What do you hate about the rave scene in BRC?

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:43 pm

I am not in favor of BANNING anything. I just used that as an example. To show how many people ONLY show up for the dance camps, I asked how attendance might be affected if amplified music were banned. A thought exercise is all.

playasnake · Post by **playasnake** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:49 pm

actually you ammended it to Recorded music... so its ok if you only come to only dance to only bands.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:03 pm

What I was trying to do was show it incrementally.

How would attendance be affected without ANY amplified music.

Then wanted to know thoughts on without any RECORDED music to see if anyone thought there would be a difference.

I understand that there are a lot of people that love to produce the kind of entertainment I have been talking about and I don''t mean to imply that they are bad or that the stuff they produce is bad. I am looking at it from a different angle. There is a huge portion of the population that are more or less spectators. Who are they? For the most part they are the "ravers". What do they go there for? The dance camps. The dance camps and the people that operate them are not bad or wrong or anything. They are trying to participate and provide something for the city. The problem is that over time the proliferation of them has attracted an element that simply feeds off them and gives little back. Not only that, they EXPECT the music now and don't really have the appreciation for it that they used to have. Instead of WOW, this is really awesome, I never expected this kind of a setup in the desert ... they not only expect it but damned near DEMAND it and if it wasn't there, half the population would leave or so consensus seemed to have it.

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:07 pm

I appreciate the baccanal of an all night dance party as much as the next person.

What strikes me about the "rave" camps at Burningman is that they turn large number of people into mere consumers. Perhaps the act of dancing at that moment is art, if so, more power to them.

It seems like people, when they get into that state are less willing and able to take care of themselves and not leave lots of MOOP.

When music is thumping at 120 db (or whatever level) it makes personal interaction well-nigh impossible.

Can I offer a solution? No. But I do bring lots of earplugs.

mowgli · Post by **mowgli** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:22 pm

OK. Well like I said i was just curious and geekster does have a point in that the big dance camps do seem to attract spectators. I personally love to dance and i really like electronic music to dance to. It can all be quite a distraction when you mix in some really good drugs. there's nothing like a good fire vortex or giant tesla coil though. I do think that without the clubs there wouldnt be as many girls dancing in their undies at 3 am and i must admit thats art to me. ;<)

i look forward tto seeing all of you next year. Oh, and by the way is 2005 really the 20th anniversary?

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:25 pm

Rob the Wop wrote:What's the one that goes
...THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..

and how does that differ from the one that goes
...THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..
or
...THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..THUD..

???

Personally, I want to find the one that goes: I am a parakeet. . . . I am a firechief. (times lazy eight)

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:29 pm

Imagine there were 50 tesla coils and there was always one going 24x7 for the whole week and people just went from tesla coil to tesla coil their entire time at the event. That doesn't mean tesla coils or the people that build them are bad or wrong, just that there might be too damned many tesla coils and when some double-digit percentage of participants are simply tesla coil spectators and would probably leave the event if tesla coils were banned, it points to something out of balance in the ecosystem.

Q_ · Post by Q_ » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:31 pm

geekster wrote:just that there might be too damned many tesla coils

Can you ever really have too many telsa coils? I need at least 5 to survive the day...

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:33 pm

Yeah, if they ban Megavolt I am so outta here.

playasnake · Post by **playasnake** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:00 pm

blyslv wrote:What strikes me about the "rave" camps at Burningman is that they turn large number of people into mere consumers. Perhaps the act of dancing at that moment is art, if so, more power to them.

you dont see it as participation?

blyslv wrote: It seems like people, when they get into that state are less willing and able to take care of themselves and not leave lots of MOOP.

that does seem to be the case.

blyslv wrote: When music is thumping at 120 db (or whatever level) it makes personal interaction well-nigh impossible.

no way. it renders speech and verbal conversation useless (so do most drugs) but thats a far cry from making personal interaction impossible.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:01 pm

Q_ wrote:
geekster wrote:just that there might be too damned many tesla coils
Can you ever really have too many telsa coils?

A testable hypothesis.

