case studies

We're doing it wrong...we know
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technopatra
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Post by technopatra » Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:05 pm

Tancorix wrote: What's the difference here between an "attack" via sig line, and an "attack" via post? One violates the TOS and the other doesn't?
The difference is that attackee made a complaint in the first case, and did not in the second.
tancorix wrote:
The statements above basically give WSPR and similar socks free reign to say almost anything and if a 3rd party complains the admins will do nothing? This guts the TOS. It's worthless. All the work put into it means squat.
Rather, they give the community to opportunity to respond or not, they give each directly-involved community member an option for recourse if they don't want to have this kind of interaction. It removes some of the editorial burden from the hands of the few (admins) and places it on the individuals involved. This in addition to the existing option of simply ignoring the threads you don't like.

And, seriously, if we had to remove all the posts that included exchanges that 3rd parties didn't like, we would have to gut half of the existing eplaya.
tancorix wrote: I hope someone reviews these decisions....and gets the courage to enforce the rules with consistency.
Yes, there is an admin review board, which will include an as-yet-to-be-determined, non-Project affiliated member of the Eplaya. The other admins are in place now, but we want to wait until after the event to get a community member involved (too many folks are too busy to have the conversation now). The admin review team will generate a regular report to my manager and case studies will be escalated as needed.

I do appreciate your loyal defense of the people involved in this particular case, however you don't seem to be understanding the most relevant point: Marian isn't making a complaint. She is fully aware of these posts and she doesn't care. She does not want us to act on this and has bigger things to spend her time dealing with.

Heck, when WSPR was at it and I told Larry about it, he just laughed.

It is clear that you do care, Tancorix. I do too. But it's not my personal call. Balancing on the tightrope of moderation, with the benevolent helping hand on one side and censorship on the other is tricky. So many people here do like a serious dust-up that we literally don't have the manpower to go searching, investigating ("did Janie really mean to call Johnny a "clueless fucktard", or were they joking?") and acting on every post that comes across as insulting. If this really were my personal board, it'd be a different story, but I don't make the rules here - you do.

If you want to change them, well that's fine by us. All you need to do is come up with the alternative you want, put it out to the community for feedback, and if there is community support for it, we will happily amend the Community Guidelines.

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Post by technopatra » Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:09 pm

Tancorix wrote:So...there's nothing the admins can do about personal attacks? Let's take a trip down memory lane and over to the Persons Getting Personal thread and Technopatra's response:

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=4638
Creating a consistent message bashing another member of this board is immature, vindictive, and a violation of both the Community Guidelines and the community spirit that they are meant to defend.

Worse still, it pegs you as someone with a narrow agenda for attacking another person, both within and without whatever context there is that inspired it.

BTW, there was no admin action in this case, anyway. I responded to the questions/complaint posed by Bob within the context of the thread, giving an assessment of the situation as I saw it. You chose to change your sig line on your own. I doubt Bob would have pressed with a formal complaint , if you hadn't.

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Post by technopatra » Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:18 pm

Apollonaris Zeus wrote:I agree with Tanx! It's disrespectful of other peoples personal lives and unless it was Larry or Marian that revealed their personal lives or was made to be part of a public issue in the first place lets say a newpaper then the Admin shouldn't allowed to continue as it can be cause to involve Eplaya in a Libel Suit since real name and know personalities are being used. OK, Larry and Marian will not sue themselves but if it was another person or persons using real life names then it could be so.

Please put yourself in the same position. Would you like that kind of slander being said about you. I wouldn't. I'd be more then happy going after all parties involved.
I already have been in this position, and no, I don't liek it at all, but I can't let it bother me - it's different for anyone with even the meager authority I have. People who attack me arent' just going after Nicole the person, but the group and authority I represent. I have to allow folks to express whatever it is they want about Burning Man, it's policies and it's staff (as long as it it not crossposted). I have discussed it with Marian & Larry on different occasions, and generally we agree that in a sense, we are public domain, therefore we can't act against every person who has a beef with us or the Project in general. We would then have to change to rules to say that we can't bash Bush, or any other person of renown, and that would just be wrong.

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Re: the fine line of personal attacks

Post by Sensei » Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:52 am

emily sparkle wrote:...let it die the slow death it should die.
It seems to me that the only reason these WSPR-type-threads die a s - l - o - w death is because we allow it to be a s - l - o - w death. Together, I think we could kill one of these fuckers without ever touching it. When a WSPR-type-attack occurs, I won't hesitate to add to another existing thread in the same forum, with my usual brilliance (or was it genius?), thereby forcing said WSPR-type-thread down - one line. Then I'll find another thread and, you guessed it, more brilliance. Then maybe someone else can get in on it. And so on. In this fashion, a little hot air spread over a few threads could really go a long way towards pushing that moop right off the page. And all the goodest/latest stuff stays on top.

But this takes teamwork. All it takes is one post in said WSPR-type-thread and the whole process must begin again. Notice how newbies don't respond to these type threads? I've noticed. It's the "veterans" who keep that sort of crap visible by responding to said crap. I say let's turn the tables on 'em. If I'm hearin' emily and technopatra correctly, it's our game. Viva Los BlackRock.

