2013 feedback to the BMorg

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Elliot
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2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by Elliot » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:28 pm

:D
If you have constructive ideas for future burns, the Burning Man organizers want to hear them. See here:

http://blog.burningman.com/2013/09/news ... r-feedback

My own suggestion reads as follows:


First of all, Burning Man was wonderful as always. Now, since this is about constructive discussion, here is my main suggestion:

There are far too many ticket-holders who fail to learn, or understand – or lack the will to learn -- the Burning Man principles and ethos. Lookie-loos. Frat boys. Lechers. Tourists of every sort. I feel this threatens the very event. Burning Man is too precious a concept to allow to be diluted. We may be in danger of becoming a victim of our own success (as the phrase goes).

A major step forward was made sort’a accidentally, with the introduction of the Directed Distribution of tickets. Seems to me, this program ought to be expanded. And those who are issued blocks of DD tickets should be coached by the org to mentor the individual ticket recipients – to reinforce the ethos.

I have always felt that “Birgins” ought to coached and mentored by veterans. I certainly was, and I cannot imagine it otherwise. Seems to me, it is simply wrong to sell admission tickets to anyone with a valid bank card.

In fact, I have encountered ticket-holders who actually bragged they had no interest in the Burning Man ethos – while they were tossing cigarette butts on the ground.

Now…. There is a wonderful old saying to the effect that one should not complain unless one can offer a solution. Well, my solution would probably be too draconian to be realistic. But I feel it would be worthwhile to cut the population back to improve the quality of the event. We want to still be here in 20 years, and we want the Burning Man ethos to be a significant force in society by then. The “experimental community” of Black Rock City must not be wasted.

Most cordially,
Elliot Naess
Elliot’s Bicycle Service And Wine Tap

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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by BBadger » Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:19 pm

Elliot wrote:There are far too many ticket-holders who fail to learn, or understand – or lack the will to learn -- the Burning Man principles and ethos. Lookie-loos. Frat boys. Lechers. Tourists of every sort. I feel this threatens the very event. Burning Man is too precious a concept to allow to be diluted. We may be in danger of becoming a victim of our own success (as the phrase goes).
You know what I think will "destroy" the event? It won't be "Lookie-loos". Or RVs. Or Plug-and-Play camps. Or "tourists". Or "spectators." Or frat-boys.

No, what will destroy the event are the reaction of people to perceived threats. Reactions that undermine the true values of the event or place to "protect" against enemies. This is all just fear mongering. "The <insert group name here> are ruining the event."

Yeah, well they haven't.

The only thing different now is that there is ticket scarcity. Now that there is a valuable resource, people want to hoard it for themselves and their friends. That is not how it should be. This event is not for aristocracies and nepotistic privilege. No, it's an open event. We should not be making power grabs under the guise of "preserving ethos."

I also hate these labels, especially the overly abused "tourist", "spectator", and in this case "lookie-loo" labels. You know what? You can't qualify such labels. Not everyone runs a public bike repair camp that is demonstratively "participatory." There are so many invisible ways people have participated in their burn and others'.

Were you there when that "tourist" helped organize the camp months in advanced, only now able to relax the rest of the burn for his work? Were you there when someone crawled Craigslist to find the perfect decoration for their art car? What about the guy watching his or her art project from a distance without taking credit? Is he just a "lookie loo"?

So how do you know? You don't. Nobody can. The whole concept of "participation" is entirely subjective and unprovable. And yet people still use these lame labels to try and prop up their own selves, while demeaning others.

