The Car Thread

[Captain Goddammit]

going to look at trucks soon. anybody have a feeling about a 2009 Ranger? I don't need to haul anything but camp gear, but need more volume. Shell and top rack a bonus, to my thinking.

I have a little to say about Ford Rangers. First of all, good choice, they are generally good trucks.
I had a full-boat loaded one with the extra-cab, 4 wheel drive, V6 and automatic, air, power everything... and at the same time I had a company pickup that was the exact opposite, a regular-cab, short bed, 4-cylinder 5 speed stick with nothing on it. It turned out I greatly preferred driving the stripped-down little 4 cylinder manual trans truck! The loaded up one felt heavy and sluggish in comparison; the strippo Ranger felt more like my Mazda Miata. It also got a LOT better MPG. The loaded-up one only got something like 14 or so. At that rate you might as well have a "real" truck.

I'd look for a 4-cylinder with the manual trans. Cheap to own, fun to drive, reliable, good little truck.

I don't know if you live where you have snow... I do... and I wouldn't own a 2-wheel drive pickup. They are nose heavy and the WORST possible snow vehicle. But if that's not an issue, the 2WD model drives nicer and gets better MPG.

[gyre]

All my friends in snow country have two wheel drive, to my surprize.
They all counterweight the back end.
Just rear mounting the battery makes more difference than you would expect.

I did that with a front engine roadster, obviously a rear drive to anyone.
Took a few tries to get the balance just right.
Then I went out and raced front wheel drive cars in the snow.
Hilarious fun, and on high performance tires, no snow grip.
They knew I couldn't possibly be getting grip!

I've had good front wheel drive cars, but most of them suck.
Bad engineering, bad differentials, bad cars.

A limited slip would be a huge plus on a truck, or anything, I think.
You will be lucky to find one usually.
Have to add one to most trucks or cars.

[ranger magnum]

A 2wd truck with a locking diff will out perform most 4wd trucks. Eaton amd ARB make good lockers.

[ygmir]

*just walks out of thread........*

[Captain Goddammit]

A 2wd truck with a locking diff will out perform most 4wd trucks. Eaton amd ARB make good lockers.

I hear people say that from time to time and I must politely disagree.
I've got a lot of experience with both. Pickup trucks generally have most (at least 60% if not more) of their weight up front. With a locker in the rear, you are getting power to two wheels, both on the light end.
With four wheel drive and open (non-locking) diffs you are also getting power to at least two wheels but at least one of them is up front where most of the weight and traction is.

In actual practice, I've never seen a 2WD pickup with a rear locker outperform a 4WD pickup except in the case of a well-driven 2WD against a very ineptly driven 4WD. And I've seen a lot, I used to be a tow truck driver.

The nasty side effect of a locking rear end in the snow is the truck wants to go sideways or make unscheduled U-turns! I don't run one just for that reason. Once you apply power and spin both rear wheels, your lateral control is gone and you better be drivin' like Ken Block! Lockers on the street in the snow have a mean habit of making vehicles slide sideways right off the road.
However, they are terrific in mud, gravel, or just backing up a steep driveway in the rain.

[gyre]

Yg, I know you have six wheel drive and tracked vehicles, but you know you would have those if you never left downtown L.A.
I was really thinking of before I met you, if we pretend you're just an average truck consumer.

And there is my friend that has tanks on his flatbed sometimes, or scout cars.
That's not really for snow either.
They use 4wd for mud and rocks here.

Ranger, as well as a rear drive can do, I'd have to disagree that it can match all wheel drive.

My friend used to build pulling tractors before they had a name.
He used to delight in pulling stuck 4wd trucks out with rear drive cars.
But he also built the best offroad jeep for at least a 1000 miles around here, and has done amazing things with it.
All big truck drivetrain and a V8.

[Elliot]

...
Oh yeah, cars lean the wrong way in corners!
...

