The decline of BurningMan

Hookfoot · Post by **Hookfoot** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:03 pm

This is my first post on the e-playa. I was taught early on in net days to lurk for a while beofre posting and that is exactly what I've been doing. However, I couldn't resist any longer. Pardon me for paraphasing, but it seems that Alpha's position is that if even a few newbies pick up the torch there will be fresh art and he/she has commited to doing so. OTOH, I interpet Geekster's position to be that the newbie influx (50%?) is the problem, not a solution. There have been many, many words written in various threads about the increase of newbies and the resulting degredation of BM.
I am a newbie. I planned to attend in 05, do my art, do my music (acoustic strings) and participate in the experience.

Now, I'm at a crossroads. Do I proceed as planned and endure the wrath of the anti-newbie faction, or should I abandon the entire concept?

From the outside looking in, this is taking on the appearance of a good ole boys club where newbies are not only discouraged, they are downright not welcome.

Of course, this is MY opinion and I take responsibilty for it.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:10 pm

I'm not sure they're saying "newbies are the problem"--I think it's more like the common ignorance of newbies is the problem. Ignorance can't be helped--how do you know you don't know something until you know it? And they are batting around ideas as to how to eliminate that ignorance.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:18 pm

I don't think 50% newbies is a problem other than in the sense that when people are new to something, they did just what you did ... they watch and look at what others are doing and try to fit into the culture. The "problem" is that when half the population is new, you have newbies guiding newbies which isn't BAD, it just isn't optimal either. What our proposal was to do was give them a quick immersion in some other aspects of the culture they might not get from watching their fellow newbies. It is about embracing them and giving them an opportunity to do something the rest of the population might appreciate and sow seeds for future ideas in their minds. Thats all.

Maybe it is because email can't convey tone of voice. I don't HATE sound camps, I don't think newbies are a "PROBLEM". The problem is experianced burners leaving, looking at why, trying to do a small thing in a positive direction and hoping for the best in the future. Some people may have read a little more into some things than I intended. Yeah, we seem to get a lot of newbies that are expecting BM to be a week long dance. Yeah, it can be for some people, its just that in my personal opinion it is that for a way too large portion of the population and nobody has gone out of their way before to show them anything different in a POSITIVE and FUN way.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:41 pm

Hookfoot wrote: Now, I'm at a crossroads. Do I proceed as planned and endure the wrath of the anti-newbie faction, or should I abandon the entire concept?

Well, I am free to imagine that "as planned" included putting something into the community and not be an energy vampire. In which case the answer is F*ck the so called "anti-newbie faction!!!!" BM cannot turn back time and go to the 90s, so embrace teh effing future already!

Hookfoot · Post by **Hookfoot** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:48 pm

[quote="geekster"]

50% newbies is the reason. As that percentage gets higher, it will probably get even worse. Having the experianced burners just leave is really sad, as Iso said. It is bothersome to hear "I am never going back" instead of "There is a problem and we have to figure out some way to make it better". I just wish we could focus on some way to make things better.[/quote]

Did I misunderstand this?

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:07 pm

Hookfoot wrote:
geekster wrote:
50% newbies is the reason. As that percentage gets higher, it will probably get even worse. Having the experianced burners just leave is really sad, as Iso said. It is bothersome to hear "I am never going back" instead of "There is a problem and we have to figure out some way to make it better". I just wish we could focus on some way to make things better.
Did I misunderstand this?

I probably didn't do a good job in communicating.

What I was thinking was that when the percentage of newbies gets above a certain tipping point, it is difficult to maintain the culture because the percentage of people that are unaware of that culture is too high. At 50% newbies, it is very difficult in one week to express burning man to them in any kind of way because there is all this "noise" from the other 50% of the people around them that are unaware of it. At this point you need to take an active role. Passive assimilation doesn't work anymore. You need to round them up and have a little fun with em.

It is easier to "assimilate" new members to a culture when they arrive gradually. Think of immigration. The new members add to our culture but in small doses over a period of time. Now imagine waking up tomorrow and finding 50% of the population of this country just arrived yesterday from China. Things would be different.