Or are you just going to trust that established camps know best? I don't think they do. "Camps" provide a shell structure from which any person of any line of thinking and action can come from -- including those who don't follow the "ethos" of the event. Even BMorg realizes this, and this is why camps were rated for Directed Distribution (DD) predominantly on their collective impact. This mostly relied on objective standards like MOOP -- but not anything subjective like the individuals in the camp. The DD program rewarded camps that did their part, even if individuals in the camps may have not. That's really all we can ask.
A major step forward was made sorta accidentally, with the introduction of the Directed Distribution of tickets. Seems to me, this program ought to be expanded. And those who are issued blocks of DD tickets should be coached by the org to mentor the individual ticket recipients – to reinforce the ethos.
I'm sorry, but I feel that this suggestion is anathema to the spirit of the event. Established camps should not have a monopoly on Burner culture even if it is supposedly to reinforce certain values. No, the "spirit" of the burn is in its diverse ecosystem given an essentially blank palette. The people in this event represent a sort of evolutionary cycle where new genetic material gets introduced into the system. The degenerate mutations die off, the helpful mutations stay, and the existing system grow stronger.

Now you seek to destroy this environment with this brand of collective narcissism? Now you have camp institutions through which people must subscribe, drawing only the people those camps deem worthy. Now you're creating a monoculture all in the name of "saving the event from itself." This forced cultural stagnation is not what this event needs.

Furthermore, Directed Distribution was never designed or intended to facilitate a nepotistic regime. No matter how camps may be currently and underhandedly abusing the DD program, the program's real purpose is only for ensuring camp cohesion of existing core members. It is not for giving established camps preferential means for attracting new members under their tutelage. If camps are abusing their DD tickets in such a manner, their right to access such tickets should be taken away in the same manner they would if raffled to pay for camp dues.

I can just see what this expansion of DD will end up becoming: a form of indentured servitude, where burgins get "coached" into doing extra work for camps as a form of "participation." I'm sure there will also be "dues" to allow people in the club. The last thing we need is incentives for camps to profit from new arrivals.
I have always felt that "Birgins" ought to coached and mentored by veterans. I certainly was, and I cannot imagine it otherwise. Seems to me, it is simply wrong to sell admission tickets to anyone with a valid bank card.
FUCK coaching.

Burgins don't need veteran burners telling them how to burn. Beyond just pointing people to the info that is already in the guide book, this "coaching" and "guiding" is more about projecting one's own burn insecurities on someone new.

It's arrogant.

It's unnecessary.

It's tainting someone else's burn.

Let the burgins figure it out themselves -- for themselves. It's not hard. Give them a little credit. If they don't get it, they were never cut out for BM in the first place, and they won't return. These problems solve themselves without any interference.

So stop the interference. It just ruins the event.
In fact, I have encountered ticket-holders who actually bragged they had no interest in the Burning Man ethos – while they were tossing cigarette butts on the ground.
Yeah, but so what? He's a one-timer, and could've been brought by anyone -- including "responsible camps." This is an anecdote, not a chronic problem. For every douchebag you encounter, you'll also encounter someone new -- someone uncoached who did get it. You may even see the best in others come from their reaction to the douchebags.

Even these douchebags have their purpose. Without stimuli, people get complacent. Yeah, we wish we didn't have to do fix problems caused by others, but some of the best moments at BM are when people went out of their way to compensate for someone else's actions. It's just another thing what feeds people and pushes them to higher standards, both on playa, and in the rest of the world.

So I hope you bent over and picked up the cigarette butt to throw away, no matter what the guy said. Maybe there was someone watching, and learning.
Now... There is a wonderful old saying to the effect that one should not complain unless one can offer a solution. Well, my solution would probably be too draconian to be realistic. But I feel it would be worthwhile to cut the population back to improve the quality of the event. We want to still be here in 20 years, and we want the Burning Man ethos to be a significant force in society by then. The "experimental community" of Black Rock City must not be wasted.
What is the solution? Let them come -- so that they may learn our ways.

Most people will "get it". Others will not. Practice what you believe in and people will observe and follow.

Whatever happens, the event's demographics should not be determined by established camps, and whomever they choose to invite. Nepotism and elitism is not part of the "ethos" of the event, but quite the opposite.
"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by Simon of the Playa » Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:14 pm

it's a CULT.


and we must TEACH the new Beeetches to wear the Reeeeeebon.




stupid talking meat cake. Get with the not so well hidden social engineering.


[media]
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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by maladroit » Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:20 pm

We must protect the culture of this counter-culture event.

