heavy duity accessible MV?

[ygmir]

I want this art car to be something that doesn't scream utility, and I want the people that have the option to ride other art cars to want to ride this one too and give the people that need it a chance to see from a higher view.

I think that's key, and I'm so glad you're doing this.

I am really glad someone agrees with me, Thank you!

What would you do for when it's time to go potty?

Well, in a case like that Id say we would stop at the potties

a few years ago, I built an accessible MV "Tongue Rider". it had a low platform in front, on castor wheels, and would carry two wheelchairs of any size, at once on the platform, and 4 riders in seats onboard the Mule. Powered by an army "Mule (M274)". I had one individual in mind, but they didn't show up that year....dang. But I was able to give others rides so, it worked out.
I posted pics here somewhere, back then. I don't seem to find them in my folders, but am sure I have them somewhere. Key was it was a low platform, so easy to get the angle of approach for the loading ramps within specs..
I'd not worry a ton about being "OSHA" rated, if you have a lift of any kind, you can make it pretty dang safe. It's Burning Man......things aren't perfect!!. And you know, if anything goes wrong, many will rally to help with whatever situation results.

[Captain Goddammit]

I disagree with the notion of avoiding a bus as a starting platform on the basis of it being what the wheelchair-bound always ride... that depends entirely on how "bus" it still is when you've built it. Most of the large mutant vehicles on the playa were busses. A chassis is just a chassis, you don't have to leave the bus body on it.
The awesome sailing ship "Monaco" we all saw this year (and before) was built on a motorhome chassis (a Monaco motorhome of course!) - it didn't resemble an RV at all.
Does Christina look like a cement mixer? Her running gear is.

That military truck would work great, I'm not arguing against it; just against the idea that a bus necessarily has to look, feel, or even be recognizable as a bus. It doesn't have to be like when Elwood picked up Jake from prison in an old police car!

[Misti]

I agree 100% that a bus would be easier in almost every way, I just want to give a higher view than one can get from a bus, the military truck is one of the highest platforms designed for the weight potential of the passengers that we can get and modify easily.

[Misti]

a few years ago, I built an accessible MV "Tongue Rider". it had a low platform in front, on castor wheels, and would carry two wheelchairs of any size, at once on the platform, and 4 riders in seats onboard the Mule. Powered by an army "Mule (M274)". I had one individual in mind, but they didn't show up that year....dang. But I was able to give others rides so, it worked out.
I posted pics here somewhere, back then. I don't seem to find them in my folders, but am sure I have them somewhere. Key was it was a low platform, so easy to get the angle of approach for the loading ramps within specs..
I'd not worry a ton about being "OSHA" rated, if you have a lift of any kind, you can make it pretty dang safe. It's Burning Man......things aren't perfect!!. And you know, if anything goes wrong, many will rally to help with whatever situation results.

Hey I think I found it http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq27 ... 0_2246.jpg

That was my thought too, after you read your ticket you know there is some risk involved in the event. We can't really figure out safeties until we have a vehicle and lift to look at and find all the pinch points, but I think most of this is avoided by having a kill switch to the lift so unauthorized users can't try to let their buddy jump on while it is moving, or try to use lift to open beer bottle, or (insert other idiotic idea here). Maybe we could have a drunken panel and sit them in front of it and ask where they want to put their hands, rest their beer, park their butt or whatever.

[Savannah]

That was my thought too, after you read your ticket you know there is some risk involved in the event. We can't really figure out safeties until we have a vehicle and lift to look at and find all the pinch points, but I think most of this is avoided by having a kill switch to the lift so unauthorized users can't try to let their buddy jump on while it is moving, or try to use lift to open beer bottle, or (insert other idiotic idea here). Maybe we could have a drunken panel and sit them in front of it and ask where they want to put their hands, rest their beer, park their butt or whatever.

1) Kill switch and 2) a panel of experts are really great ideas!

I saw a girl in 2010 or 2011 who tried to hop on a slow-moving art car and missed--fell really hard on her abdomen, and flayed a lot of skin off. Not deep wounds, but they covered a lot of acreage. She got lucky; it could've been much worse.

[Captain Goddammit]

I have constant trouble with people running up and jumping on or off mine while its moving.
I keep trying to figure out a practical way to eliminate that... so far the only solution has been a "doorman" with a bullhorn, but I can't usually find one who will do the job well.

