HexaYurts

[Elderberry]

Here's a great post by Canoe showing the force wind has on a Hexayurts of various sizes and why it is important to not skimp on tie-downs and construction materials.
http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... ead#unread

[hellolinds]

Completed the build of 3 six foot stretch yurts this Saturday! They are much more spacious than I imagined from the schematics. Considering we are camping with a group that has a common dome and full-sized yurt, I think it will be more than enough for our purposes. (Sleep/sex/costume change)

Question about semi-folding!! I had printed out the semi-folding diagram from appropedia but we stopped short after a friend with another yurt put doubt in my mind about the ease of set-up on playa.

Here’s the diagram: http://www.appropedia.org/images/8/84/6 ... xayurt.pdf

We made the bottom panels with hinges, and pre-taped the roof trapezoid, but stopped short of completing it to be fully semi-folding.

He noted that it would probably be difficult to get the tape onto such a tall structure, and said that it’s probably easier to put the roof together on the ground, and then put them together and tape the large ring around it after.

Second opinions?

I’m thinking with a step-ladder and paint roller, it can’t be that crazy hard. The 6” tape seems really forgiving! But I’m a virgin, so what do I know?

[lucky420]

I use a tape roller and an extending pole ,works great!

[GreyCoyote]

GreyCoyote have you actually powered two on one 2000w geni at Burning Man? The only reason I ask is that the first year we tried the AC we connected it to a 1200w geni. Even though the AC pulled less than 500 watts, at that elevation it would only run about 3 minutes before it blew the fuse on the geni. Worked just fine when we tested in in Los Angeles.

Yep. They weren't for yurts. It was for a dome. But same difference electrically.

The generator I used was a Honda EU2000i, and it did fine pushing two GE 5K BTU mechanical ACs rated at 10.7 EER. (On sale even, Lowes or Home Depot I think, at the end of the summer for $119/ea!). You had to stagger-start them as mentioned, but once going they did OK.

In another thread I went on a long-winded rant about generator derating and why some gensets derate so rapidly compared to others. If you can find that thread, it will (hopefully) make some better sense.

BTW: Was the 1200 watt unit either a square-looking Coleman or a cheap 2-cycle unit that sounds like an oversized weedwacker? I have had ZERO luck with those things on the playa. (Never took one there myself, but I seem to get tagged with fixing them once I get there).

Anyway. Yeah, it works. At least it did for me.

[Elderberry]

We use a 6" or 8" window squeegee on an extended pole. Works great as well.

[Elderberry]

It was a cheap 2 cycle. It worked great for basic lighting and a fan, just wouldn't run the AC. We have a 10,000 watt geni now. Runs two freezers, refrigerator, AC, shower, lights, and other miscellaneous stuff. We usually run it sun up to sun down and keep it off at night.

[GreyCoyote]

It was a cheap 2 cycle. It worked great for basic lighting and a fan, just wouldn't run the AC. We have a 10,000 watt geni now. Runs two freezers, refrigerator, AC, shower, lights, and other miscellaneous stuff. We usually run it sun up to sun down and keep it off at night.

I think I met that one a couple of times. The surge rating was 1200 watts, and the steady state was 900 watts, but you had to read the fine print to see it. The voltage regulators in these 2-stroke sets are a joke - just a capacitor and a third "Z" winding. When you get near the limit, even during a transient, they collapse the output. Some don't even have a circuit breaker - they just reduce the voltage to limit the current. This causes the AC to switch to the starting winding, grabbing a big slug of current, and the whole wreck starts over again and again. Frequency control is a joke. I only ever saw these work correctly when they were driving incandescent loads. Then, as you found, they work great.

Fortunately you got a big genny now. 10KW makes you the life of the party.

You werent the guy from last year charging his Chevy Volt, were you?

[Elderberry]

No

[bprobst]

Building hexayurt for first time this year. Anybody know how much tape 6" and 3" filament tape is needed for the H15 (10' tall) yurt? Also building evaporative (swamp) cooler and hoping to power with solar and/or battery. Anybody have advice on powering an evaporative cooler (fan and fountain pump)?