Camps and even playa names will be handed down for generations. The sacred ritual of "Riding this neon tricycle around while on acid" mimicked in solemn accuracy by those who have earned the birthright.

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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by GreyCoyote » Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:11 am

Pssst. Elliot. Over here.

See those spikey black things on the back of the Meatcake? Those are nerves. I think you hit one. :mrgreen:
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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by Elliot » Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:59 am

GreyCoyote wrote: Pssst. Elliot. Over here.

See those spikey black things on the back of the Meatcake? Those are nerves. I think you hit one. :mrgreen:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Hey, BBadger, I appreciate your response. A lot of sound thinking went into that. And as I read it, we are actually not completely opposite on this issue. It seems to be more a case of two schools of thought seeking the same goals -- different fears about the same things.
... Yeah, but so what? He's a one-timer ...
...
...Let the burgins figure it out themselves -- for themselves. It's not hard. Give them a little credit. If they don't get it, they were never cut out for BM in the first place, and they won't return. ...

Likely so. What worries me is that there seems to be a bottomless supply of them -- a fresh bumper crop every year.
... For every douchebag you encounter, you'll also encounter someone new -- someone uncoached who did get it. ...
Absolutely! Tons of them! It's one of the great things about The Event.
... So I hope you bent over and picked up the cigarette butt to throw away, ...
I don't really need to reply to this, do I? :D

Now let me bring up something that I failed to cover in my first post: And for this I have no suggestion at all, short of administering a pass/fail quiz to every ticket applicant -- which is (again) probably not realistic. If only we could get prospective participants to read the information on the web site! That ought to filter out a lot of the folks who are flat not interested in "getting it". But how?

I have more anecdotes about clueless one-timers, but I'll spare you. But how do these people seem to search me out? They come looking to borrow bicycles -- having never even figured out that they ought to bring one. I lost a lot of bikes that way in 2012. (Hence the highly successful reservation system in 2013.)
... What is the solution? Let them come -- so that they may learn our ways.

Most people will "get it". Others will not. Practice what you believe in and people will observe and follow. ...
There is a lot to be said for this. I just wish we could screen out those who simply refuse to observe and learn.

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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by theCryptofishist » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:02 am

Dear fucking gawd...
Write Larry a letter if you must. Posting on the board expecting to be heard by LLC members, or non-profit staff, is pathetic.
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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by GreyCoyote » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:36 pm

I think the notion was to open a discussion, and this has happened rather successfully. Elliot states this was his response to the BMorg, and appended the text of that response after the URL he offered. Badger did a good critique.

Personally, I'm interested in the discussion. Those who are not, are always free to click on to the next thread.
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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by Elderberry » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:43 pm

90% of tickets sold only to returning burners.
10% reserved and sold only to first timers.
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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by Eric » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:54 pm

Elliot wrote:That ought to filter out a lot of the folks who are flat not interested in "getting it".
This is where it all falls apart for me - other than being responsible for yourself and your own shit & picking up after yourself so that the event can continue, there is no all-encompassing "it" to be gotten. There just isn't - no matter how you Burn, you're doing it wrong by someone elses standards. Every single one of us fails the "getting it" test of some other person, just because we don't Burn like them.

All that needs to be hammered into birgins heads is to pick up after themselves, and to not die of their own stupidity. That's it. Everything else is up to their interpretation of "it".
GreyCoyote wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:Dear fucking gawd...
Write Larry a letter if you must. Posting on the board expecting to be heard by LLC members, or non-profit staff, is pathetic.
I think the notion was to open a discussion, and this has happened rather successfully. Elliot states this was his response to the BMorg, and appended the text of that response after the URL he offered. Badger did a good critique.
My understanding as well. Now it's just an eplaya conversation.
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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by Eric » Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:03 pm

jkisha wrote:90% of tickets sold only to returning burners.
10% reserved and sold only to first timers.
Eeeew. Hell no - like I want 90% of the people around me to be people who think they are the only one's who "get it".
I want new blood, and I want lots of it. I am really turned off by the inherent elitism of the "we've been before so we deserve it more than you" crowd. You're basically saying that people who were lucky enough (or old enough) to start going before tickets started selling out are somehow better than those who didn't (or couldn't) come until after 2011. That's just b.s. I can think of plenty of "returning burners" who I would love to never see again, and I've met some of the most amazing birgins. Don't let the anecdotes of the "bad apples" - who could be a returning burner just as easily as a birgin, you don't know without interrogating them - ruin the event for everyone by making all of it some sort of You Have To Know Somebody To Get In VIP camp.