[Savannah]

I have constant trouble with people running up and jumping on or off mine while its moving.
I keep trying to figure out a practical way to eliminate that... so far the only solution has been a "doorman" with a bullhorn, but I can't usually find one who will do the job well.

I'll gladly take a shift. I'm usually too nervous to ask for MV rides, and this seems like a great way to justify my presence (as well as a capital opportunity to wield a bullhorn).

[Captain Goddammit]

You're hired!

[ygmir]

a few years ago, I built an accessible MV "Tongue Rider". it had a low platform in front, on castor wheels, and would carry two wheelchairs of any size, at once on the platform, and 4 riders in seats onboard the Mule. Powered by an army "Mule (M274)". I had one individual in mind, but they didn't show up that year....dang. But I was able to give others rides so, it worked out.
I posted pics here somewhere, back then. I don't seem to find them in my folders, but am sure I have them somewhere. Key was it was a low platform, so easy to get the angle of approach for the loading ramps within specs..
I'd not worry a ton about being "OSHA" rated, if you have a lift of any kind, you can make it pretty dang safe. It's Burning Man......things aren't perfect!!. And you know, if anything goes wrong, many will rally to help with whatever situation results.

Hey I think I found it http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq27 ... 0_2246.jpg

That was my thought too, after you read your ticket you know there is some risk involved in the event. We can't really figure out safeties until we have a vehicle and lift to look at and find all the pinch points, but I think most of this is avoided by having a kill switch to the lift so unauthorized users can't try to let their buddy jump on while it is moving, or try to use lift to open beer bottle, or (insert other idiotic idea here). Maybe we could have a drunken panel and sit them in front of it and ask where they want to put their hands, rest their beer, park their butt or whatever.

yeah, that's it under construction.

I'd say, do your best for safety, but, make it work. A little risk is fun!!

Cap'n: I have tactical rolls of razor wire, easy to deploy and put back, if ya wanna zip tie some to your boat......just and idea.
That, and Savannah on a bullhorn might just work!

[voiceinthedarkness]

Cattle prod.

[motskyroonmatick]

Misti,

I really like your idea. When I built my mutant vehicle with a lift I made 2 mistakes. 1) It didn't look mutated enough to make DMV very happy even though it was 75% custom built. 2) I put too many obstacles on the deck and eventually there were only a few spots for wheel chairs.

Mutant vehicles need to be radically mutated!!!!!!

I would build the entire passenger area in such a way that it was an open flat deck for good wheeled maneuverability. Have folding chairs that fully ambulatory people can get out and place where they want and then stow when not in use on rack.

A thought occurred to me when I read this thread. Pull a deck over wheels flat bed trailer or a hay trailer with the Military truck.




Then install 2 lifts. One on the back of the trailer and one on the back of the bed of the truck. That way people could board the trailer and then if they wanted to take another lift from the trailer up to the truck bed for a better vantage point. The lifts need a very sturdy place about one foot by four feet to bolt down to but that is not difficult to accomplish. The commercial wheel chair lifts all have a hand pump/release backup incase the power goes out on the vehicle so no worries about power outages. When the lifts deploy to the ground level they stretch way out from the vehicle so there will be a nice reach out away from the trailer and with the correct measuring and trial with a lift you would be able to see if deploying the lift from the truck to the trailer deck would work well. Both lifts if not already equipped could have micro switches installed on the bottom of the lift to interrupt the lowering circuit so that the lifts automatically stop once they encounter the ground or deck. This would save on wear and tear and make operation by the neophyte user easier.

When thinking about mutation I would start with what you want it to look like at night and really go for the lighting effects. Once you have that concept you can flesh out the day time appearance between the led rope and el wire. I think the most effective mutation is a facade attached to the outside of the stock vehicle with lots of light and mural with some 3d elements. Wire frames work well for shapes that are present when illuminated only.

The good Captain Goddammit likes to espouse the greatness of the add on alternator for powering all the 12 volt things. He is much more an expert at that than I but his suggestions in that area make me think..... Possibly one of these simple one wire alternators could be added to the accessory system at the front of the engine. With proper mounting and a longer belt perhaps a 12 volt alternator could be added for the purpose of charging a deep cycle house battery that would run the lifts and some other 12 volt accessories.

Gov Liquidation dot com is a great place to look for military trucks. I believe there is a base near you where they become available from time to time. Definitely do not bid until you have looked at the truck and completely understand what it needs to function normally. You can get a turn key truck from time to time but it seems to me there are allot of starts with jump or does not start/operate auctions. Its good to know what you are getting in to before you bid. Expect to have to do a full service changing of all fluids and lube.

