Are plug and plays brainwashing the new burners?

[Elderberry]

[CornMan]

The reality of the biggest plug and play camps is that they do not generally market to individual customers. The one I know of has just one billionaire client, and he throws an all-star party at that camp who each then pay the required fee. Plug and Ply will step up in addressing the needs of the individuals who otherwise would never feel they have the planning and procurement abilities to create the comfortable resort environment they need in order to make an appearance at Burning Man. It will basically be like an unforgettable Club Med experience on the playa.

[BAK3R]

Damn it, I clicked on this thread because I searched for hookers+blow and all I read was about PNP camps......... back to my search!

[tattoogoddess]

what a dickish attitude presented by OP. If you don't want people to apply for your camp then don't fucking advertise it. If someone has the wrong idea when they do apply, let them know.

Its called helping each other out and just being a decent son of a bitch.

The snooty burner: "We are doing a theme camp and we have placement and everyone should be part of our camp and pay to join us but no you do not simply get to pay and play. You better bring everything you need and pay me so you can camp near me. But I'm not your friend and I don't want to hang out or enjoy burning man with you. I will talk behind your back to everyone else in camp and act like you are in my personal space. Then on the last day you better help tear down, you helped pay for it after all. No we aren't going to help with your tear down, WE are the group, YOU are the individual. FUCK YOUUUUUUUUU for joinging us. FUCK YOUUUUUU for wanting to be part of anything that you aren't already fully embedded in. Next time just donate your money to our camp and stay home because we really just want more money for our own big laser truck (DID YOU SEE OUR LASER TRUCK) and the playa is too crowded anyway."

see what you do to me. make me into an animal. it just aint right.

Did you even look at our Website or read what imposted? We don't have fees.mwe take NO money from anyone. We ask that the donate 2 bottles of vodka and 4 bottles of Bloody Mary mix.

We just don't want people showing up thinking we will give them an rv to stay in and every meal cooked for them. Please re read and take the tampon out of your ass cause you are bitching and moaning about something that did not happen and something that was not even talked about. ASSume much?

[lemur]

Did you even look at our Website or read what imposted? We don't have fees.mwe take NO money from anyone. We ask that the donate 2 bottles of vodka and 4 bottles of Bloody Mary mix.

We just don't want people showing up thinking we will give them an rv to stay in and every meal cooked for them. Please re read and take the tampon out of your ass cause you are bitching and moaning about something that did not happen and something that was not even talked about. ASSume much?

it seemed pretty clear to me that what they posted....... and what most people posted in 90% of this thread.. had nothing to do with one persons specific camp.

[Elderberry]

Yes, I agree. Because we all know that OP stands for "other people".

[lemur]

it seems clear to me that "the snooty burner" is a hypothetical burner.

[delle]

This thread is seriously too much.

Who gives a fuck. A quarter turn and 2 steps in any direction changes EVERYTHING. 'Nuff said.

[Elderberry]

Maybe we should all reach consensus that Plug-n-Play is OK if that's what floats your boat and have lemer put the "approved" stamp on it.

[AntiM]

But someone is wrong on the internets!!!

[lemur]

in the past, when this whole plug and play thing first came out as an accepted official policy (last year around this time).. i spoke out against the whole situation/idea.. but, it was for slightly different reasons than this thread seems to go on about... and i think my tone and opinion on the subject in general has slightly changed.

at the time i was more concerned about people profiting off of the hardworkin burners and stuff they do than preserving any sort of purity of burnerness...though there was a bit of that in there (in terms of acculturating people to the event so theyd not seem like outsiders).. and also how the situation was dealt with by the LLC


this plug and play thread, as, directed by one outspoken person, basically ended up being not much further than the typical 'do burners in RVs suck?' thread..

which is kind of boring..

when this originally got into the zillion page long eplaya plug and play thread i remember the thing that i think most annoyed me was this little bit of their blog post:

We know that such camps (and those who use them) are a varied bunch and they’re here to stay. The challenge, then, is to help these camps integrate into the ways of Burning Man and to positively acculturate their participants.

(emphasis mine) ( source: http://blog.burningman.com/2012/03/tenp ... rock-city/ )

at the time my objection was more about how it felt like it was a unilateral decision that had already been made, with a call to go to the forum and discuss it (after the decision was made).. which seemed yuckie to me.

at this point a year later.. i think it's understandable the LLC can make decisions for their business however they see fit, including not giving a damn about input of their customers, who are loyal and think of it as more of a movement than a festival.. and will by and large show up no matter what..

as for now with plug and play camps? vendors? we're stuck with it, and we either go to burning man or we don't..

at this point my only wish is for the LLC to avoid corporate sponsorship and blatant profiteering with in-your-face advertising that we see at nearly every other festival.....(*cough*KOHLER*cough*) i dont give much of a crap of the purity of the 'burner' ethos at this point.. that thing seems to sort itself out.

