Are plug and plays brainwashing the new burners?

[lemur]

And how "lazy" can they be if they worked hard enough to afford a "five star" Burning Man experience?

100% of them are trust fund babies, totally.

[CornMan]

I think Tom Servo is firmly entrenched in the old school of thought against the notion that if Burning Man can change to more resemble all the other festivals out there, it must do so, and we must embrace that occurance. Take a dozen photos of the crowd at 12 different festies, and you'll see they all look pretty much the same. Look at any photo of Burning Man, and you'll see that it looks very different, and I suspect that Tom Servo is OK with it staying like that.

[CornMan]

Actually, we went through a similar debate on a website dedicated to Baja California travel. One side wished for Baja to remain on option for adventure travel with camping, fishing, and watersports permitted on the coastal areas. The other side was in favor of all inclusive resorts. The side in favor of the resorts was firmly in the majority, but the economy has stymied the wall to wall development of the coastline. Of course it wasn't for us to decide the development plans for Mexico, but that didn't stop us from expressing our love for Baja California.

[GreyCoyote]

When you find yourself spouting absolutes regarding Burning Man, I suggest that a little intellectual de-mooping might be appropriate.

[theCryptofishist]

and if i want to hire hookers so i can snort blow off of their ass while they blow me thats MY FUCKING BUSINESS...

Sounds uncomfortable...

[otakup0pe]

And how "lazy" can they be if they worked hard enough to afford a "five star" Burning Man experience?

Assuming they were not born into money of course.

[theCryptofishist]

They're cheating themselves.
But that's been said before, and will be said again.


Wanna ride bikes?

[CornMan]

I'd say one simple line in the sand not to cross would be giving placement to camps that use paid employees to work in the camps at the BM festival while the festival is going on to take care of basic camping needs for able bodied attendees.

WHO THE FUCK DIED AND MADE YOU Larry?


jesus christ, the ultimate you're doing it wrong.


worry about your own shit, please.....what about someone who needs an assistant in order to move around, clean themselves or provide meals for?


what? Disabled Persons are not allowed Now because YOU dont think they are radically self reliant? go fuck yourself.

I think you misunderstood me in my reference back several hours ago when I was espousing the encouragement for all able bodied attendees to honor the principle of radical-self reliance. I said able bodied because those with disabilities should get some sort of an allowance as human decency would suggest.

[CornMan]

You guys won this debate. I will never mention plug and play on this chat site again or visit such threads, and I will not discourage plug and plays as an option to people I meet at regional events who are curious about Burning Man. Plug and plays: in. Costumes: out. Feathers: in. What's next?

Wait, what?! Costumes are out? Since when?

I joined in on a thread about a month ago that suggested that costumes are part of what makes Burning Man special. There was a strong backlash against that notion, and the vast majority of people posting said that they prefer to wear street clothes on the playa.

[Ugly Dougly]

50,000 participants, 50,000 opinions.

[Elderberry]

You guys won this debate. I will never mention plug and play on this chat site again or visit such threads, and I will not discourage plug and plays as an option to people I meet at regional events who are curious about Burning Man. Plug and plays: in. Costumes: out. Feathers: in. What's next?

Wait, what?! Costumes are out? Since when?

I joined in on a thread about a month ago that suggested that costumes are part of what makes Burning Man special. There was a strong backlash against that notion, and the vast majority of people posting said that they prefer to wear street clothes on the playa.

Other than my fur coat, I don't wear costumes, but I sure do enjoy watching those that do. I too would have to agree that costumes are a small part of what helps to make the event special. Other than the art and theme camps of course, I think that it's the combined parts of all the small, and not so small, unexpected, interesting and unique things that are BM.

[Elderberry]

And how "lazy" can they be if they worked hard enough to afford a "five star" Burning Man experience?

100% of them are trust fund babies, totally.

Not true. Unequivocally.

[ygmir]

Roses are red

Violets are blue;

where you lay your head,

Is only up to you,

so get all your gear

in whatever you've got

keep water near,

you know it is hot,

and judge not of others

Whatever they do.