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Post by Tancorix » Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:53 am

That strategy is effective as is the Mayo vs Aioli or ketchup vs salsa debates. But it's going to be hard to fill those threads up with content...sure you could type in BUMP! but it's going to piss people off after a while if we keep doing that.

As for the rest of this I'm still mulling it over, TP's response was not what I expected.

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Re: the fine line of personal attacks

Post by technopatra » Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:24 pm

Sensei wrote:
emily sparkle wrote:...let it die the slow death it should die.
It seems to me that the only reason these WSPR-type-threads die a s - l - o - w death is because we allow it to be a s - l - o - w death. Together, I think we could kill one of these fuckers without ever touching it. When a WSPR-type-attack occurs, I won't hesitate to add to another existing thread in the same forum, with my usual brilliance (or was it genius?), thereby forcing said WSPR-type-thread down - one line. Then I'll find another thread and, you guessed it, more brilliance. Then maybe someone else can get in on it. And so on. In this fashion, a little hot air spread over a few threads could really go a long way towards pushing that moop right off the page. And all the goodest/latest stuff stays on top.

But this takes teamwork. All it takes is one post in said WSPR-type-thread and the whole process must begin again. Notice how newbies don't respond to these type threads? I've noticed. It's the "veterans" who keep that sort of crap visible by responding to said crap. I say let's turn the tables on 'em. If I'm hearin' emily and technopatra correctly, it's our game. Viva Los BlackRock.
Astute observations, Sensei. I've frequently asked folks to ignore trolls, but I understand it is hard to let some things pass. Being here has taught me alot about humility, and about taking the long view instead fo reacting in the moment.
And you know what? It kinda sucks! It is really really difficult to not jump to your own defense, or the defense of those folks you love, or to let someone you may personally feel is a complete moron get away without a karmically-appropriate knock upside the head.
I
am an Italo-Jewish Gemini, fer chrissakes! Holding my tongue is not in my genetic/astrologicla makeup. I have to remind myself that it is for the greater good that I don't fly off the handle whenever the mood strikes me, because, yes, it IS your game. Emily & I may be driving, but you guys hold the map, decide the route, and pick out all the truck stops and roadside attactions on the way.

Just give us something to work with.

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Post by Tancorix » Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:31 pm

Just give us something to work with.
I tried. It's called the Terms of Service with a partial breakdown of the violations thereof. Obviously I failed.

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Post by technopatra » Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:37 pm

Tancorix wrote:
Just give us something to work with.
I tried. It's called the Terms of Service with a partial breakdown of the violations thereof. Obviously I failed.
If it really matters to you, then try again.

Ultimately you want to be able to have a post removed if you are offended by its content, regardless of whether you are involved in the discussion itself, right? You (and at least some others, I imagine) feel that this kind of slanderous posting is detrimental to your experience of the eplaya. The current thinking is that if you are not involved, then the post does not affect you and you should ignore it so it'll go away.

You disagree, so give us a new rationale. Help the community understand what exactly it is you that want, why you feel it would be of benefit, and how you wish to execute it. Prepare yourself for differing opinions and hone your argument to win people over rather than alienate them. Help us define the metrics by which you can get what you want - how much agreement is agreement enough to change the rules?

Do we want to add a rating system ala craiglist to mark bad posts for review, and if X number of folks complain we can pull something? Do you want a specific area for discussion of these, with a poll so that anyone who wants to weigh in, can? How do you propose to get what you want?

If you can get community support and come up with a viable solution, then you will not fail.

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Post by DVD Burner » Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:38 am

Jeezzzzuuuusssss.

TP, I give up. I want to work on putting up a plonker in the eplaya staging. This idiot SED is really a pain and I'm really getting tired of his PM's.

I'm posting this so that I have witness to how many days it takes me to setup and get it working for all to see.
(sorry, I just have a pep peeve about people calling me bullshit and witnesses solve that problem.)

Just need a CVS hookup and I'll get started if you and Spanky want or I can/should have a sample setup on my server in a day or 2. let me know either way.
https://www.facebook.com/NeXTCODER

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Post by Tancorix » Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:42 am

I can't offer anything but encouragement but considering my experiences of late on here, having plonk would be as nice as someone gifting me an ice cream sandwich in the middle of the afternoon on the playa. Go DVD go....I hope you can make it happen.

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Post by Isotopia » Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:25 am

Jim Mason's selling of a box truck.

No breaks for old timers with re. commerce I think.

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Post by Tancorix » Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:31 am

I think the "Room for Rent" post is suspect:

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=5474

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Post by technopatra » Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:35 pm

Thanks for the URL, Tancorix, I'm on it.

Badger, can you tell me where Jim Mason's post lives?

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Post by technopatra » Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:48 pm

Ok I found Jim's post, have deleted it and given him a warning.

Ditto with SpecialStephen.

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Post by Tancorix » Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:51 pm

Technopatra, You rock. Smooch! I hope to meet you on the playa.