Good luck with this. I like the idea very much and your enthusiasm.

[ygmir]

a good running deuce can be had from 5 to 10 K, sometimes less, private party all checkable.........to me it's questionable buying from GL unless you buy a lot.
Also remember the military trucks are 24V. The M35's come with about a 100 amp super heavy duty alternator..........
that's damn near a medium duty welder!
also a decent compressor, for air operated devices.

I still have some contacts in military vehicles, so, if you look in earnest, I'm happy to help.

[some seeing eye]

Continuing my theme that it takes a village to design, build and maintain on playa...

I was part of a camp which had a bus size MV. My job was walker front and side. It seems illogical, but people will actually jump in front of or try to ride bikes under crushing wheels. The sad loss of a burner a few years back getting off a moving mv and passing to the beyond under the wheels of the trailer behind is something we all think about.

Plan for irrational behav, unlikely in the participants you are trying to serve, but in the 60000 from all over and not in their right mind.

[gyre]

The Purple Palace is on a well known, but not to be named, auction interwebs site.

[Captain Goddammit]

The 24 volt system on a military truck can be side-stepped if you add an extra alternator - just use a 12 volt alternator (or two!) and connect to a separate battery. You don't need a one-wire alternator. Three wire units are extremely easy to hook up and I figure if you can't handle that you're in over your head to build this whole thing anyway.
Mutation could be a big project with that military truck. It's hard to get past DMV with something that resembles a truck. I'm not a spokesperson for the DMV, however vehicles that carry a lot of people are given slightly more lenience and your accommodation for disabled burners I believe is likely to give them a little extra inclination to license you.
The point about keeping clear space in the passenger area is spot-on. Nothing is more useful than clear, empty space, especially if there's gonna be wheel chairs.

So far, all this is adding up to be a very expensive idea.

[gyre]

I'd think a lot of lenience for disabled access.

[Misti]

I promise I am reading all of these posts and getting some great suggestions.... but my grandma just fell on friday and broke her hip, arm and fractured a bone in her back so I have been staying with her all day in the hospital, with her memory going out she panics when she forgets where she is... I hope to have more free time soon to dedicate to planning this as I am really having fun!

Do you think it is too early to email the DMV and ask them for suggestions on what they will require on this one?

Also, what are some ways people come up with funding for big stuff like this?

[gyre]

Do what is important, then get back to it.

You could email anytime, but the more specific your questions are, the more useful the answers are likely to be.

[atomicray]

I promise I am reading all of these posts and getting some great suggestions.... but my grandma just fell on friday and broke her hip, arm and fractured a bone in her back so I have been staying with her all day in the hospital, with her memory going out she panics when she forgets where she is... I hope to have more free time soon to dedicate to planning this as I am really having fun!

Do you think it is too early to email the DMV and ask them for suggestions on what they will require on this one?

Also, what are some ways people come up with funding for big stuff like this?

Of the potential that kickstarter presents...many are just begging for money to fund their vanity projects but as this provides an actual service, the idea of supporting a reduced capacity element, this has merit in my eyes and would be most deserving of kickstarter attention.

So as you are not funding it yourself, hence asking where others fund from , I would consider a kickstarter.

[atomicray]

Forgive the second post. I was reading the BM DMV section regarding issuing MV permits based upon disabilities.

There are some curious restrictions including...

The following vehicles will NOT be licensed:

Vehicles larger than pickup trucks (converted "mobility vans" are acceptable)
Vehicles having multiple levels
Vehicles with trailers
RVs
Motorcycles
ATVs

I mention this because that section deals with a person who is disabled desiring a MV permit to cruise around...the point being that if the rules like above are in place then I suspect that the same would apply to the support of disabled persons.

So if I have read too deeply, the BM DMV does not want MV placing disabled persons above a single level or in a large vehicle.

Might want to confirm this before you get too far along.

[gyre]

Federal law overrides those restrictions.
There were good intentions, but the rules ignore the wide range of disability types that come into play in real life.
That was intended to cover driving safety, not passenger travel.
Note that with a disability permit, someone else may drive for the person with the permit.

The important thing is that anyone driving a vehicle has to be able to handle it safely, and the playa is an immensely demanding environment to drive in.
Many people are not up to the traffic.