Hookfoot · Post by **Hookfoot** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:38 pm

It is certainly not my intention to start any type of flame war here. I am simply trying to gain understanding. I have read the first timers guide, the survival guide, JRS, and posts here and in other places, including long discussions with veteran burner friends of mine. The three tenants that I see being repeated over and over are participation, self-reliance and self-expression. Being old enough to remember the summer of love and learning self-reliance under the all knowing eyes of my Uncle Sam, taking care of myself will not be an issue for me. I loathe energy vampires and avoid them at all costs. I intend to participate in any way I can, embrace the LNT ethos and immerse myself in the experience.

IMHO, the fact that we are culturally diverse as a nation is one of the things that makes it exciting to live here. I live near LA, and it does seem that 50% of the population recently arrived from another country. Things ARE different. What's wrong with different? I was hoping to see that diversity in hyper mode on the playa. It seems to me that the vets here are OK with newbies, but only on their terms. I pride myself on not fitting any one particular mold and I'll be damned if I'm going to start for the sake of BM.

In short, if I take care of the participation and self-reliance issues, I will be entitled to self-expression but only on a probationary basis because I am a newbie.

Sounds a bit sociologically inhibited. This would be my summer vacation as well as an opportunity to express myself both artistically and musically. Above all else, I want to enjoy myself.

Thanks for your input. My inner jury has the case.

d6 · Post by d6 » Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:47 pm

yer only a "newbie" once.
or is my black math all wrong again?

d6,
confusion-bot

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:15 pm

I am not arguing the right or wrong of cultural diversity. The discussion was about long time burners not returning because of a change of the culture in a direction they didn't like.

Nobody ever said that newbies are BAD. As a matter of fact, we plan to have a little activity to CELEBRATE them. Nobody ever implied that cultural diversity was a bad thing or even unwanted or unliked. A SWAMPING of the existing culture seemed to be what people having trouble with.

The people from China thing was a bad analogy so I will try again with another one hopefully less bad. Imagine waking up one day and finding half of your family members, cow-orkers, neighbors and friends gone and replaced with people that not only dont know you but dont know each other either. Not only do they not know that the annual block party is a barbeque, all they want to do is crank the stereo up full blast and dance themselves into a trance obivious to the rest of the community. The old timers that are left might take a "fuck this" attitude and leave. OR ... they could go over to some of the new people and say "Hey! Welcome to the neighborhood! We have a BBQ every year, this is how we do it, come on, lets have some fun!

cowgirl · Post by **cowgirl** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:20 pm

i've loved reading this thread...

just a few points that i have no answers for... so pardon:

as the population grows it seems many people are using BM as their vacation time and are too wiped out to do anything but demand a pina colada at the swim-up bar... and don't realize this isn't the place for it.

and the old-time burners who still go are not overall welcoming to the newbies - or people they think are newbies -

so as for civil war, please don't put it that way b/c the issue is not black and white.

***i love the old-timers, and the loud music, and the pranks... or rather... the humor...***

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:32 pm

don't get all reactionary.

there is no probationary period for self expression. We are all given the initial benefit of the doubt up there.

I think the point being made is sort of the opposite. We want you, as a newbie, to come and do everything and anything you can to add to the whole gig.

cowgirl · Post by **cowgirl** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:36 pm

i wasn't being reactionary... just wanted to put my 2 cents in from 5 years of attendance, participation, and observation...

Zulegoona · Post by **Zulegoona** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:51 pm

Hi Hookfoot,
I'm no expert here, last year was my first and I had a great time, but I know I would have had a better time had I been more aggressive at trying to volunteer. I would have had a better chance to participate with a greater verity of people and would have become more a part of the community more quickly. Even so by Thursday when more of the weekender types started showing up I found myself feeling a little defensive of Black Rock City, It sort of seemed like an invasion of the stereotypical" ugly Americans". I'm rather over stating the feeling of it but the open inviting and engaging feeling of things seemed to slip some, The bond with the mass of people in the community felt a little weakened. I sort of felt like a townie in a tourist area flooded by spectators. The energy level went up in a way with the excitement but it also felt kind of like we as a community were being used, as someone else's entertainment. Kind of like being part of a freak show. I think part of the indoctrination stuff is to answer the negativity of this.