Except Winged Sprint Cars. The side plates on the wing can make the car lean inward and even wear out the left rear tire first. I probably have pictures of that, but they are buried in old archive boxes with thousands of other slides. So I'll just show me, not going anywhere near fast enough to make much use of the wing. Alas, I never raced -- I just "took a spin around the block" on a couple of occasions. I got paid to do this, which would most likely not have been the case if I had actually raced!

[Mojojita]

I confess to being somewhat of a female gear head. I started racing SCCA about 30 years ago in a Fiat X19. My favorite scent on a man is 30 weight. My most insane affliction is that I love old british sports cars and have too many to keep them running consistently - should probably turn some into planters for petunias. My favorite t-shirt says "Lucas - Prince of Darkness".

I have benefitted educationally somewhat from the pursuit as I can now rebuild SU carbs on my kitchen counter - but had to convince myself that it isn't rocket science.

One day I will off some of the jags and find a clean, straight MGTF.

[ranger magnum]

Try this experiment: take your average open diff 4wd, and get the passenger or driver side two wheels off pavement. Like in mud or snow or ice.

Try to move.

You wont.

Do the same with a locked 2wd truck.

No issues.

And you are totally right about about it not matching awd. But remember, unless you have lockers on both diffs, it is not truly all wheel drive. Most stock 4x4 trucks, when in 4wd mode, are really only 2wd.

[ranger magnum]

Mojo, I love female gearheads! My wife is ASE certified!

I raced ama superbike for a few years, until i got tired of going to the hospital. I joined nasa and scca, and raced spec miata for 3 years. What a blast! Had the economy not tanked, I would be doing it now.

I have had some british stuff, most recently a 67 triumph tt120. Sold it to build my last project car, but still have my. Whitworth wrenches. I too built Amal carbs on the kitchen table.

My Morris Minor was peculiar in that it had both SAE and Whitworth bolts!

[MikeGyver]

I confess to being somewhat of a female gear head. I started racing SCCA about 30 years ago in a Fiat X19. My favorite scent on a man is 30 weight. My most insane affliction is that I love old british sports cars and have too many to keep them running consistently - should probably turn some into planters for petunias. My favorite t-shirt says "Lucas - Prince of Darkness".

I have benefitted educationally somewhat from the pursuit as I can now rebuild SU carbs on my kitchen counter - but had to convince myself that it isn't rocket science.

One day I will off some of the jags and find a clean, straight MGTF.

What kinds of British sports cars do you have? all Ive had are my Tr7 and two Spitfires. I have a preference for classic British sports cars too.

[Captain Goddammit]

I know, the old one-side-on-pavement, one-side-on-ice scenario. But that almost never happens. I've never had that happen.
Try these: rear end in ditch... rear end on icy or snowy spot... front end sinking in mud... these all happen!
I watched a guy stuff a nice pickup into a guard rail heading up a mountain pass. We were going 50-ish on plowed hard-packed snow on a four lane highway. I was in 4-Hi having zero issues, he suddenly went sideways and hit the wall. What happened? His locking rear end in 2 wheel drive got him.
We were applying power because we were going uphill. When I lost a little traction from applying power, I still had directional control. The two wheels he was powering were both rears, when they both slipped under the throttle load, he went sideways and it looked like he did a good job correcting but he could only turn his wheels so far, and the truck was instantly too sideways to get out of it.
And this is a common real world really-happens scenario!
I don't know why I'm even engaging in this conversation... bored I guess... I think I'll go join Ygmir somewhere else lol.

[MikeGyver]

Im on the 4x4 side, yes posi has some advantages over 4x4, but 4x4 has many more. You can always put posi on a 4x4 and solve the issue all together, but people dont do that much.

[gyre]

Mike, why wouldn't you have a limited slip at least on a four wheel drive?

Good points, Capt, which is why I lean to the limited slips.
There's a huge amount of choice in those now and aggressiveness too.
It's all tradeoffs.
I'm actually using a fairly open limited slip on my car.