[lucky420]

rollls of the 6" tape are 60 yards or 180 feet. Add up all your sides...tada! You will need to order enough so that you pretape all exposed edges before hitting the playa...

You can do the math.

i hate math

[Canoe]

Building hexayurt for first time this year. Anybody know how much tape 6" and 3" filament tape is needed for the H15 (10' tall) yurt?

3" aluminum foil to seal all the edges
check the instructions on the H15 - you want to check the lengths required yourself, to be sure
don't forget tape for making the tie-down attachments

Also building evaporative (swamp) cooler and hoping to power with solar and/or battery. Anybody have advice on powering an evaporative cooler (fan and fountain pump)?

this thread
latest recap starts here
http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... 50#p947515

[tara]

What a great thread this is! My Beloved was thinking of making one this year for us (and I'd love to help) but we are not sure about shipping it all out there.

Does anyone have any tips on shipping?

How much on average does it cost to make a hexayurt?

Sorry if someone answered these questions already, I did not make it through all 33 pages on here yet.

[lucky420]

average cost of each 8x4 panel here in n. nevada is $22 + $264 enough tape from goodbuyguys.com is $180 (that's for about 6 rolls at $30 each)

so figure $450 average

not sure on shipping as I live in n.nv

Yurts are awesome!! little silver houses of coolness

[Ratty]

Why are they so white? So plain? Can't they be painted? Decorated? (I'm not criticizing, just think it's odd).

[Canoe]

The panel has a shiny Radiant Barrier on the outside to reflect heat (and sun) away. Some product has a radiant barrier on the inside too; shiniest to the outside for our playa shelter application.
And it's insulating.
Paint on the outside degrades the reflectance performance to that of the paint, which isn't too bad for sunlight, but significantly degrades the heat reflectance.
(some people take white paint to the playa in case there's a neighbor on one side that is really really bothered by the sun reflection...)

[tara]

average cost of each 8x4 panel here in n. nevada is $22 + $264 enough tape from goodbuyguys.com is $180 (that's for about 6 rolls at $30 each)

so figure $450 average

not sure on shipping as I live in n.nv

Yurts are awesome!! little silver houses of coolness

Thanks for the breakdown lucky420! Much appreciated!

[lucky420]

Ratty » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:49 am

Why are they so white? So plain? Can't they be painted? Decorated? (I'm not criticizing, just think it's odd).

they become dust colored real fast.

i once painted some of my roof panels that show to the outside. I used acrylic based indoor paint that I had. I did this about 2 days before leaving for the playa. When we got to the playa the first day we didnt put up the yurt. It rained that evening. Bright and early the nex morning when setting up the yurt. the tape on the roof wasnt sticking. humidity from the rain and paint...

the panels did dry out but my daughter was quite pissed at me for a bit and i was quite nervous too

[Elderberry]

Why are they so white? So plain? Can't they be painted? Decorated? (I'm not criticizing, just think it's odd).

They can be painted. We actually painted a scene on the front of one of ours. And I recall a camp from NY one year that painted their yurts. They all camped in the outer rings and I came across them by accident.

But, it's a lot of extra work.

[Elderberry]

i once painted some of my roof panels that show to the outside. I used acrylic based indoor paint that I had. I did this about 2 days before leaving for the playa. When we got to the playa the first day we didnt put up the yurt. It rained that evening. Bright and early the nex morning when setting up the yurt. the tape on the roof wasnt sticking. humidity from the rain and paint...

You may already be aware of this, but those panels often have a thin, almost unnoticeable layer of oil on them from the manufacturing process. At the very least, all of the edges need to be thoroughly washed with a mild soap and water. If you are painting the entire panel, this is an important step, along with either priming them or using a paint/primer combo to assure adhesion.