even now, after its had time to settle in my head.. the krug thing wasnt really so bad.. as burners (see:customers) we wernt really all dealt a big blow, they built their own set, had their own camp of lackeys and did the most nefarious branding bit off-playa...it mostly impacted the LLC and their wish to control the image of their business (and maybe had something to do with passive aggressive: 'you didnt ask for permission!' bs)

yeah.. when the LLC blesses it people can totally profit off of burning man itself, the image of burning man, images of people and art at burning man and people who buy tickets to burning man: thats how it is...

i think theres more of a problem with the people who dont go to burning man than with those who do... i.e. the people who think its a drug festival... and a bunch of hippies.

i believe that if we are to really do anything to benefit burning man (as a 'social movement' and not a business running a festival) it will be to change that perception in the public (thatll likely never go) of it being a drug fest.

i think the biggest problem that the event (and its 'ethos) faces, as can be seen by the recent lawsuit/legal troubles, is that people think of it and go "OH THATS NOT FOR ME, I WOULD NEVER GO TO THAT SORT OF THING" .....those are the ones we need to convert.

its not the newbies who want to have a flushing toilet, and a shower.. and airconditioning.

if this is really to be a social movement, an experiment in communal living or whatever.. our real concern should be making it seem as welcoming and vanilla to the avg family as it could be, ..because, ya know, like any city.. theres something for everyone.. (the bad, the good.. the ugly).. and like any city.. everyones got a dif expectation of whats 'comfortable'

being accepting of everyone.. even if it means someone profits off of us.. is tough.. but if it means spreading this awesome thing we all love to more and more people each year.. ya know its worth it..... its radical.

[lemur]

oh and..

plug and play camps: if they can make even more people experience how awesome burning man is and maybe change how they feel about life/possibilities/interacting with strangers.. even for a week?!

then i say:

[CornMan]

Although I now embrace plug and plays, I still honor the 10 principles of Burning Man, my whole camp does, and I'd like the BMORG, the placement team in particular, to be aware that we still honor the principles.

[delle]

Why?

Does that get you a prize or something?


Any fucking direction. Two steps.

[Roberto Dobbisano]

Although I now embrace plug and plays, I still honor the 10 principles of Burning Man, my whole camp does, and I'd like the BMORG, the placement team in particular, to be aware that we still honor the principles.

when snark fails, and gets smarmy, we call it Smark.

[5280MeV]

this plug and play thread, as, directed by one outspoken person, basically ended up being not much further than the typical 'do burners in RVs suck?' thread..

which is kind of boring..

Well I agree with that, but this has more to do with the poor definition (or even lack of definition) of what a "turnkey camp" really is. In the same blog post you mention, the way they describe a turnkey camp is something that nearly everyone can relate to on some level, basically if you do anything nice for anyone, or agree on camp dues for something perfectly reasonable, then you must wonder if this applies to you.

In the video, two different camp structures are lumped together as well. One camp has very high dues, arguably to the point of exclusion, and it appears some people that act as a quasi-staff, at least in the sense that the campers felt it would be nice to tip someone at the end of the burn. The other camp was a catering business providing a full service vacation package - like when you charter a yacht.

The way the debate was framed naturally brought out the worst in everyone, even to the point of this thread which begins with some poor stranger's private email being posted on public display as he dared to ask a few honest questions. Not exactly welcoming of the stranger who may not have been a part of these discussions.

But unfair criticism and poorly framed debates are no proof that the product being criticized is any good to begin with.

It isn't a matter of being "burnier" than anyone else, but simply being literate. If you just read the "What is Burning Man" part of the website, then it is pretty obvious that all-inclusive tour packages to Burning Man are preposterous.

i think theres more of a problem with the people who dont go to burning man than with those who do... i.e. the people who think its a drug festival... and a bunch of hippies.

Outside of people watching the 700 club I am not sure that there are many of these people left. Everyone that I know, family, employer, and friends, have been very supportive of me spending time building shit and participating in the whole burn thing. The only criticisms I hear have more to do with disillusionment with the event itself, and these are typically not to serious.

if this is really to be a social movement

There is some sort of uniquely American pathology that prevents people from having a wonderful, even life-changing vacation without seeing the need to transform it into some sort of world-saving social movement.

By some combination of accidents, clever thoughts, and determination, I think that people simply stumbled on a better way to have a festival. We drop social expectations that are not fundamentally necessary for safety over a week long timescale, and we address some of the problems that occur when people get together to have a good time: that of being unable to make their own fun, and that of making a mess. We share and appreciate each other's creativity. Its great!

So we have a template for a better sort of festival and that is that. Anyone who is game for trying it out is welcome to join in.

The full-service tour vendors really don't have anything to do with this. They will show people great parties and stunningly huge artworks littering the desert, they may even provide such structures, but what they are doing is in principle no different than Carnival Cruises. Nothing wrong with going on cruises, but that is not really what I signed up for when I got my first survival guide.

It says "no vending" and I would like to do "no vending". Just because the money changes hands earlier doesn't mean that you are not a service vendor. Sure, ideological purity is insane, and a service vendor must be there to haul out all the poop. But accommodating the basic reality of sanitation needs does not serve as an excuse for anyone to sell anything.

