Philosophy of human civilization

[Elliot]

.
CONFLICTING PHILOSOPHICAL CONCEPTS OF CURRENT HUMAN CIVILIZATION

(This is what I came up with on my morning walk today. Yes, I have "issues". )



Philosophical theory A:

Humanity having evolved to possession of consciousness, it is incumbent on all humans to further civilized society to their best ability.



Philosophical theory Z:

Humanity having passed its peak of civilization and now inevitably deteriorating toward oblivion, no sane human would waste time and energy on furthering anything but themselves.



Discuss.

[ygmir]

we may have been on the same page today Elliot

[Elliot]

We may both need to stop taking morning walks.

[trilobyte]

Incumbent...says who?

[Elliot]

Incumbent...says who?

Philosophical theory A. But perhaps I should have said hypothesis.

[tatonka]

.
CONFLICTING PHILOSOPHICAL CONCEPTS OF CURRENT HUMAN CIVILIZATION

(This is what I came up with on my morning walk today. Yes, I have "issues". )



Philosophical theory A:

Humanity having evolved to possession of consciousness, it is incumbent on all humans to further civilized society to their best ability.



Philosophical theory Z:

Humanity having passed its peak of civilization and now inevitably deteriorating toward oblivion, no sane human would waste time and energy on furthering anything but themselves.



Discuss.

As a youth I would be more for theory Z , now that Im older I would like to believe and try theory A

[Elliot]

As a youth I would be more for theory Z , now that Im older I would like to believe and try theory A

Interesting. I've tried to live A, but now I'm considering Z for the years I have left.

[ygmir]

I guess I'm around "n" nor "o", since my definition and parameters for a "civilized society" are probably off the centrist.........but I do want to further the interests of others, as well.

[trilobyte]

No worries whether it's a theory or a hypothesis, I was just curious as to where the idea of it being incumbent comes from in your theory (or hypothesis). Based on the evidence provided by the seven plus billion current inhabitants and those who've gone before, it doesn't appear to be a part of the evolutionary process.

Mind you, "civilized society" is often interpreted in a fairly subjective and cruel way (see: slavery, also: the holocaust). Some of the worst villains in history thought of themselves as furthering the cause of civilized society, which is why I think it's relevant to ask where the idea of incumbency is coming from. I guess maybe I should have asked 'whose idea of civilized society are we talking about?'

As for theory Z, I like to think that as we're steamrolling our way towards an apocalyptic oblivion, it makes more sense than ever to invest time and energy into thinking of others. Today, society's system of rules and laws affords the "looking out for #1" guy quite a bit of protection and safety. As society breaks down, I think the greedy and villainous become bigger targets.

[Elliot]

We have a high-quality discussion going already! Who's next?

[ygmir]

thing is, I favor probably a more "Spartan" civilization than most. more freedom, at the cost of personal responsibility, self reliance, and "luck". I want to choose what, if any, charity I participate in, I want to make my own house, my own way, without "big brother" telling me where, how, and when (personal responsibility coming into play in that sewage and any direct danger to neighbors are dealt with correctly).
I want to act in society as a persons word is their bond, that all play fair, trust being a basic tenant of all interactions, and, lawsuits only arise from the most egregious of error and disagreement, not as "get rich" ploys.
I like the "do unto others" thing. I like the idea of family and community, where we help where help is needed, not because we are forced, or "somebody should do something" , but because it's our friend or neighbor who is hurting. And to feel it would come back to us, too.
Where corporations are not "people" and board members and officers are held personally responsible for any wrongdoing, even if they are not with the company any more.

*rant off*

[Box Burner]

Many there are who tried to do philosophy A and found themselves beating against a well established wall of philosophy Z. Most eventually succumb and soon become part of the wall.

I have always been in the A camp. Not to say that I have never been swayed by and participated in Z. When I look back on the rise and fall of the human race I see that the only thing that has changed for me is my definition of what civilized society is. I do know that it is not Z.

For my self I have couple of simple steps that I use to see what works. Or at least what I think will work.



1 - The First is a test for a piramys scheme. And it is simple. Imagine that everyone is doing the same thing you are doing. That what you are doing is the ony job that everyone eles is doing and that no one else is doing anything different. Yep, it sounds stupid alright, but it works.

Anyone remember Amway? They were pure and simple a pyramid scheme. Easy to spot too. Their big sell was that the most important thing for you to do was to build a sales network underneath you. This was more important that selling product(soap). Of course if you were a good Amway rep you always bought amway products yourself. And got a few freinds and family to buy it from youas well. The end result was that the market eventually got saturated with people building sales networks, but not selling much soap. And then with those who found out that there was no-one left who would buy into it. And finally with people who wanted nothing to do with it because they knew, either from experience or they were told by someone else that it was a scam. At one point amway's instructions were that you should not tell prospects that it was amway until after you had pitched them with how much they could make and how easy it was. You would event tell them it was free. And then make them purchase a $20 sample package.