[Elderberry]

The panel has a shiny Radiant Barrier on the outside to reflect heat (and sun) away. Some product has a radiant barrier on the inside too; shiniest to the outside for our playa shelter application.
And it's insulating.
Paint on the outside degrades the reflectance performance to that of the paint, which isn't too bad for sunlight, but significantly degrades the heat reflectance.
(some people take white paint to the playa in case there's a neighbor on one side that is really really bothered by the sun reflection...)

So answer me this. Those panels are used under wood or brick in building a house. Why then wouldn't that covering also degrade the heat reflectance?

[Canoe]

...shiny Radiant Barrier ...
Paint ... degrades the reflectance performance to that of the paint, which isn't too bad for sunlight, but significantly degrades the heat reflectance...

So answer me this. Those panels are used under wood or brick in building a house. Why then wouldn't that covering also degrade the heat reflectance?

If attached to sheathing instead of strapping spacers, then very much so. But that's usually the inside facing surface of the panel, so it doesn't matter much.
Part of the installation spec is to leave an air gap if you want the functionality of a radiant barrier. If the reflective surface is touching anything other than air, that area is degraded to that of a thermal break (which is still worthwhile, just nowhere near as effective as a radiant barrier). So the product gets installed in a number of manners as fairly good rigid insulation with either a thermal break or a radiant barrier. Its placement in the layers of the building envelope will depend on if your geographical area is a dry-to-the-outside, dry-to-the-inside or sealed-both-sides wall zone, and if your main insulation is permeable or impermeable.

It's often installed screwed directly to exterior sheathing (large plastic washers) and the seams (and washers) taped against water and water vapour. You have high thermal conductance through the screws, but the % of area affected is so very small and that path has a thermal break with screw-to-wood, so compared to the area of the entire wall, the amount of heat conducted through the screws is very small. As a near continuous layer of insulating foam is covering the sheathing of a typical stud wall, it is insulating the heat conducting through the studs that otherwise would have been radiated away by the sheathing, so its effect on the heat loss of the wall entire can be considerably more that one would expect from having added just that insulation value. Note the "radiated away" part with emissivity below.

The shiny foil surface can also act as the outer surface against the rain wall (usually house-wrap blocking water flow that makes it through your exterior cladding), with the standard comparatively large air gap before you have your exterior cladding, be it spaced or strapped. When keeping heat out, the shiny radiant barrier will reflect the heat radiating at it from your exterior cladding (brick wall, etc.). When it's keeping heat in, the shiny radiant barrier has difficulty radiating away (emissivity) across the air gap the heat that makes it through the insulating panel. So you can install it on strapping to space it from the sheathing to provide an air gap on both sides (provided you have foil on both sides), but usually the side that matters is the outer side, so that side has shinier high quality foil. Some products the inner side isn't even foil. The shinier the foil the better the light reflectance and the heat reflectance. In standard construction, they only care about the heat reflectance as the surface is NOT your exterior surface. Also, the higher the heat reflectance, the lower the emissivity (how well it will radiant heat). So foil on the inside also means that the heat making it through the panel can conduct heat to the air, but the rate that it radiates heat to the objects inside is greatly reduced. Where the inner side is touching you have conduction and no radiant barrier there, but if an air gap there you get the radiant barrier but have convective air flow. What will work best is very much dependent on the specific application and your geographical zone.

For hexayurts, you've always got the 1" of insulation.
Firstly: The shinier the outside surface, the better it reflects away: solar light, solar heat and radiated heat (heat radiated from heated materials, i.e., sun-heated ground, air, etc.).
And a very distant second: The shinier the inside surface, the slower the heat that gets through the insulation will heat the interior (and the better it reflects heat of the occupants back at them on cool nights), but both are of far less importance the rejecting heat on the outside.
So if you paint a shiny interior, it has minimal consequence. Paint on the outside surface greatly reduces the heat reflectance, even if white, and even if the white roofing paint (elastomeric). Your outside foil's heat reflectance will range from 60% to 80%, depending on how shiny your product is, so if yours is foil both sides, shiniest to the outside for maximum heat rejection. Space blankets and foil-sided bubble-wrap are around 90%. White paint can range from 10% to 20%, so you're absorbing 80% to 90% of the heat that hits it. You still have the 1" insulation and the cooler playa ground inside.