Just because you don't see the wallet come out and the money change hands does not mean the social effect of the transaction is not present.

I won't kick dust in their face but I don't have to approve of these vendors either. I don't think in the long run they will have a positive effect. I don't think it was fair to lump all luxury-ish camps in with them, I don't think that it was a very good debate, and I don't think very good resolutions were reached.

[theCryptofishist]

it seems clear to me that "the snooty burner" is a hypothetical burner.

The sooty burner (and the sooty shearwater) are very real, however.

[Elderberry]

I won't kick dust in their face but I don't have to approve of these vendors either. I don't think in the long run they will have a positive effect. I don't think it was fair to lump all luxury-ish camps in with them, I don't think that it was a very good debate, and I don't think very good resolutions were reached.

You made some valid points and I enjoyed reading your post. However when you come late to the party, it's easy to criticize the debate...after the APPROVED stamp has already been affixed.

[theCryptofishist]

Although I now embrace plug and plays, I still honor the 10 principles of Burning Man, my whole camp does, and I'd like the BMORG, the placement team in particular, to be aware that we still honor the principles.

when snark fails, and gets smarmy, we call it Smark.

I associate the term "smarmy" with upstate NY...

[Simon of the Playa]

you mean WESTERN New York, don't you...


Upstate is where the Clintons Live.

how's that for smarmy.

[5280MeV]

However when you come late to the party, it's easy to criticize the debate...after the APPROVED stamp has already been affixed.

Stupid stamp. Dammit...

Burning Man was better before Lemur rose to become General Secretary of the Party, Chairman of the Commission, and President of Burning Man.

[GreyCoyote]

However when you come late to the party, it's easy to criticize the debate...after the APPROVED stamp has already been affixed.

Stupid stamp. Dammit...

Burning Man was better before Lemur rose to become General Secretary of the Party, Chairman of the Commission, and President of Burning Man.

Ever notice you never see Lemur and Larry in the same place at the same time? Coincidence? I think maybe not...

[Elderberry]

However when you come late to the party, it's easy to criticize the debate...after the APPROVED stamp has already been affixed.

Stupid stamp. Dammit...

Burning Man was better before Lemur rose to become General Secretary of the Party, Chairman of the Commission, and President of Burning Man.

Ever notice you never see Lemur and Larry in the same place at the same time? Coincidence? I think maybe not...

And did you notice their names both begin with "L"?

[GreyCoyote]

And they have 5 letter each!

Lemur. Larry. The mystery deepens.

[theCryptofishist]

you mean WESTERN New York, don't you...


Upstate is where the Clintons Live.

how's that for smarmy.

Erie Coast.

[CornMan]

Why?

Does that get you a prize or something?


Any fucking direction. Two steps.

I'm just making it clear that I am apart from those who have been openly denouncing the principles.

[tattoogoddess]

Oh! A bat outside my window bugging my cat.


Oh never mind it flew away.

Carry on.

[BBadger]

Well this ended up being a pretty good thread.

[tiredofbeingnice]

what a dickish attitude presented by OP. If you don't want people to apply for your camp then don't fucking advertise it. If someone has the wrong idea when they do apply, let them know.

Its called helping each other out and just being a decent son of a bitch.

The snooty burner: "We are doing a theme camp and we have placement and everyone should be part of our camp and pay to join us but no you do not simply get to pay and play. You better bring everything you need and pay me so you can camp near me. But I'm not your friend and I don't want to hang out or enjoy burning man with you. I will talk behind your back to everyone else in camp and act like you are in my personal space. Then on the last day you better help tear down, you helped pay for it after all. No we aren't going to help with your tear down, WE are the group, YOU are the individual. FUCK YOUUUUUUUUU for joinging us. FUCK YOUUUUUU for wanting to be part of anything that you aren't already fully embedded in. Next time just donate your money to our camp and stay home because we really just want more money for our own big laser truck (DID YOU SEE OUR LASER TRUCK) and the playa is too crowded anyway."

see what you do to me. make me into an animal. it just aint right.

Did you even look at our Website or read what imposted? We don't have fees.mwe take NO money from anyone. We ask that the donate 2 bottles of vodka and 4 bottles of Bloody Mary mix.

We just don't want people showing up thinking we will give them an rv to stay in and every meal cooked for them. Please re read and take the tampon out of your ass cause you are bitching and moaning about something that did not happen and something that was not even talked about. ASSume much?

I didn't mean to lump you with the snooty burner. I just meant to call you a dick for posting someones personal email to you on a public forum instead of simply correcting their "mistake" privately.

That whole second paragraph is not directed at anyone in particular. but more of just a rambling assholes interpretation of a random and unnamed camp.

But here is something. How about a human petting zoo. maybe we can dress people up like farm animals get them on all fours and.... pet them.

[BBadger]

But here is something. How about a human petting zoo. maybe we can dress people up like farm animals get them on all fours and.... pet them.

Do we lift up the tails to see what gender the animal is too?