I've driven a locked axle drag car at power and that was quite exciting, and revelatory.
I value steering and braking over traction to move, and try to remember that in limited traction events.
It's common for people here to get out in the first snow and engage four wheel drive for the first time, take off down the street and promptly plow right off the next corner.
Counterweighting vehicles i find that just barely enough traction in the rear works best, at least if you plan on steering.
We get serious ice here sometimes.

[ygmir]

Try this experiment: take your average open diff 4wd, and get the passenger or driver side two wheels off pavement. Like in mud or snow or ice.

Try to move.

You wont.

apply the emergency brake and it will move. cramping on the brakes, transfers some power to the other wheel in a standard differential. you can also apply the service brake and get some power across the front end.

Do the same with a locked 2wd truck.

No issues.

now turn your 2wd locker 90 degrees and get both rears off the pavement, in the same traction conditions you set above. both spinning, you'll get nowhere, and nothing you can do will send power to the front wheels.


And you are totally right about about it not matching awd. But remember, unless you have lockers on both diffs, it is not truly all wheel drive. Most stock 4x4 trucks, when in 4wd mode, are really only 2wd.

true, but having a foraward and rear wheel driving, is better than just one, or two back. And, imagine lockers front and rear, in many cases, you'd not be able to steer, at all. as Cap'n said regarding "locker/limited slip", you can't keep 'em straight on a side hill, or in really slippery conditions. Yup, on a pretty level, fair to poor traction situation, with enough weight (more than a car battery) in the rear, the locker will do better than the standard rear, for 2wd. but, all things considered, the 4wd, will pull better.

non of this takes into account the high/low range capabilities of the 4x4, and ability to adjust torque to drive wheels and speed, accordingly.

Sure, up a monkey in a tank, and (most) humans in a Hyundai, and the human will go where they want, and better. But, make conditions equal, and you're blowing smoke, IMHO.

[Mojojita]

I confess to being somewhat of a female gear head. I started racing SCCA about 30 years ago in a Fiat X19. My favorite scent on a man is 30 weight. My most insane affliction is that I love old british sports cars and have too many to keep them running consistently - should probably turn some into planters for petunias. My favorite t-shirt says "Lucas - Prince of Darkness".

I have benefitted educationally somewhat from the pursuit as I can now rebuild SU carbs on my kitchen counter - but had to convince myself that it isn't rocket science.

One day I will off some of the jags and find a clean, straight MGTF.

What kinds of British sports cars do you have? all Ive had are my Tr7 and two Spitfires. I have a preference for classic British sports cars too.

Jaguars mostly. Have 2 E types, the best is a series 1.5 roadster (drop head) which is the old body but has the 4.2 liter straight 6. Also have a very nice Hess & Eisenart Jag XJS drop head which has the 12 cylinder aluminum block. But I too love the old Triumphs - have a TR 6 that needs lots of work but still ran when I last parked it. Had to replace the side-draft heads that were put on by a previous owner back to the original. I guess he wanted to run Webers rather than the correct Strombergs. I got it really cheap 'cause he didn't get the conversion right - was kind of a barn find.

I have to admit though that my favorite to drive is my '06 Miata - has the paddle shifters so I call it my Masdarati.

[Mojojita]

Just a brief two cents to the 4x conversation - I had a Subaru wagon when I lived in snow country that got me places lots of Jeeps could not go. I think that if I put chains on it, it would have climbed telephone poles.

[MikeGyver]

I confess to being somewhat of a female gear head. I started racing SCCA about 30 years ago in a Fiat X19. My favorite scent on a man is 30 weight. My most insane affliction is that I love old british sports cars and have too many to keep them running consistently - should probably turn some into planters for petunias. My favorite t-shirt says "Lucas - Prince of Darkness".

I have benefitted educationally somewhat from the pursuit as I can now rebuild SU carbs on my kitchen counter - but had to convince myself that it isn't rocket science.