Well that's as much tesla as I wanna do right now.

playasnake · Post by **playasnake** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:04 pm

Q_ wrote:Can you ever really have too many telsa coils? I need at least 5 to survive the day...

i used to think no, until i saw one on fear factor the other day.

i was just channel surfing i swear!

playasnake · Post by **playasnake** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:15 pm

geekster wrote:What I was trying to do was show it incrementally.

How would attendance be affected without ANY amplified music.

Then wanted to know thoughts on without any RECORDED music to see if anyone thought there would be a difference.

(snip....)

The problem is that over time the proliferation of them has attracted an element that simply feeds off them and gives little back. Not only that, they EXPECT the music now and don't really have the appreciation for it that they used to have.

i see better what you were getting at.

i still dont agree though.

i have yet to see proof of A: proliferation (id like to see a comparison of # of sound camps vs population vs newbies) or B: that these evil 'ravers', as a majority, are giving little back.

i also see how you would like some quiet, and as a sound/dance/thumpa-thumpa instigator, im not opposed to this. i think a day or period of quiet would be interesting... though i dont see how that could happen.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:22 pm

There is a huge portion of the population that are more or less spectators. Who are they? For the most part they are the "ravers".

i don't see any evidence to support the second assertion. I am iffy on the first one.

Lets say you banned recorded music. Fine. The people who came to my camp and danced might not be there spectating and mooping. Still, the people next door to me at KSVERT would still be there spectating and mooping just as much. O.K. take out amplified music. Well, we still got center camp. The moop fest.

Me, I like the spectators. I like the folks that wander into my camp, even when there is no music, and just trip out on my animation for awhile. But, as I said before, I am shallow.

I wanna see this assertion that 'ravers' are the bad seeds. I don't buy it.

As far as balance. I hear ya. I think there were fewer 'big rave camps' this year than there were a few years ago. But listen, BM is supposed to be a do-ocracy right? If you want it, you bring it. If more people want it, more people should bring it.

Alpha · Post by **Alpha** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:32 pm

geekster wrote:There is a huge portion of the population that are more or less spectators. Who are they? For the most part they are the "ravers".

Uh, cites? I don't really associate the previously-discussed (and much maligned) "frat boy / yahoo" stereotype with the candy ravers. Besides, very few people are categorized so easily, as Stuart keeps trying to point out. Let me tell you about Frank. Frank is a San Fran transplant from the midwest -- nice guy discovers urban party scene, right out of a Guns 'n Roses video. Most of the week Frank wore fur boots, a fur loin cloth and precious little else (I really don't need to be so familiar with another man's testicles). Frank brought drinks and special cookies for himself and us, but little else. He slept in the common area from roughly 5am - 11am, and he ate our food.

We loved Frank. Why? He was always happy to help whenever someone needed a hand. He was always cheerful and promoted the goals of the camp whenever he could. In short, even though I find little in common with the raver scene I appreciated the time I had with this free spirit. If you want to figure out whom to exclude from the event, you're going to have to look deeper than who dances to what, or what somebody wears.

dman · Post by **dman** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:50 pm

Anecdotal contribution.

In 2003 my campmates brought hundreds of pieces of art to the playa to display/trade/gift. Ceramics, photos, drawings, poems; much was either award winning or commercially successful. Toward the end of the week some of the better pieces, despite being secured well to the display stands, started to wander off, leaving a bad taste in the artists' mouths.

In 2004 my campmates brought dozens of pieces of art to the playa; none of it was displayed publicly. Instead it was shown/traded/gifted on a private basis to kindred spirits met over the course of the week. In addition, we invited new people (mostly relatives) to camp with us; people more interested in the party aspects of the event rather than the community & art aspects. Everyone had a fine time, but apparently the party people did a better job of showing the art people how to party than the art people did showing the party people the community/art aspects of the event, because.....

In 2005 my campmates are planning the biggest, baddest sound camp they can manage to drag out to the playa & set up. "Something like Lush or Nexus Nebula, only better, with our own vibe, where people can chill all day and dance all night.", is their rallying cry.

At first I dismissed their notions as unachievable but, based on a discussion last weekend, it looks like they already have the major items covered (equipment, power, shade, artistic vision), so one or two successful fundraisers and they're on their way.

What of art? "Don't worry Uncle D, we'll still do art; it will just be directed toward the camp rather than standalone pieces to show off. Everything will be just fine and everyone will have a great time. You'll see".