I wonder if people even see that this suggestion is basically asking to turn BMan into a gated community , where we keep out "the riff-raff". :roll:
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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by mudpuppy000 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:36 pm

I went solo my first year, and didn't know a soul on the playa, (for about 10 minutes) and I would never change that experience. I didn't even know anyone that had ever been to burning man. It was like getting picked up off the earth and placed on mars with a bunch of fucking crazy people, and I loved it. I wouldn't change anything about that experience, and especially wouldn't want to be coached/programmed on what I was supposed to do there, or how I was supposed to act.

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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by Simon of the Playa » Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:15 pm

people who were lucky enough (or old enough) to start going before tickets started selling out are somehow better than those who didn't

YOU CANT GET RID OF ME IM LIKE MOLD.


i'll just keep coming back anyway....


and it's kinda like saying shackleton is the same as dora the explorer...





now sit down, shut up, pass the champagne, it's party-diddy time...
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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by Elliot » Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:31 pm

I'm listening -- to the rational responses. :D

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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by Eric » Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:26 pm

Elliot wrote:I'm listening -- to the rational responses. :D
This part was my tl:dr rational response:
Eric wrote:All that needs to be hammered into birgins heads is to pick up after themselves, and to not die of their own stupidity. That's it. Everything else is up to their interpretation of "it".
:D
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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by BBadger » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:54 am

Eric wrote:All that needs to be hammered into birgins heads is to pick up after themselves, and to not die of their own stupidity. That's it. Everything else is up to their interpretation of "it".
^-- This, my friends, is "it." The only "it" in the event.

(note that the below response is not directed to Eric, but to people in general)

We need to dispose of this Burner Busybodyness.

Concentrate on YOUR OWN FUCKING BURN and stop fucking getting into everyone else's.

As long as people aren't breaking the only two cardinal rules "no commerce" and "leave no trace" (the two that the event would get hit for by the BLM), who the fuck cares how other people are "participating" in their own burn? Hell, I don't even care about burner preparedness; that's a self-correcting Darwinism issue.

But fuck your "coaching." Fuck your "guiding." Fuck this "ethos" that is not universal.

They don't need your education. Hey "vet," leave those burgins alone!
Eric wrote:Eeeew. Hell no - like I want 90% of the people around me to be people who think they are the only one's who "get it".
I want new blood, and I want lots of it. I am really turned off by the inherent elitism of the "we've been before so we deserve it more than you" crowd. You're basically saying that people who were lucky enough (or old enough) to start going before tickets started selling out are somehow better than those who didn't (or couldn't) come until after 2011. That's just b.s. I can think of plenty of "returning burners" who I would love to never see again, and I've met some of the most amazing birgins. Don't let the anecdotes of the "bad apples" - who could be a returning burner just as easily as a birgin, you don't know without interrogating them - ruin the event for everyone by making all of it some sort of You Have To Know Somebody To Get In VIP camp.

I wonder if people even see that this suggestion is basically asking to turn BMan into a gated community , where we keep out "the riff-raff". :roll:
^--- And THIS too. Perfectly worded. There's not even anything I can add to this.
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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by gyre » Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:31 am

One person's definition of burning man:

"Burning Man is largely about the music, and he barely even mentions the existence of it.
Dust storms and bad food and uncleanliness are not the attractions, they are things people put up with to hear sets by the world's best DJs in an environment very different from the boring old dance clubs we see them in the rest of the year."

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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by Elliot » Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:44 am

BBadger and Eric:
This is turning out to be very educational for me -- which is a wonderful outcome of any discussion. (Although BBadger's language seems a bit coarse. :roll: )

I still disapprove of lecherous cigarette-butt-tossing bicycle thieves, but perhaps I can learn to tolerate them better. :D

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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by Lonesomebri » Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:03 am

Dust storms and bad food and uncleanliness are not the attractions,
The hell you say!