One day I will off some of the jags and find a clean, straight MGTF.

What kinds of British sports cars do you have? all Ive had are my Tr7 and two Spitfires. I have a preference for classic British sports cars too.

Jaguars mostly. Have 2 E types, the best is a series 1.5 roadster (drop head) which is the old body but has the 4.2 liter straight 6. Also have a very nice Hess & Eisenart Jag XJS drop head which has the 12 cylinder aluminum block. But I too love the old Triumphs - have a TR 6 that needs lots of work but still ran when I last parked it. Had to replace the side-draft heads that were put on by a previous owner back to the original. I guess he wanted to run Webers rather than the correct Strombergs. I got it really cheap 'cause he didn't get the conversion right - was kind of a barn find.

I have to admit though that my favorite to drive is my '06 Miata - has the paddle shifters so I call it my Masdarati.

My dad has always wanted a TR6. I like Jags, but dont have the money for anything like that. Ive never bought a vehicle that cost more than a grand. Maybe someday Ill be able to afford some rarer cars.

[ygmir]

Mojojita:*swoon*.........I've always wanted and XKE. My uncle had one, IIRC late 60's?

[Mojojita]

Yiggy - late 60's would have likely been the series II - with some differences in the look of the front end between that and the series I. I think they had to redesign to meet crash standards so the bumper and headlights are different. Mine is a '66 and was close to the last of the series I. There are though a lot of good reasons there aren't many of them around, no roll bars, no air bags, no power anything - they are beasts to drive and horrendously high maintenance. That said, they are still one of the most beautiful body designs ever.

A friend of mine has a Jag 120 that I drool over.

I wonder what would be the one car the gear heads in this thread would have if money were no object? Mine would probably be one of the new Morgans or a Bugatti Veyron.

[Mojojita]

Mojo, I love female gearheads! My wife is ASE certified!

I raced ama superbike for a few years, until i got tired of going to the hospital. I joined nasa and scca, and raced spec miata for 3 years. What a blast! Had the economy not tanked, I would be doing it now.

I have had some british stuff, most recently a 67 triumph tt120. Sold it to build my last project car, but still have my. Whitworth wrenches. I too built Amal carbs on the kitchen table.

My Morris Minor was peculiar in that it had both SAE and Whitworth bolts!

No no - those aren't wrenches, they're spanners!

[gyre]

Oh yeah, cars lean the wrong way in corners!

Nice Katana.

Is that the hydraulic two wheel drive bike on the track?

[Captain Goddammit]

It's common for people here to get out in the first snow and engage four wheel drive for the first time, take off down the street and promptly plow right off the next corner

Yes! This is where I believe the claims of two wheel drives outperforming four wheel drives in snow situations come from. We've all seen that moron in a 4x4 SUV in the ditch on a snowy day as we drive past in a Toyota Corolla or whatever.
It's the four-wheelers driven by idiots who think that button on the dash makes them invincible that make people think it doesn't work!

I will add the disclaimer that everything I am saying about "posi" differentials applies to driving on the street in snow, which I believe is the most common use of four wheel drive for the average driver.
If you're a mud-slinging, rock crawling, off-road 4-wheeler then you definitely want lockers!

My Trans Am and Miata both have limited slip rear ends. They are a ton of fun when you WANT to throw it sideways!

[ygmir]

another point, and related mostly to the "novice" 4x4 suv in the city first ice, drivers:

they get going, not realizing it's more important to stop! anti lock or no, when you're on ice, stopping, and stopping straight, is a challenge, at best. They get up to speed, with their "traction control" and then think they can stop in semi normal distances......nope.

[Captain Goddammit]

On the subject of Jags, I've always wanted to do a Chevy V8/Jag swap. It's a match made in heaven!
I love the fact that the name of the main company selling pre-made conversion kits for that is "Jaguars That Run"!