[atomicray]

Yes yes...not looking to be a downer...just noting the find.

I am on board with the project!

[Misti]

Forgive the second post. I was reading the BM DMV section regarding issuing MV permits based upon disabilities.

There are some curious restrictions including...

The following vehicles will NOT be licensed:

Vehicles larger than pickup trucks (converted "mobility vans" are acceptable)
Vehicles having multiple levels
Vehicles with trailers
RVs
Motorcycles
ATVs

I mention this because that section deals with a person who is disabled desiring a MV permit to cruise around...the point being that if the rules like above are in place then I suspect that the same would apply to the support of disabled persons.

So if I have read too deeply, the BM DMV does not want MV placing disabled persons above a single level or in a large vehicle.

Might want to confirm this before you get too far along.

I read that too but I was under the impression that it was for personal accessibility vehicles and after reading the two it seemed that this would not fall under the disabled vehicle regulations but the standard MV regulations as the first requires you bring your placard with you when they do the final inspection and I don't have one. I will be emailing them to ask a few questions and I will throw that one in there too just to be sure

From the website:
"If you are interested in bringing a Mutant Vehicle to Black Rock City, see the Mutant Vehicle Licensing and Criteria page.
If you have a disability and need a vehicle to get around Black Rock City, see the Vehicles for People with Disabilities page."

emphasis mine

[some seeing eye]

The vehicle would be licensed as a MV, not as a disabled vehicle. The DMV has bottom line safety criteria required of all MV's. They have quite a bit of flexibility on what they license, so early communication with them by email is a good idea. I would pay special attention to under, around vehicle lighting and your walking safety team with the high ground clearance of the base truck you suggest. As you have seen, it's common to mutate vehicles with pvc pipe and stretch fabric, easily installed on playa arrival.

[Captain Goddammit]

I wasn't suggesting the vehicle could be a disabled-vehicle-permit holder, just suggesting the DMV MAY be a little more inclined to give you your regular MV permit because of it's capability of servicing people confined to a chair.
I have toured people in chairs in my own MV, I have the clear deck space, with enough freeboard to prevent accidents, but my loading system requires four strong guys to lift the whole chair up over the side. However, it can and has done it - but my license has always been based 100% on it's execution as a regular MV.

The potential liability BS (I hate that... ) is what made me think of using a bus chassis that was already equipped with a wheelchair lift if you plan on focusing on disabled access, and then there's the FAR, FAR superior parts availability, regular road-worthiness to get it there, simplicity, cost, ease of driving (depending on age, a lot of those military trucks don't have power steering!) etc.

Motorhome chassis are pretty good things to look at too, you can get one with a leaky-roof water-damaged body really cheap and it will already have an onboard generator and you could even retain the water tanks and fridge etc.

If you're just into military trucks and want one anyway, that trumps everything else and forget everything I'm saying. But if this is only to be a playa MV, then while it is PLENTY stout and up to the task, I hope you realize what you're getting into!

Can you change a flat tire on that thing?

[atomicray]

Ok the basic idea is to get those folks who are regulated to a chair or have limited mobility of some sort up high and under cover/cool for viewing.

I had a thought that may be a bit more viable int eh long run than dealing with lifts...gentle ramp with a winch safety cable...when wanting to bring a chair on board or off board, hook the cable on, and winch away.

Takes a couple minutes but you gain the advantage of a permanent way on and off just in case.

Just a thought

[theCryptofishist]

"Gentle ramp"? Really? ADA is one foot of ramp for every inch of rise. On one of these that's yards and yards of ramp.

(ADA is used as a standard that's already in place.)

[Misti]

"Gentle ramp"? Really? ADA is one foot of ramp for every inch of rise. On one of these that's yards and yards of ramp.

(ADA is used as a standard that's already in place.)

wow, it would be a little over 60 feet

[Jax Dee]

I have nothing useful to add but I wanted to say I think this is such a wonderful idea and I really hope you see your vision come to fruition. I'm not in a wheelchair yet but I definitely have mobility issues and seeing the passion others put into the thought of providing an experience for those of us who might otherwise miss out is so wonderfully inspiring. Thank you!

[trilobyte]

I'm giving this a nudge to the Transportation board, since that's a better fit for project planning and prep questions. To answer the question, yes absolutely there would be interest and demand for such a thing. Good luck with the project, it sounds like a lot of fun and a great opportunity to do something wonderful.