Maybe I will.

co-opt: to neutralize or win over through assimilation into an established group

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:24 pm

I gotta tell ya, I am tempted to fold up my own camp and just do my installation for a big 'rave' camp. As I have said elsewhere, I am shallow.

Alpha · Post by **Alpha** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:44 pm

Careful what you wish for, Stuart. There were so many dance camps this year I think the ratio to dancers went way off the deep end. Lots of them were just empty! That'd be pretty deflating...

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:12 pm

That would suck wouldn't it ... double the number of dance camps, dancers all complaining that their friends were so scattered ... that Burning Man just isn't the same and they aren't going back anymore.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:35 am

I've been following this thread and several others a la "The Decline of BM" fithfully since they appeared. I have a lot of mixed feelings on these subjects and thoughts in my head, perhaps not points or solutions or anything worthwhile but just stuff that I think about and want to bounce around. I will begin this post by saying I have no cites or statistics for anything, only my personal observance and ideas, nor am i representing anything I say as cites or evidence.

I am quite the opposite of "raver" (the stereotype). I am a maorning person. I wake at sunrise and go to bed around 10. I don't do drugs and I consume little alcohol. I detest ebing in large crowds and noisy parties. I don't like glowsticks and I don't dance all night and I don't care for thumpa-thumpa music.

Do I have a place at Burning Man? Am i a "burner" (the stereotype, again)? This is a serious question I have been thinkg about the last few weeks. Sometimes I think yes and sometimes i think no.

I don't think any soltuion lies in banning anything (not saying anyone has suggested that as a serious, viable solution). People who know me know that I am not persoanlly all about "radical inclusion" but even I don't want to see any group or activity banned becuase that reflect on all of our freedom.

I agre that I think there needs to be a change in focus. But not a change in focus "away" from something, i.e., "less focus on rave camps" (for an example.

Dman's post:

In 2005 my campmates are planning the biggest, baddest sound camp they can manage to drag out to the playa & set up. "Something like Lush or Nexus Nebula, only better, with our own vibe, where people can chill all day and dance all night.", is their rallying cry.

really responated with me.

I think an idea for focus would be "contribution." A la participation. I.e., how are you participating and what are you contributing [to the community]? I've always agreed with trey's statement "the best way to contribute to a community is not to ask anything of it"--now I'm thinking we might go one step further, along the lines of "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country."
Dman post made me think this. While I think it's great that his campmates were inspired to do something, is that really the best contribution they can make? Or are they doing it becuase it's "cool"? Are they doing it so they themselves can dance all night? is this their gift?
Another example I've been thinking about a lot os bars. I see so many people just coming out and setting up bars. ghiving away free booze is their gift. So what? What's special about that? Again, there are obviously examples of this being done well, as for some people that is thier talent (I'm thinking bars that went all out with their theme, environment, etc, Black Rock Biergarten comes to mind).
I'm not saying that it's not any of these things--I don't know these campmates. they may be the most incredible dance party throwers in the world and that s where their talents lie and they want to share that. That's cool. All I'm saying is that perhaps attendees, first timers and veterans, think about what is their personal (or group) best way to make a contribution. Is giving out booze really a talent? Is it really "radically expressing" yourself? Or is it just a feeble attempt at participation?

I don't mean to harp on dance camps and bars, but those are the major examples that come to my mind, nothign personal. All I'm saying is that thinking about these types of camps led me to wonder about their proliferance. And that led me to wonder "why the proliference?" And that made me wonder why we do the things we do )loaded question there). So I'm thinking perhaps a large encouragement of "why are you doing/bring to BM whatever it is you are doing/bringing" might be a way to encourage more diversity.

Sorry for my longwindedness, I hope this made some sort of sense. I have a lot of thoughts that I am processing right now.

dman · Post by **dman** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:14 am

Yeah, I hear you, Ivy. In that last post I wasn't trying to make a pro/con comment on the value of another sound camp, only relating the direction my campmates have chosen. But I will now.....

To be honest, their direction saddens me a bit. Not because I object to sound camps or any of the rest of the "party" oriented activities, but because it is a waste of a huge amount of creativity and energy on something that almost certainly, at best, is derivative. I hope they prove me wrong on this; time will tell.