So to apply the test. If everyone sold amway products, who would make the soap? Who would but the soap, and who would even care? You cannot buy what is not being made but more importantly you cannot eat soap. Even if it is being made. Clearly selling soap and building a sales networ is a non job.


Right, you say. this is stupid. not everyone is going to try to sell soap. True. And here is the 2nd part of the test.


Reduce it to it's lowest common denominator. Everything can be resolved mathematically. (I would venture to say that all prophesy is mathematical in nature as well.) You cannot easily see what is happening or what works for 5 billion people. But it is easy to tell with a small group.


For example.

One or two people - Pretty much live hand to mouth and are subject to weather and seasonal changes and may have periods when they go hungry. Taking what shelter is available or making simple disposable shelters.


A small group, maybe 10 to 50. - Now they are able to divide tasks when needed and with co-operation can produce more and even have some extra to get through hard times.

a village 100 to 250. Now able to have people devoted to specialized skils. Enabling those who produce the basic needs to increase their yield to the extent that they may often have a signifiacnt excess which they can trade with other villages. they may even be able to have a dedicated trader (salesman).


If you follow the progession you will add more specialized trades and improved processes and government. Eventually you get to the point where you can have luxuries.

It is at, or aroud the point where you become a village that you have something truly unique. A non producer. The salesman. Add to that government(kings, queens, presidents and polititions)and soldiers who support them and not y0u.

More Later. I am losing my computer access for the evening and possibly the week.

Edit:
I know. there are a lot who are in sales and some who are in government. And this will probably piss you off. Just bear with me a little.

[tatonka]

Seeing a Birds nest with youngens in it, and one will push the other out of the nest ,so he alone survive's is how I saw life as a kid . Everywhere we lived there was a pecking order. At 5 we moved to Minneaplois MInn. we lived on the 18th floor of a apt building in hte heart of town (getto ) I had just come from a
little farm in Wis. . So I was robbed everyday by 2 bigger kids for my .5 milk money on the way to school everyday , then at 6 tortured by a dentist who said I didnt need novicanie and slapped me silly till i was numb and finished his drilling
My Father and his brothers went to his office and broke his arms , so my vengance is satifiied.
Finally at High School im 15 and about 120lbs and this senior and his buddies surrounded me at my lunch table , he is saying "Bird turd" over and over again
he is much bigger than me , but I snap and throw my spagetti plate in his face . He jumps up ,and im up already ,and I kick him in the balls , and he goes down
and I drop kick him in the face . Blood exploded everywhere , he got up and charged me , we went back up against the wall ,and then a bunch of teachers broke it up. No one teased me ever again .
I then joined the army and was at the fall of saigon as a military policeman guarding our last 3 planes at the airfield , the south veitnam army dropped there
weapons ,and charged the plane . They didnt want to be left behind as you could hear the bombs in the distance . They pushed women and children out of the way, and we busted there heads , one guy who i hit , his head burst open and he dropped into the crowd and i never seen him again . I see his face still , he was scared as I was .
After the service I was going to be a cop , but it wasnt for me . So I had a family ,and a Boxing career , did it for 6 years and then taught for a few . I found that andrealin helped me with alot of problems . Hunted , played paintball , race dirt bikes , and now the last 15 years been motorcyle riding across the west
and seeing the country . When I was 50 the doc said I has 2 years to live , so I said cut away . Now im here 8 years later and dont need the big rush anymore but the BM experience was a over welming feeling of peace. I have for the last 3 years have gone to the Oregon country fair ,and I get that same feeling there also.
I have been in so many weird places ,and most you get the "feeling" to be on your guard , these events do not instill that in me. As helping society ,well I still have only been trying to improve myself, and my family . But I found if I give smiles to everyone , I get them back ,and it feels great.
thanks all ")

[ygmir]

