over huge sums of money for people to run a camp for them and choose their costumes? It doesn't really make much sense when you think about it. It is plain silly. Why do that at a "radical self-reliance" event?

Are they just there for the giant artwork and sound stages? When you think about it, aren't there an awfully large amount of giant structures sitting around for a radical self-reliance event in the first place?

This it all made more sense to me when I looked at the Apocryphal principles of Burning Man, the 2nd one of which states:

Giant Fucking Sculptures
Our community values building giant fucking sculptures and burning them down. We are willing to ruin our finances, destroy relationships, lose our jobs, and engage in any sort of ethically questionable behavior in order to bring the most incredibly fucking big pieces of artwork into the desert and burn them down.

This is what Burning Man is about, as much as radical this-and-that. You only need to go for one weekend to figure that much out.

So why does anyone have a problem with a bunch of people setting up a full-service concierge camp, sipping martinis, and handing over huge wads of cash to allow burners to blow up some massive shit? Does it really, honestly, make any sort of a difference if they sit there and gawk?

Is it a purely 90s/Generation X conceit to simply assume that anyone with deep pockets forking over cash is going to ruin everything? Is this knee-jerk disdain for consumer/mainstream culture an outdated pre-internet ideal? Is it now time to satirize our own anti-commercial angst?

Can we just take the money and build bigger shit?

[theCryptofishist]

Burning Man is about radical self expression and radical self reliance. We are a self governing community and you are primarily responsible for your well being. As a participant in Burning Man, you must bring all necessities to the desert: food, shelter, water, fuel -- everything you need to survive.

- Burning Man Required Reading, 1999 (http://web.archive.org/web/199910121232 ... uired.html)

So this has always been about self reliance (at least as far as the internet goes...) and self-reliance has been enshrined as a principle for nearly 10 years.

(Psst. Over ten years. Almost 15--take your choice.)

[Elderberry]

Can we just take the money and build bigger shit?

Yes. And the only thing disturbing about it at all is all of the people bitching and moaning about it.

Once again, it's nothing more than jealousy and envy rearing its ugly head.

[tatonka]

this is my 1st year, and Im sure a few years from now Burningman will be ruined in some way

[Turtleburp]

Friends of mine avoid the boards now and not because of 'snark' but because their perception of Burning Man is a curmudgeonly old bunch of fucks complaining about how much better it was and how change is wrong.

On the upside, it will always be that much easier for you & Bumble to get tickets.

Shit - I'm doing it wrong the idea is to put people off to ensure placement and ticket...

I now think that plug and play camps, RVers, Newbs and everyone else are to blame for everything I don't like and hereby call them out for a rumble at P6.

Combatants please note that I will be in my playa form of a cute little Irishman responding only to the name James Browne and pretending not to want to fight.
Don't let this hold you back!

[Sic Pup]

What's all the hubbub about?



No.

Done.

Next.

[Turtleburp]

[media]

[graidawg]

hey YOU, how about this as an idea.

you hate rv'ers, plug and play campers, rich people, sparkleponies, ravers, frat boys and weekenders. you avoid them, don't partake of there beer, fresh food, music or anything else.

I like all the above, show them "the other way" to burn educate and welcome them. drink the beer and pizza from the fridge, listen the dubstep or urban house (or whatever music they play) look at the sparkelpony, eat the cold melon the weekender brought to share, laugh at the frat boys trying to rodeo the sparklepony and generally have a good time being radicaly inclusive.


then between us we can call out the mooping darkwad, invite the spectator to particpate in out awesome camp, going wandering round BRC and find the timid newbie who is to shy to go into the swish embassy because they don't know anyone there and maybe, just maybe the shy mooping darkwad spectator will come back next year with an awesome mobile grilled cheese making flaming art piece. Who knows perhaps it might just work


also it has just occured. perhaps spectator could mean don't look and complain about the thing that pisses you off, but participate in fixing it.

[ygmir]

Can we just take the money and build bigger shit?

Yes. And the only thing disturbing about it at all is all of the people bitching and moaning about it.

Once again, it's nothing more than jealousy and envy rearing its ugly head.

I think you're 80% right. There's a little "righteous indignation", however misplaced, in there too.

[BBadger]

There are really only three main "principles" for Burning Man, all borne out of the need to keep an event hosting 30-80 thousand people manageable and from the choice of not allowing outside commercial interests to directly take part in the event.

1. "Decommodification" - to prevent commercial interests from setting up shop or being expected by attendees. Other than this being a choice defining how the event operates, it also helps avoid taxation, licensing, sponsorship, and other commercial problems.
2. "Leave no trace" - to make cleanup under BLM guidelines easier, and to reduce staff/cleanup costs for such a large, remote event.
3. "Radical self-reliance" - People cannot rely on the event to provide anything aside from required bathrooms, medical facilities, security. It creates no expectation of other services, vendors, etc. which goes hand-in-hand with decommodification. However, there are no stipulations on how you finance your vacation.

In other words: don't expect to buy or sell shit at the event; don't leave a mess; don't expect other people to have stuff for you unless you've secured it yourself. We should only jump all over people (beyond the usual snark) if they're not respecting the above three "binding" principles, as they hold the fabric of the event together.

Outside the above, it's basically a blank slate where people can make the event their own. The other seven "principles" (participation, immediacy, inclusion, etc.) are just there to encourage a more positive atmosphere for the event. Hopefully, that blank slate will encourage people to want to become involved, whether it be art, helping people out, going out of the way to keep the place clean, or whatever good things we associate with the event. If it doesn't, well that person is probably not coming back anyway.

We should be wary, however, when someone tries to foist some certain vision of "how to burn" on everyone else. That will only stifle what makes this event so great: new ideas. As long as those three main binding principles are followed, the event should ebb and flow according to the needs, wants, efforts, ideas, and inspirations of the attendees. That also includes how people finance their burns in order to concentrate on other aspects of the burn. Perhaps we should all take a step back and reevaluate what parts of our burns are really more about ritual and pride than actual importance or need.