Their talent and energy, if channeled in a different direction, could provide the community with something novel, entertaining & interactive beyond providing essentially what amounts to just another chill space. Not that chill spaces aren't valued; just that IMHO this isn't the highest use of their abilities (I know, I know, we ALL got "doesn't work up to potential" on our report cards, but in this case it's true!).

Still, a bitchin' sound camp is their direction, and I love them, so I will do what I can to help them with power & shade and whatever else is doable.

And I'll keep my fingers crossed that they choose yet another direction for 2006; I could really get behind a large art installation, and they haven't done that yet.

Some of them post here from time to time; maybe they'll throw in their $0.02.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:24 am

that's more like it Ivy.

a 'this is bad, they suck' discussion is not very useful

a 'what is it about this I don't like and how am I going to contribute to make it better for me' is more like it.

playasnake · Post by **playasnake** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:31 am

Alpha wrote:Careful what you wish for, Stuart. There were so many dance camps this year I think the ratio to dancers went way off the deep end. Lots of them were just empty! That'd be pretty deflating...

thats pretty true most years.

and there were less dance camps this year than last year, according to my research. still working on counting previous years.

also, the sound system sizes were on the average smaller than 2003. no basswave marina this year, and sol system only brought out 1/2 of what they did in 03.

MissJele · Post by **MissJele** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:40 am

Ah, so many thoughts go through my head when I read the above, especially what my dear Uncle D has written. And I am a lucky girl to have such a fucking awesome uncle, let me tell you! He has been behind us in every way always. That said, this past year was my first one out to the Playa. I came without any expectations and left a changed person. Most importantly, while I was out there I was able to spend some of the best quality time I have ever had with both my brother, sister and uncle. In this crazy and hectic world that we live in, I don't get to spend nearly as much time as I would like with my family. I stand behind our camp one hundred percent will do whatever is needed to make it better and a more excellent place to be at, chill in, come together with others, and an all around great place for all out in the desert! Personally, I love to dance. I love to dance almost more than anything on earth. And being a single mother here in a big city with a young son, I rarely get to do that. The nights I get to go out and 'shake my groove thang' number less than a dozen a year, which is very hard for me. That was one of the things tthat I loved the most about going out to Burning Man. I was able to find, on any given night, any one of a couple dozen places to dance where the music was just to my liking. I was like a kid in a candy store! It was awesome!! But it was also great to be able to leave the sound camps and go back to our camp, at five and Mercury, and just chill and have some quiet. Well, I take that back...it was never quiet, as we were next to two smaller sized sound camps and one that played bad rock music constantly. That said, I loved our camp. The thing is that we went out there planning on having a lot of interaction with others stopping by throughout the day and night and that just didn't quite pan out. A few of us were new this year, a few of us were a bit sick, and a few of us were just to lazy to handle an inflow of people coming by and interacting with them. There is just so damned much to see out there!! Hearing of a sound camp from some of my campmates made me a bit nervous, as I can envision constant music and and a lot of endless traffic and what about when I need my sleep? And I do need my sleep! But then again, and I profusely apologize for this very long-winded post, but as the saying goes, 'We will sleep when we die' and we plan and organize all year long for merely a week of fesitivities and should take full advantage of the time we are out there! This is another thing I learned this past Burn. My brother is a great DJ, very talented and inspired. He works hard and long on his music and in coming out there with his decks and records, he would be more than giving that to the community. That would be his gift. Yes, he is also a super artist in many ways, but all year long he works on his art in both school and on his own time and seldomly gets to express his talents and creativity in his music. That is what makes him happy and what he wants to share. My sister is also an amazing artist and no doubt will give so much to the community, as she always does in her own way. I will as well, with my clothing and jewelry that I shared with others I met and will share with even more in the upcoming years. We plan on doing some fire spinning, her and I (and hopefully my uncle with his staff!), to a set that my brother plays maybe a couple of times next year. Those are gifts that we will give and know that they will be appreciated and make people happy. When we get tired and need some rest away from the music, we all know people and places that we can go to to chill out away from the more party atmoshpere. There is something out there for everyone and that is one of the most beautiful things about BM. Diversity. Our camp has tried the art thing twice and this next year they will give the sound thing a go. Maybe it will work and maybe the following year they will all want to do something a bit more downsized and (traditional) art related. Either way, I am going to stand behind whatever everyone agrees on doing and work as hard as I can to make our camp one that everyone who comes to leaves happy and has a great time. My only concern is that my uncle might not join be joining us next year. That would break my heart. He, along with my sister, is the heart and soul of our camp and we all love him very much. Shout out to my Uncle DMan!