Also even with all the " us and them " talk I think there is a real desire to stop the fragmentation of BM culture, and get people to come together more with others that might not be into the same thing. Every one has something to offer in the cross pollination of ideas, creativity, inspiration, and personal views. This enriching interaction is hindered by single focused factions like the " ravers " often mentioned, but the same could be said for the people who only want to hangout in their own camps and interact only with those in a tight closed group, old timers included.
I don't think anyone really feels New people are a problem individually or even in numbers their wide eyed wow experience keeps people from forgetting how unique Burning Man is. The fear is that such a mass influx of people unfamiliar with the culture as it exists will cause the total loss of the culture that makes Burning Man such a unique experience.

Every thing must change, most people accept that in some cases Burning Man has changed enough or individuals have change enough that the experience no longer has relevance to them. But even those who will no longer attend and those of us who plan to don't want to see the total loss of something wonderful. Evolution is good degradation is bad it can go either way. We are all looking to prevent the later.

clown lover · Post by **clown lover** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:10 pm

Everyone was a newbie at some point. I welcome newbies into my camp. We are the Dark Carnival. We are generally camped around 9:30, on the outskirts of town. Some of my best experiences have been with enthusiastic newbies. We always have plenty of extra costumage, art supplies, and shelter from the elements. Don't shy away because of burnt out oldbies(is that a word?). Burningman is what you make of it.

Hookfoot · Post by **Hookfoot** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:30 pm

Zule and Clown Lover: Thanks for your kind words, observations and invitation.

I don't think I am coming across as defensive, sorry if you are reading it that way Stuart. In order to be defensive, I think it is necessary for one to feel a need to defend someone or something. I sure as hell don't feel as though I need to defend anything. Please go back and re-read the first paragraph of my second post.
However that post and others of yours I've read go a long way toward making my point. There is an anti-newbie/yahoo/raver/frat boy/weekender vibe running through every thread relating to the experience of burning man. Instead of sitting back and pontificating, why don't you do something to educate we newbies? I, for one, would be happy to participate in some kind of reasoned and intelligent discourse regarding what I should know over and above everything I've already mentioned that I've read. I'm way too old to be a frat boy and wasn't into the Greek thing in school, I don't care for house/break/techno/trance but don't I don't have any argument against those who do. If I attend BM05, I'll do it for the entire week. Oh, and in the interest of full disclosure, I own an RV and intend to bring it. I swore off sleeping on the ground after my time in the Uncle Sam Travel Plan. So I guess I also am fodder for the anti-RV crowd.

Geekster, your block party analogy hit the nail on the head for me. I would probably be the first one to show the new neighbors the ropes so to speak. Thank you.

Does anyone think it is incumbent on the veterans to take a more pro-active stance?

Once again, these are my opinions and I take responsibilty for them.

Hookfoot · Post by **Hookfoot** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:33 pm

Correction for Stuart:

I meant to ask you to re-read the FIRST paragraph of my second post, not the second. My apologies.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:38 am

1986 - 20
1987 - 80
1988 - 200
1989 - 300
1990 - 800
1991 - 250
1992 - 600
1993 - 1,000
1994 - 2,000
1995 - 4,000
1996 - 8,000
1997 - 10,000
1998 - 15,000
1999 - 23,000
2000 - 25,400
2001 - 25,659
2002 - 28,979
2003 - 30,586
2004 - 35,511

http://www.burningman.com/whatisburning ... eline.html

Bet it's all those damned newbies back in 1987 that did it in.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:48 am

A little over 50% of the 2003 attendees did not attend 2004. I would guess that nearly 100% of the 1986 attendees were there in 1987.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 9:15 am

that post and others of yours

bullshit

in recent days I have been the flag bearer for soundcamps and 'ravers'

other postings of mine say things like 'the enemy is us'
I also say that barring the gates early won't change a thing.
I don't have problem with noobs, just clueless ones.

I do have an issue with someone who has never been monitoring the eplaya and thinking they get the event and getting into 'the spirit of burning man' discussions. Hell, I have an problem with vets doing that as well.

I may be cranky and argumentative here but don't misstake that for an anti-newbie position that I clearly am not making.

Hookfoot · Post by **Hookfoot** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:54 am

Stuart: Perhaps before ringing the bullshit bell you should carefully re-read what I've said. In my first post, I mentioned lurking before I posted. I've been monitoring the e-playa since well before the 04BM.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to research all of your posts to provide cites. I'm sure you are aware of what you posted and there is no need to remind you.