[gyre]

Yeah, I was referring to people overdriving for conditions because they have four wheel drive.
Not the fault of the drivetrain at all.

Your tires have the same total grip as on a two wheel drive and you can use that up for steering, stopping or forward motion.
That's the concept of the friction circle.
An active traction design like the audis can max this out, but try to make a T corner at 35 mph on ice and whoosh!

Pickups by design have a suspension that is the opposite of what you need for low traction situations.
That's the bigger problem.
The springs for heavy loads fight the weight shift to the rear that enables a good rear drive design to accelerate and corner better than a neutral design.

We get ice in the south that is much worse than you get on snow, sometimes like glass.
One night it was so bad that I slid off the road sideways while stopped.
Got out and pushed the car sideways by hand back into the center.
Turned around and crawled home.

[Captain Goddammit]

Holy shit! That's pretty wild.

There's a main road heading from the local town area uphill toward the residential area here. It's two lanes each way, up hill with a little curve to it. Every winter when it snows it's a mess with stuck cars, many abandoned in the middle of the road. Last winter I stopped to help a friend I saw who couldn't make it (in a VW "Baja Bug!). I was in my 4x4 crewcab dually GMC. I couldn't get moving again either! I suppose I might have if I kept at it but I was only a few feet from a phone pole on my right side. I got out and put chains on... any of you who saw my truck on the playa this year with all it's sheetmetal still intact know that!

Ice will stop ANY vehicle. Hell I once had to give a pull to a guy with a well-built flat-fender Jeep. He was in an almost level parking space at a gas station, on ice, and couldn't move. Neither of us could believe he was stuck!

[gyre]

Yeah, I actually slid off the crown of the road.
Couldn't stand up either.
I think I pushed against the curb to get enough grip to move the car sideways.
Very little resistance.
That night I slid off the road on several slow corners and just pushed it straight again.

It's very common in Texas to get rain during freezing road conditions.
Once I had an inch or two of ice build up on my car in Dallas.
Went home with friends and came back the next day and it was still covered.
I had to use hot water to cut open the doors and hood, and clear the windows.
They finally moved an event date there, because ice storms are so predictable, Jan 10 or so.

[gyre]

On the subject of Jags, I've always wanted to do a Chevy V8/Jag swap. It's a match made in heaven!
I love the fact that the name of the main company selling pre-made conversion kits for that is "Jaguars That Run"!

I know one of the guys making the conversions.
They seem to work well, but they're made more for when engines fail or someone wants more power.

I know a mechanic that uses a 12 cylinder as a daily driver.
Like most cars, the issues are well known and they are mostly cooling, which is curable with the same approach as any hot rod engine.
Better radiator, ventilation and added fans.
Hot here and he never overheats, which is usually what kills those engines.
He says they're tough when taken care of.

The six doesn't have the heat issues, but it's a big upgrade in power.
There's an XJ6 already converted I know of in a divorce sale, very cheap.
Ex has it, doesn't care sort of thing.

XJSs or the big sedans can use big blocks with no issues, as long as you cool them too.

Volvo 240s are also superb V8 conversions, as they were designed for a V8 originally.
The V8 was pulled when gas prices went up.
You can even put a manual in them easily, 351 and 5 or 6 speed.
Insurance rates do not go up here with a Volvo V8 swap.
I want to do a Bertone V8.
Wildly impractical compared to the wagon, but there you go.
Volvo V8s are often used for towing, and are usually wagons.
Much more common than people realize, as they are usually sleepers.
http://www.hemmings.com/hsx/stories/200 ... ure10.html
http://bringatrailer.com/2010/09/21/con ... lvo-wagon/

[Mojojita]

The conversions are completely understandable in those models that are unlikely to be collectible - I have an old S - Type sedan that could use the Chevy V8 but would be a serious stupid move in anything restorable. The big aluminum blocks are rare now as many of them warped having overheated - which is why I have an extra XJS as a parts car - bought it with the top end stored in the boot.