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:41 am

I found the foot traffic interesting this year. By putting the biggest camps on the esplanade corners, the outskirts of 10 and 2 were pretty well marginalized. I think this, coupled with a more quiet esplanade, really put a damper on the 'rave scene' this year. I found the crowds much more dispersed into the 2nd and 3rd streets. If this was the intent, and there is evidence to support that, it was cleverly done.

MissJele · Post by **MissJele** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:46 am

Lastly, and I totally forgot to say this, a few of us in our camp this next year do plan on doing an installation or two. So we will have something of a sound camp meets art camp meets chill out space meets dance till you drop thing!! I don't know, but I think it is going to fucking ROCK!! And you never know until you try and you only live once!

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:48 am

what's yer camp?

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:00 pm

No persol offense intended, but I am curious:

I don't quite see the congruency of

My brother is a great DJ, very talented and inspired. He works hard and long on his music and in coming out there with his decks and records, he would be more than giving that to the community. That would be his gift. Yes, he is also a super artist in many ways, but all year long he works on his art in both school and on his own time and seldomly gets to express his talents and creativity in his music. That is what makes him happy and what he wants to share. My sister is also an amazing artist and no doubt will give so much to the community, as she always does in her own way. I will as well, with my clothing and jewelry that I shared with others I met and will share with even more in the upcoming years. We plan on doing some fire spinning, her and I (and hopefully my uncle with his staff!), to a set that my brother plays maybe a couple of times next year. Those are gifts that we will give and know that they will be appreciated and make people happy.

and

There is something out there for everyone and that is one of the most beautiful things about BM. Diversity.

I don't see the diversity there. I don't see anything different from what a lof of other people bring: djs/sound camps, gifting away clothing/jewlery, and fire spinning.

I am not saying any of these things are bad nor that you should not do them. By all means, do them if it gives you joy. I guess my thoughts were more aimed toward focusing on the contribution rather than (or, IMNSHO, in addition to) what makes us, as individuals, happy.

An example that springs to my mind is Tabula Rasa. I had a chance to talk with a few of their camp members at LA decom (tm). One of the women told me about her first year and how she gave out hundreds of handmade nead necklaces. Yes, that made people happy and she had a slight interaction with them at the time she gave it to them, but that interaction was fleeting and it's just another necklace.
Her second year, the camp decided that instead of making necklaces and giving them away, they would encourgae people to make their own necklaces at their camp. They brought beads, clasps, wire, tools, string, hemp, etc. People stayed there for hours, visiting them and making necklaces. They taught people how to make different kinds of jewlery. IMO this was much more of a sucess in a myriad of ways. I found their camp very inspiring.

Agin, I'm not saying that sound/jewelry/fire spinning is bad or not to do those things. I'm saying perhaps we should encourage people to look deeper and further. push the boundaries. Be <i>radical</I> in our contributions to the community, not just ourselves.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:02 pm

Ivy wrote: An example that springs to my mind is Tabula Rasa. I had a chance to talk with a few of their camp members at LA decom (tm). One of the women told me about her first year and how she gave out hundreds of handmade nead necklaces. Yes, that made people happy and she had a slight interaction with them at the time she gave it to them, but that interaction was fleeting and it's just another necklace.
Her second year, the camp decided that instead of making necklaces and giving them away, they would encourgae people to make their own necklaces at their camp. They brought beads, clasps, wire, tools, string, hemp, etc. People stayed there for hours, visiting them and making necklaces. They taught people how to make different kinds of jewlery. IMO this was much more of a sucess in a myriad of ways. I found their camp very inspiring.

Thanks Ivy. Sounds like I might want to talk to these people.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:12 pm

Can send you their email if you want or I'm pretty sure they have a web address listed under theme camps. Very nice group of people. Insiring to me.

What do you hate about the rave scene in BRC?

My Two Cents