Judge not your brothers, It's not your place, or your business, everyone can and should Burn as they choose, at whatever makes them happy, doing how they want because it's a douche that says "you're doing it wrong" then then has some of their own idiosyncrasies that no one likes or understands. How dare anyone tell another "how to do it right"?


so fuck you.

[CornMan]

Roses are red

Violets are blue;

where you lay your head,

Is only up to you,

so get all your gear

in whatever you've got

keep water near,

you know it is hot,

and judge not of others

Whatever they do.

Judge not your brothers, It's not your place, or your business, everyone can and should Burn as they choose, at whatever makes them happy, doing how they want because it's a douche that says "you're doing it wrong" then then has some of their own idiosyncrasies that no one likes or understands. How dare anyone tell another "how to do it right"?


so fuck you.

This is a good one to copy and paste for other threads when the snarkers start up with their heavy judgment.

[GreyCoyote]

Now THAT was cool, Ygmir!

[tamarakay]

Jeebus, this thread is still alive?

[CornMan]

Jeebus, this thread is still alive?

Each year it's something that people what to talk about. One thing about joining a plug and play is that while an oral contract is legally binding, it would still be prudent pay via charge card and to get the amenities that are offered in exchange for the membership price in written form in case you need to take legal action.

[lemur]

https://www.blm.gov/epl-front-office/pr ... ations.pdf

methinks that things are a bit more looked after than you realize.

(of course this only applies to the more upfront opertions and not the 'mom and pop' ops that fly under the radar..)


9. The permittee shall provide BLM with a list AND prices for goods or services that will
be offered under the SRP authorization.

 10. The permittee shall provide the BLM with a location (street address within Black
Rock City) for each RV that is being provided for users.

 12. The permittee shall conspicuously display a BLM RV use sticker (provided by the
BLM), numbered and representative of the respective RV, within the window of the RV.



it looks like 4 of the 10 permitted RV vendor ops in 2012 were small time ops.. judging by the listing of their business as just a generic "rv rental" and not a business name like the others..

https://www.blm.gov/epl-front-office/pr ... endors.pdf


youre probably less likely to get burned by a up front plug and play vendor than you are ..well, most any random theme camp .... theres a big nasty paper trail for these guys! (and they seem like legit businesses anyways.. heck, they filed paperwork!)

[Elderberry]

Interesting.

[theCryptofishist]

50,000 participants, 50,000 opinions.

I'm one of the participants. 50,001 opinions. Maybe even 50,002.

[TomServo]

ONE Opinion here..and despite the accusations, I believe EVERYONE SHOULD BURN HOW THEY LIKE! Just expect assholes like me to ask you if you couldn't do it yourself. ASK YOU..NOT DEMAND! Just give it a try!

[BBadger]

The great thing about camping, whether in the woods or on the playa, is it's GEARED towards helping you LEARN how to do things for yourself. And, the more SERVICES you buy the more it DEFEATS the purpose.

But Tom, that's what you get out of the burn.

If you're going to talk about camping, camping is not about learning how to do things yourself, camping is about enjoying yourself out in the wilderness. Except maybe for that Survivor Man guy, I doubt anyone tries to make their camping more strenuous than they have to simply for the fact that time is limited when you're camping, and you want to make the most out of your time out there. As such, the entire camping industry is built upon making our stay out in the wilderness just that more comfortable and easy to access. Light-weight mats, tents, cookware, backpacks, etc. Comfortable mattresses, spacious tents, tasty instant food, stoves for cooking, insulation to feel warm. These great technologies and conveniences give us more time to spend enjoying the wilderness without the worries of survival.

Likewise, this Burning Man event is not about helping you learn how to do things for yourself. It's more a side-effect: most people do that simply because it is cheaper and because the event takes place in an environment that has fewer ready-made solutions. If you take pride in doing things yourself, that's your decision. You're better for it. For others, it may not be a priority.

For all the things we have in the world -- no matter what our means -- time is the only thing that has the same hard limits for everyone. The only way we have more time is to be more efficient or have someone else dedicate the time for us. So you have a decision to make: do you spend that time learning to do some things for yourself, or prioritize your time elsewhere?