I think Clapton said it best: "[i]Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself"[/i]

Does anyone care to respond to my request for an e-newbie orientation thread?

d6 · Post by d6 » Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:25 pm

drifting, reiterating back to the decline thread:

IMO (again)
it's not the numbers of vets to newbies, it's the % of attendees who do nothing, contribute nothing, take take take, demanding that anyone and everyone else provide entertainment, shelter,water,food, chemical / nonchemical "enhancements", tag, throw evrything in the sh!tters, transportation, etc.

I got yelled at for driving 5 mph this year, on my way to set-up on the early Saturday. For about a second,It gave me more cause for concern, since this was certainly not at the hands of some newbie, just a self-proclaiming "oldbie" who I now had to stop my supply truck for so I could get out and put a reason to the yelling. I'm not a "let-it-slide" person, or a "c'mon lets-fight" person. I just really really want explanations for actions. Especially if you're a yelling.

digress

I loved my first year, it was what i needed at the time, But It took until 04 for me to have another BRC effort as rewarding as that first year. It took that long for me to finally realize what specifically I had to best offer BRC citizens. All the while I worked, and tried and brought efforts to BRC, 5 years of trials /errors, I suppose.

I can't deny the shift in the rough-sketch outline of attendees, and I even harbored serious doubts as to my return status while there again this year, but this thread has helped me tremendously.

Seriously Good Thread.

"(evryone I know has a big)"
BUT
hasn't there always been flack against the weekenders / gawkers / supposedly uneducated burners /criminal elements -(thieves/daterapers,etc) / slack-jawed yokels / layabouts / ravebots/ burntout hippie molds / my art is better than your arts?

Everyone gets at least one chance, do they not?
So where is the line when you run out of them?
Is it when you interfere with anyone?
Or refuse basic instruction as to why it's bad to throw a carcass in a porta? (see, I just referenced my previous sentence-wow)
I just can't get enough of that personal responsibility thing, regardless of years of life attendance.

d6
blowhard-bot, not particularly impressed by my in-articulate writing.

"life is not what-not, and it's none of your business"

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:34 pm

spectabillis wrote:These posts.... I am starting to feel some vague resemblance of hope.

well that didnt last very long...

dragonfly Jafe · Post by **dragonfly Jafe** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 8:55 am

year population increase % of total
1986 20
1987 80 60 75%
1988 200 120 60%
1989 300 100 33%
1990 800 500 63%
1991 250 -550 -220%
1992 600 350 58%
1993 1000 400 40%
1994 2000 1000 50%
1995 4000 2000 50%
1996 8000 4000 50%
1997 10000 2000 20%
1998 15000 5000 33%
1999 23000 8000 35%
2000 25400 2400 9%
2001 25659 259 1%
2002 28979 3320 11%
2003 30586 1607 5%
2004 35511 4925 14%

We have been here before (greater than 50% of population are "Newbies") - how did we handle this in the mid-90's (I wasn't here yet....)?

Was the "Newbie" situation a problem then? If not, why not? If not, maybe it is not the Newbies, as Stuart is maintaining...

Hookfoot · Post by **Hookfoot** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:23 am

OK Stuart, since you seem to have an issue with my posting here, I’ve started a new topic in the Q&A section. Here’s you big chance to give all of we newbies the benefit of your wisdom. Maybe we can even get the all-coveted “clue.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 1:20 pm

Hookfoot wrote:OK Stuart, since you seem to have an issue with my posting here, I’ve started a new topic in the Q&A section. Here’s you big chance to give all of we newbies the benefit of your wisdom. Maybe we can even get the all-coveted “clue.

I dont think you're going to get it with that tone, you are comming across as wanting to instigate something. Dont know if thats your intention.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 1:22 pm

dragonfly Jafe wrote:We have been here before (greater than 50% of population are "Newbies") - how did we handle this in the mid-90's (I wasn't here yet....)?
Was the "Newbie" situation a problem then? If not, why not? If not, maybe it is not the Newbies, as Stuart is maintaining...

Thanks for breaking into %, I really wish I had a listing of the ticket costs to show overall revenue during each period.