And yes, wiping the dust off of radiant barriers will improve heat rejection through the week.

[Ratty]

Thanks Canoe. Are you a builder or a building inspector? That explains why it would be stupid to paint your little room. Thank you for taking the time and effort. (I have a feeling it was fun for you.)

[burner von braun]

Yes indeed! Thanks for all of the effort and invaluable information both on this thread and elsewhere Canoe!

[Canoe]

...That explains why it would be stupid to paint your little room. ...

Not painting INSIDE is a very distant second. It makes little difference. So little that if you need that edge to be comfortable inside a hexayurt then you've done something else rather wrong. So if you want to paint the INSIDE for your enjoyment, go right ahead. If you're trying to squeeze the most performance out of it, leave it unpainted.

Far more important is not having insulation on the floor in the day so heat can be absorbed by the cooler ground under the hexayurt. And that you're not sleeping on the ground at night, as it will suck the heat out of you. Also, to keep the inside heat in on cool nights (and the forecast is for cool nights this year), you do want insulation on the floor at night.

I used to work for a builder, and we were constantly checking to see that various trades were following the practices they were supposed to. From that, I retained following Building Envelope Science as a hobby, one of many, with an emphasis on energy conservation, comfortable & healthy living and fire safety. So yes, I did enjoy that. Particularly with a product that is so very suitable for the use to which it's put; in this case, the walls & roof of our playa hexayurts.

[hellolinds]

c) Rain or shine you need to tape the tarp on the floor to the sides of the yurt BOTH inside and outside.

JK

The recent rain is making me ponder this point just a little bit more than I had previously.

Taping outside goes against my instincts as this just creates a potential weak spot for water to sneak in and leak down...and then maybe eventually overwhelm the interior tape seam?

Taping the tarp inside protects the interior as long as the tape holds. Am I taping the outside as well to... protect the bottoms of the panels? (But they are already taped?)

Hopeful that the playa is getting rid of all the rain right now, because 3" of rain seems a bit daunting. I guess we can always sleep in the box truck if all else fails.

[maladroit]

Here's a tarp replacement that will suffice for all your playa flooding needs: http://www.wmjmarine.com/50-r-r-8m-a-r- ... Qgodu2wAGA

[big baby jesus]

I can't go this year, so if anyone wants my hexie you can have it. It's in my storage unit in Mogul, just a few minutes east of Reno. You'll need to replace the wall with the a/c and door cutouts and I have an extra sheet at my house in Truckee. This is the third one I've built. It was made out of seconds, which is the way to go. Cost me maybe $50 for 13 sheets of foam. Anyhow, it's yours if you want it.

Just don't be a dick about it and start asking for other stuff in my storage unit, like the last guy...

[Elderberry]

c) Rain or shine you need to tape the tarp on the floor to the sides of the yurt BOTH inside and outside.

JK

The recent rain is making me ponder this point just a little bit more than I had previously.

Taping outside goes against my instincts as this just creates a potential weak spot for water to sneak in and leak down...and then maybe eventually overwhelm the interior tape seam?

Taping the tarp inside protects the interior as long as the tape holds. Am I taping the outside as well to... protect the bottoms of the panels? (But they are already taped?)

Hopeful that the playa is getting rid of all the rain right now, because 3" of rain seems a bit daunting. I guess we can always sleep in the box truck if all else fails.

At first we did this to guard against dust infiltration, but we have had the yurts on playa during the rain and there was no problem with leakage at all from the taping of the tarp. (Though we did find some weaknesses in our taping of the yurts together and the adjoining walls. )

[eLPea]

Anyone here ever experimented with taping the tarp up a bit higher on the walls? Inside or outside?

2010's light storms I only got a few puddles because of the tape gap at the door....but if we get a nice shower like last night's, I don't want to be sleeping on a soggy floor.

[lucky420]

my tarp is taped up about 4-6 inches high all the way around the outside

Unless we set the yurt on it cattywompas, then maybe not as high on one side