Some people enjoy the process of learning some new skill -- even if it may only be applicable for a week a year. Others would rather spend that time buying a ready-made solution to concentrate on other things. For example, I pay an accountant to do my taxes even though I could probably spend a day and do it myself. I could also spend hours hunched over, soldering up my own LED lights for the burn, but I just buy them from some online shop so I don't have to. In the end, I don't regret my decisions. Money buys time, and now I have more time to do things I want to do.

Also, people are doing things for themselves too. Just because you don't see people doing things in the manner you're accustomed to doesn't mean it hasn't been done. Some people simply aren't very handy or strong; others may not be artistic enough to make art; some people may even contribute solely through financing a project. Maybe the money someone paid for a "turnkey" solution may have gone to financing some other larger project. Maybe those people are working on some other project and don't have time to deal with the mundane aspects of setting up camp accommodations. Maybe someone bought or hauled in the accommodation for others in agreement that the others would set it up for them. You just don't know, and it's really hard to qualify the judgement that someone is just "lazy".

Ignoring what people do or do not do, what about these "turnkey" accommodations? Is it really laziness? So what if someone paid someone else to set up a hex-yurt for them on the playa: is it really any different than people spending 10-minutes setting up some tent bought at REI? Was anything really "learned" here? So what if someone's camp has a shower or a toilet: is pissing in your pee-jug or going to the communal porta-potties really a marginally greater level of effort? Is boiling some water for ramen really some impressive feat of self-sufficiency?

We shouldn't pretend that we're doing all that much more than these turnkey camps. It's not like you're living in some small village in a shanty on a Peace Corp mission. I wouldn't take too much pride in your own handiwork. The only real difference is that some of us have more money in our pocket at the end of the day. Well, good. You're the better for it like doing your own plumbing or car repairs. Use that money for other things. Just don't pretend that you're getting much more out of the event than the person in the turnkey camp. You may be getting different things out of the event, but probably not more. We all have the same amount of time out there anyway.

[TomServo]

camping is not about learning how to do things yourself

Traditionally, yes it is. Were you never a boy scout or cub scout? Common sense says: If your going to live in the wild..LEARN to adapt.

[TomServo]

Otherwise, you're just exploiting one of the few "rarely touched" places in our country, for your own pleasure..and THAT is fucking low!

[Lonesomebri]

I’m arranging a camp where the members will pay me an inclusion fee. For these other members, this will be the first time on the playa…in Nevada…in the US. The crew’s getting picked up down on the southern border, being brought up in a large panel truck. Though the defacto leader, the crew refers to me with the playa name they’ve lovingly tagged on me, “coyote”. Oh, and I make them set up the whole camp. I call it Plug and Playalandia. Don't harsh my burn with moralistic judgment.

[Elderberry]

Eloquently said. Too bad it has fallen on deaf ears.

The great thing about camping, whether in the woods or on the playa, is it's GEARED towards helping you LEARN how to do things for yourself. And, the more SERVICES you buy the more it DEFEATS the purpose.

But Tom, that's what you get out of the burn.

If you're going to talk about camping, camping is not about learning how to do things yourself, camping is about enjoying yourself out in the wilderness. Except maybe for that Survivor Man guy, I doubt anyone tries to make their camping more strenuous than they have to simply for the fact that time is limited when you're camping, and you want to make the most out of your time out there. As such, the entire camping industry is built upon making our stay out in the wilderness just that more comfortable and easy to access. Light-weight mats, tents, cookware, backpacks, etc. Comfortable mattresses, spacious tents, tasty instant food, stoves for cooking, insulation to feel warm. These great technologies and conveniences give us more time to spend enjoying the wilderness without the worries of survival.

Likewise, this Burning Man event is not about helping you learn how to do things for yourself. It's more a side-effect: most people do that simply because it is cheaper and because the event takes place in an environment that has fewer ready-made solutions. If you take pride in doing things yourself, that's your decision. You're better for it. For others, it may not be a priority.

For all the things we have in the world -- no matter what our means -- time is the only thing that has the same hard limits for everyone. The only way we have more time is to be more efficient or have someone else dedicate the time for us. So you have a decision to make: do you spend that time learning to do some things for yourself, or prioritize your time elsewhere?