Interesting to know what the % of new people year upon year would be.

And what the hell happened in '91?

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 1:31 pm

I have neither the time nor the inclination to research all of your posts to provide cites.

Code: Select all


that just doesn't cut it.

if you are gonna accuse someone of something you ought to be prepared to back it up. I honestly believe you either have me confused with someone else here or just want to pick a fight with me. I aint a newbie, yahoo, frat-boy, raver, hater.

you don't need to read all 1700+ posts of mine. Just read what I have said in this thread. You've got the wrong guy.

Now, if you are interested in a fight over my positions, you've got the right guy.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 1:34 pm

1991 was the first year in the desert. The following is cut/pasted from a different section of the BM website and describes part of what happened in 1990:

It is a remarkable fact that, during the early years of growth on Baker Beach, not one of organizers or workers who toiled to create the man ever asked what it meant. They had sweated to build it. They had toiled with the weight of it on their shoulders. It felt so fully saturated with their effort and the force of their imagination, that no self-conscious meaning or attributed symbolism seemed necessary. Everyone was a participant, and wholly engrossed in the work. Nor had anyone really noticed, during this same period of time, that an ever-enlarging crowd of spectators had appeared: an anonymous throng with cameras in hand, The people dedicated to creating Burning Man numbered in the dozens, and their well-wishers and friends amounted to several dozen more. But the many hundreds, who now surrounded the statue on that night of June 21, 1990, had invested absolutely nothing in this process. They had come for a spectacle.

As the organizers milled about, irresolute, huddled between the legs of the man, it gradually dawned on them that they possessed no means of speaking to the crowd. No one had ever thought to bring bullhorn. Attempts were made to tell the crowd that the Burning Man, against all expectation, wouldn't burn, but lone voices were drowned out. This anonymous throng of bystanders, charged with emotion, expected a sudden release.

First one and then another voice was raised. "Burn him!" someone shouted, only to be taken up with greater emphasis by someone else: "Burn the FUCKER! Burn the fucker NOW!" Soon entire choruses erupted, as individuals, emboldened by the angry mood, rushed forward, lighters in hand. At its height, someone finally grabbed Larry, clamped both thumbs on his windpipe, and had to be peeled off him.

A flame swallower finally placated the mob, as organizers hastily lowered Burning Man and removed him. But everyone involved was shaken. What had gone wrong? A few weeks later, Larry and Jerry conferred tête-à-tête in a restaurant booth with Michael Michael and John Law, leading lights of the Cacophony Society, and it was decided that a change of venue was in order. Plans were laid to transport the sculpture to the Black Rock Desert during the Labor Day weekend. A space so vast and flat and utterly denuded seemed the perfect place to burn a giant man.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 1:38 pm

[quote="geekster"]1991 was the first year in the desert. The following is cut/pasted from a different section of the BM website and describes part of what happened in 1990:

[quote]

Damn, forgot that.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 1:56 pm

I want to say something on the subject of ravers. I know a lot of people put in a lot of effort to make their camps fun and to provide people with a good time. The dance scene is a part of our culture that is bursting with vitality and provides enjoyment for many. It is a wonderful thing and I think our culture would be severely lacking without it.

What prompted me to write some things I have written is my own perception that there were a lot of people at the event who were there for no other reason than to attend the various dance camps and did very little else during their time there. This perception was reinforced by several blogs I had read.

Newbies in and of themselves aren't a problem. Again, I had the perception that there were many newbies there who were expecting to simply be entertained and were not prepared to give anything back to the city in return. In my opinion, something needs to happen to show the new people that BM isn't an entertainment event. I had no intention of being judgemental about raving itself. It is a really cool thing to do for a lot fo people. I was questioning whether there might simply be too much of it at Burning Man to the extent that it was becoming a big dance party for many people. Just too much of one good thing. And again, I admit that it is based on perception. I have no way to really get any hard numbers.

Most of all, I want to apologize to Stuart if I seemed to imply that I was ungrateful for the effort he put in or that I thought his form of artistic contribution was somehow undesireable. If everyone else put in the amount of time and effort that Stuart and others do, the place would be an even more awesome than it already is.

The decline of BurningMan

a good read...

huh?