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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by robbidobbs » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:51 pm

It's ALL about the dirt, Silly!

Thank you Elliot for creating this thread. It successfully reminded me to actually write an email to [email protected] with my suggestions.
I'll be in my blanket fort until further notice.

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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by C187 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:02 pm

robbidobbs wrote:It's ALL about the dirt, Silly!

Thank you Elliot for creating this thread. It successfully reminded me to actually write an email to [email protected] with my suggestions.
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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by moonrise » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:29 pm

Someone will probably copy and mail this thread to Larry.

I was stuck in a hospital during the Big Burn and it'd be great to see Camp Envy get some more help and cameras and what not, to improve the burn for those of us stuck outside of the burn (Thanks 2013 Camp Envy and Rover MV!) I know I'll send CE what help I can for next year.
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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by ygmir » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:35 pm

great thread Elliot!!!
and BBadger, Eric, and Elliot.....my hat is off and I bow in reverence. That was some of the greatest discussion, reasoned responsed, and good advice I've seen in a long time here.
I thank you, and bow humbly, in the presence of such thinkers.

now, fuck off!!!



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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by Savannah » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:51 pm

ygmir wrote:BBadger, Eric, and Elliot.....my hat is off and I bow in reverence. That was some of the greatest discussion, reasoned responsed, and good advice I've seen in a long time here.
I thank you, and bow humbly, in the presence of such thinkers.

now, fuck off!!!



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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by Elliot » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:08 am

Elliot wrote:... (Although BBadger's language seems a bit coarse.)
...
ygmir wrote:...
now, fuck off!!!
...
Et tu, Brutus? :P

As with most discussions where I go out on a limb with my particular narrow-minded form of idealism (a curse from my father), I very much appreciate the input -- which I sometimes even learn from.
Recent consideration has made me think that my concern is really about all participants, not just birgins. There seem to be plenty of "experienced" burners who make mistakes with MOOP, bicycle theft, ogling/lechery/spectating, and so forth.

Now... just a lighthearted thought -- utterly unrealistic.... In GP&E we all wear an ID badge on a lanyard around our necks. First-timers wear a different color lanyard than the rest. I repeat... this is not a serious suggestion for the general population!
Hmmm.... I shouldn't even post that. There will be responses about scarlet letters and such. So for the third time; just a wisecrack for mild amusement, largely at my own expense. :P

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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by BBadger » Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:35 pm

"Tourist", "spectator", "oogler" -- I hate these unqualified labels people use. Let us dispose of these terms to the MOOP pile and concentrate on what we do ourselves, the qualified actions of people (e.g. MOOPing, theft) -- and not waste time on what we judge and ASSume that others are doing to enjoy their burn. "Participation" is supposed to be something that you enjoy and want to do, not something forced on someone unless there's some sort of compensation.
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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by Elliot » Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:49 pm

BBadger, I think I finally understood something. It's the old child psychology thing, isn't it: We don't tell a child "you are stupid". We tell the child "you did something stupid". (Still not the best way, but... the concept.) If that's the idea you have been trying to get thru to me, then I finally "got" it. And I agree. People should not be pigeonholed. "A lecher" should be "an average nice man currently appearing to be engaged in lechery". Am I getting closer?

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Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by gyre » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:15 pm

BBadger wrote: "oogler"
"oogler" ?

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Elliot
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Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:41 pm
Burning Since: 2006

Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by Elliot » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:57 pm

An ogre who commits oodles of ogling.

maladroit
Posts: 2381
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:37 pm
Burning Since: 2012

Re: 2013 feedback to the BMorg

Post by maladroit » Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:21 am

It's pretty sad...they haven't done the math. You can ogle 500 people you find sexually attractive, maybe even take photos to look at later. But that means you've become too corrupt for one person to allow you, nay, WANT you to touch them.

Your bird in a hand is worth 500 photos of a bush.

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