Some people enjoy the process of learning some new skill -- even if it may only be applicable for a week a year. Others would rather spend that time buying a ready-made solution to concentrate on other things. For example, I pay an accountant to do my taxes even though I could probably spend a day and do it myself. I could also spend hours hunched over, soldering up my own LED lights for the burn, but I just buy them from some online shop so I don't have to. In the end, I don't regret my decisions. Money buys time, and now I have more time to do things I want to do.

Also, people are doing things for themselves too. Just because you don't see people doing things in the manner you're accustomed to doesn't mean it hasn't been done. Some people simply aren't very handy or strong; others may not be artistic enough to make art; some people may even contribute solely through financing a project. Maybe the money someone paid for a "turnkey" solution may have gone to financing some other larger project. Maybe those people are working on some other project and don't have time to deal with the mundane aspects of setting up camp accommodations. Maybe someone bought or hauled in the accommodation for others in agreement that the others would set it up for them. You just don't know, and it's really hard to qualify the judgement that someone is just "lazy".

Ignoring what people do or do not do, what about these "turnkey" accommodations? Is it really laziness? So what if someone paid someone else to set up a hex-yurt for them on the playa: is it really any different than people spending 10-minutes setting up some tent bought at REI? Was anything really "learned" here? So what if someone's camp has a shower or a toilet: is pissing in your pee-jug or going to the communal porta-potties really a marginally greater level of effort? Is boiling some water for ramen really some impressive feat of self-sufficiency?

We shouldn't pretend that we're doing all that much more than these turnkey camps. It's not like you're living in some small village in a shanty on a Peace Corp mission. I wouldn't take too much pride in your own handiwork. The only real difference is that some of us have more money in our pocket at the end of the day. Well, good. You're the better for it like doing your own plumbing or car repairs. Use that money for other things. Just don't pretend that you're getting much more out of the event than the person in the turnkey camp. You may be getting different things out of the event, but probably not more. We all have the same amount of time out there anyway.

[BBadger]

camping is not about learning how to do things yourself

Traditionally, yes it is. Were you never a boy scout or cub scout? Common sense says: If your going to live in the wild..LEARN to adapt.

Not even then. "Camping" has always been based on bringing enough supplies to last you your trip. "Survival" is only when something goes wrong. So what you do is bring in all the things you need to survive and enjoy your time out in the wilderness. For Burning Man, it is all about what you bring to the playa as there are no other resources (in theory) to "adapt" to using. You're not going to find trees to make a campfire to cook with, or a stream-bed to filter water from. In that respect, there is no living-off-the-land survival aspect at all to Burning Man, only preparedness.

As for Boy Scouts, the first things that come to mind when someone mentions the Boy Scouts are: arsoning $100,000 public toilets (before, after), vandalizing fossils, shitting in streams, causing forest fires, losing kids in the wilderness, discriminating against Asians (e.g. my uncle) back in the day, and discriminating against homosexuals. Yeah, I know, I'm concentrating on the bad, and those incidents are the exception, but those things come to my mind. I don't hold the organization in high regard.

And yes, they do learn some survival skills, but they're rarely used in their camp-outs, just as they're rarely if ever used at Burning Man.

[TomServo]

Eloquently said. Too bad it has fallen on deaf ears.

The great thing about camping, whether in the woods or on the playa, is it's GEARED towards helping you LEARN how to do things for yourself. And, the more SERVICES you buy the more it DEFEATS the purpose.

But Tom, that's what you get out of the burn.

If you're going to talk about camping, camping is not about learning how to do things yourself, camping is about enjoying yourself out in the wilderness. Except maybe for that Survivor Man guy, I doubt anyone tries to make their camping more strenuous than they have to simply for the fact that time is limited when you're camping, and you want to make the most out of your time out there. As such, the entire camping industry is built upon making our stay out in the wilderness just that more comfortable and easy to access. Light-weight mats, tents, cookware, backpacks, etc. Comfortable mattresses, spacious tents, tasty instant food, stoves for cooking, insulation to feel warm. These great technologies and conveniences give us more time to spend enjoying the wilderness without the worries of survival.