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Post by technopatra » Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:33 am

Right back atcha, T.

Ok everybody, I'm taking off for the playa tomorrow. Emily will be around for a couple days after that.

So we won't be able to respond to any admin requests for a while. Please try to resolve issues NICELY amongst yourselves. If anything super bad happens we'll just have to clean it up when we get back.

I am camping at Cafe Village, on Earth somewhere between 5:30 and 6. Please feel free to come say hi if you are in the neighborhood. I've got braids this year in purple with a little blond on top pf the black. I'll be in the Cafe for all of setup, so if you get there early, swing on by.

I'm planning on going to the meet n greet but a friend stupidly scheduled her wedding for the same time. It should be short, tho, so hopeful the m'n'g will last a while.

Hope to see you all in meatspace!!

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Post by SilkenTofu » Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:52 am

YAY TP...have fun and please tell it to stop raining before I get there.

Emily, if you are around I don't know if this thread is pushing the limits or if it is coded well enough...but it still makes me nervous

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=5566
I am a bit tied up at the moment...but if you leave your name and number.....

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account suspension notice.

Post by emily sparkle » Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:43 pm

I have deleted the "420 trading and inhaling project" post by digiboo for violating section 7e of the TOS, which states that posting information about illegal activities is an actionable offense.

This eplaya account is being suspended until after the event.
:) emily sparkle
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Post by rodent » Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:06 pm

So... um... why was the (paraphrase) "everytime we camp we have to pay BMORG" thread deleted? I didn't see anything that violated the TOS (any more than the krispy brothal girl post).

I was hoping for some slam dunks there... you gals take all the fun outta debuking rumors...

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Post by rodent » Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:10 pm

Woops, my mistake... was looking under "View posts since last visit"
and not "View your posts". Please disregard my stupidity... we return you now to your regularly scheduled idiocy.

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Commerce Posts Removed

Post by emily sparkle » Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:36 am

Took me a while, but i stumbled across GlowStickMan's advertisement posts in the Regionals, Tickets and Camps sections and removed them.
:) emily sparkle
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Re: Commerce Posts Removed

Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Sat Oct 23, 2004 12:01 pm

emily sparkle wrote:Took me a while, but i stumbled across GlowStickMan's advertisement posts in the Regionals, Tickets and Camps sections and removed them.
Here's an Idea!

create a Pay for Advertisments section where advertisers can post their ads at a cost.

That could offset the costs of running Eplaya and BM.com.

Ads must be approved and serve the community, i.e. jobs, equipment and other items for the playa!

A II Z

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Post by Badger » Sat Oct 23, 2004 12:43 pm

create a Pay for Advertisments section where advertisers can post their ads at a cost.
No.

No commerce.

Get that camel's nose out of this tent NOW!
Desert dogs drink deep.

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Post by technopatra » Tue Oct 26, 2004 9:58 am

Hi guys-

Sorry I've been so busy with other stuff since I got back from the playa, but I should be more attentive to the eplaya now.

First order of business - I'm just starting to catch up on the latest goings on, so there may seem to be a flury of activity as I do.

2nd - ok it's not that bad yet, but I'm seeing some thread drift here. I'll remind everyone that this is meant to be a historical record of issues, responses & reactions, so as the thread drifts we will be merciless about deleting off-topic posts here.

That means even friendly exchanges that are not directly discussing a particular issue, or related topic, will be deleted from this thread.

So please try to stay on topic. as much as I love the satire elsewhere, it's not appropriate for this forum.

Thanks.

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TOS violation

Post by technopatra » Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:02 am

I have just deleted the post "Cotton Mouth??" from the "Experience" thread due to illegal content. The poster, LamplighterDuke, has been suspended for 1 week.

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Post by Rian Jackson » Tue Oct 26, 2004 4:09 pm

Makes good sense to me, Iso.
I s'pose it's just a matter of having multiple facets to the boards so that they can be what they need to be to dofferent people with different needs.

and if it wasn't enough, then hell... what else can you do besides steer it back on-topic?
surlier than thou

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Re: TOS violation

Post by technopatra » Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:05 am

technopatra wrote:I have just deleted the post "Cotton Mouth??" from the "Experience" thread due to illegal content. The poster, LamplighterDuke, has been suspended for 1 week.
I have just reinstated Duke's account, 2 days late.

My public apologies for the delay, Duke. With all the election hoopla I plumb forgot to check my eplaya to-do list.

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split of staff discussion forum topic

Post by technopatra » Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:35 am

I split the posts re: having a moderated discussion area with staff into its own topic. Partly because it's not a case study and partly because it will be easier for me to draw it to the Board's attention this way.

Please continue discussing it in the
Staff/Community Forum Idea thread in Eplaya Feedback folder.

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Post by Tancorix » Sun Nov 28, 2004 1:37 pm

Here's a post that certainly runs afoul of the CG's.

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... 203#109203.

Could one of the admins take a look?

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Post by Tancorix » Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:40 pm

TP, I read your response in the thread in question. Thanks for offering a clarification.

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