Likewise, this Burning Man event is not about helping you learn how to do things for yourself. It's more a side-effect: most people do that simply because it is cheaper and because the event takes place in an environment that has fewer ready-made solutions. If you take pride in doing things yourself, that's your decision. You're better for it. For others, it may not be a priority.

For all the things we have in the world -- no matter what our means -- time is the only thing that has the same hard limits for everyone. The only way we have more time is to be more efficient or have someone else dedicate the time for us. So you have a decision to make: do you spend that time learning to do some things for yourself, or prioritize your time elsewhere?

Some people enjoy the process of learning some new skill -- even if it may only be applicable for a week a year. Others would rather spend that time buying a ready-made solution to concentrate on other things. For example, I pay an accountant to do my taxes even though I could probably spend a day and do it myself. I could also spend hours hunched over, soldering up my own LED lights for the burn, but I just buy them from some online shop so I don't have to. In the end, I don't regret my decisions. Money buys time, and now I have more time to do things I want to do.

Also, people are doing things for themselves too. Just because you don't see people doing things in the manner you're accustomed to doesn't mean it hasn't been done. Some people simply aren't very handy or strong; others may not be artistic enough to make art; some people may even contribute solely through financing a project. Maybe the money someone paid for a "turnkey" solution may have gone to financing some other larger project. Maybe those people are working on some other project and don't have time to deal with the mundane aspects of setting up camp accommodations. Maybe someone bought or hauled in the accommodation for others in agreement that the others would set it up for them. You just don't know, and it's really hard to qualify the judgement that someone is just "lazy".

Ignoring what people do or do not do, what about these "turnkey" accommodations? Is it really laziness? So what if someone paid someone else to set up a hex-yurt for them on the playa: is it really any different than people spending 10-minutes setting up some tent bought at REI? Was anything really "learned" here? So what if someone's camp has a shower or a toilet: is pissing in your pee-jug or going to the communal porta-potties really a marginally greater level of effort? Is boiling some water for ramen really some impressive feat of self-sufficiency?

We shouldn't pretend that we're doing all that much more than these turnkey camps. It's not like you're living in some small village in a shanty on a Peace Corp mission. I wouldn't take too much pride in your own handiwork. The only real difference is that some of us have more money in our pocket at the end of the day. Well, good. You're the better for it like doing your own plumbing or car repairs. Use that money for other things. Just don't pretend that you're getting much more out of the event than the person in the turnkey camp. You may be getting different things out of the event, but probably not more. We all have the same amount of time out there anyway.

Re read your shit. If your a pleasure seeking whore..you're absolutely right! edit..my bad

[TomServo]

camping is not about learning how to do things yourself

Traditionally, yes it is. Were you never a boy scout or cub scout? Common sense says: If your going to live in the wild..LEARN to adapt.

Not even then. "Camping" has always been based on bringing enough supplies to last you your trip. "Survival" is only when something goes wrong. So what you do is bring in all the things you need to survive and enjoy your time out in the wilderness. For Burning Man, it is all about what you bring to the playa as there are no other resources (in theory) to "adapt" to using. You're not going to find trees to make a campfire to cook with, or a stream-bed to filter water from. In that respect, there is no living-off-the-land survival aspect at all to Burning Man, only preparedness.

As for Boy Scouts, the first things that come to mind when someone mentions the Boy Scouts are: arsoning $100,000 public toilets (before, after), vandalizing fossils, shitting in streams, causing forest fires, losing kids in the wilderness, discriminating against Asians (e.g. my uncle) back in the day, and discriminating against homosexuals. Yeah, I know, I'm concentrating on the bad, and those incidents are the exception, but those things come to my mind. I don't hold the organization in high regard.

And yes, they do learn some survival skills, but they're rarely used in their camp-outs, just as they're rarely if ever used at Burning Man.

Glad you enjoy the desert in your fucking BUNKER! I'm making the Call NOW! My morals are better than YOURS!

[Elderberry]

Oh my, aren't you the one to be talking about morals.