Seeing a Birds nest with youngens in it, and one will push the other out of the nest ,so he alone survive's is how I saw life as a kid . Everywhere we lived there was a pecking order. At 5 we moved to Minneaplois MInn. we lived on the 18th floor of a apt building in hte heart of town (getto ) I had just come from a
little farm in Wis. . So I was robbed everyday by 2 bigger kids for my .5 milk money on the way to school everyday , then at 6 tortured by a dentist who said I didnt need novicanie and slapped me silly till i was numb and finished his drilling
My Father and his brothers went to his office and broke his arms , so my vengance is satifiied.
Finally at High School im 15 and about 120lbs and this senior and his buddies surrounded me at my lunch table , he is saying "Bird turd" over and over again
he is much bigger than me , but I snap and throw my spagetti plate in his face . He jumps up ,and im up already ,and I kick him in the balls , and he goes down
and I drop kick him in the face . Blood exploded everywhere , he got up and charged me , we went back up against the wall ,and then a bunch of teachers broke it up. No one teased me ever again .
I then joined the army and was at the fall of saigon as a military policeman guarding our last 3 planes at the airfield , the south veitnam army dropped there
weapons ,and charged the plane . They didnt want to be left behind as you could hear the bombs in the distance . They pushed women and children out of the way, and we busted there heads , one guy who i hit , his head burst open and he dropped into the crowd and i never seen him again . I see his face still , he was scared as I was .
After the service I was going to be a cop , but it wasnt for me . So I had a family ,and a Boxing career , did it for 6 years and then taught for a few . I found that andrealin helped me with alot of problems . Hunted , played paintball , race dirt bikes , and now the last 15 years been motorcyle riding across the west
and seeing the country . When I was 50 the doc said I has 2 years to live , so I said cut away . Now im here 8 years later and dont need the big rush anymore but the BM experience was a over welming feeling of peace. I have for the last 3 years have gone to the Oregon country fair ,and I get that same feeling there also.
I have been in so many weird places ,and most you get the "feeling" to be on your guard , these events do not instill that in me. As helping society ,well I still have only been trying to improve myself, and my family . But I found if I give smiles to everyone , I get them back ,and it feels great.
thanks all ")

I had the same dentist.......except he strapped me in the chair, and straddled my legs to hold them, while the nurse would hold my head back in the "rest" with a towel across my forehead, and , as you say, yell to hold still, for all the same procedures. My parents either didn't know, or care, so it went on until I was 7 or 8 ............I still cringe in the dental office.

but aside from that, thanks for sharing your story........very interesting, and I'd say I'm glad you found "us"........not in the ego sense, but because of your life experience, I'm sure you have lots to offer, and hopefully, we have something to share with you, too.

[FossaFerox]

Getting back to the original question, I feel this can be encapsulated in a neat little microcosm that actually happened, and it's one I ponder any time I consider questions like this.

The setting is St. Matthew's Island. It's a tiny little island in the Bering Sea off the coast of Alaska. It's relevant because the United States had a Coast Guard station there starting during World War II, and fearing what would happen if the station were cut off from supply lines reindeer were introduced to the island in 1944 as an emergency food supply. Since the reindeer had no natural predators the population grew exponentially until it exploded and ultimately collapsed.

In 1944 there were 29 reindeer. In 1963 there were over 6,000. In 1965 there were 44 reindeer. By the 1980s there were 0 reindeer.

They were victims of their own success. The herds grew unchecked until they devastated their ecosystem to the point that it could no longer sustain them. The question is, is this a bad thing and would any alternatives be better?

Right up until the collapse, the reindeer lived an idyllic lifestyle. With no natural predators and abundant food they lived stress free lives filled with nothing but good things. An estimated 7,000 reindeer got to live perfect lives. Yes, it ended, but all things must end. The ending could of course have been delayed, but at a cost. Had there been predators in place or had the coast guard hunted the reindeer for food the reindeer's lives would have been more numerous (as the collapse would have been delayed) but also would have been less rewarding/valuable as the reindeer would have been unhappy/stressed out.

So what is right? What feels right? What matters, ultimately? Quality of life? Quantity of life? Some combination of the two or something more?

Is human expansion for the sake of human existence an admirable goal? Is even a continuation of the way we live now admirable in its own right? Where does the balance lie? These are infinitely simpler questions to ponder, but they're still beyond the scope of any easy answer, I'm afraid.

Full disclosure, I'm drunk as all hell right now. Any coherency in this post is brought to you by the magic of Chrome's spell check.

[Aurelia]

read your reindeer story

but it is the wolverine in me who would like to survive
do the best possible
and stay blissfully happy

too many years of Catholic required philosophy courses through my head

xoA.

[tatonka]

Seeing a Birds nest with youngens in it, and one will push the other out of the nest ,so he alone survive's is how I saw life as a kid . Everywhere we lived there was a pecking order. At 5 we moved to Minneaplois MInn. we lived on the 18th floor of a apt building in hte heart of town (getto ) I had just come from a
little farm in Wis. . So I was robbed everyday by 2 bigger kids for my .5 milk money on the way to school everyday , then at 6 tortured by a dentist who said I didnt need novicanie and slapped me silly till i was numb and finished his drilling
My Father and his brothers went to his office and broke his arms , so my vengance is satifiied.
Finally at High School im 15 and about 120lbs and this senior and his buddies surrounded me at my lunch table , he is saying "Bird turd" over and over again
he is much bigger than me , but I snap and throw my spagetti plate in his face . He jumps up ,and im up already ,and I kick him in the balls , and he goes down
and I drop kick him in the face . Blood exploded everywhere , he got up and charged me , we went back up against the wall ,and then a bunch of teachers broke it up. No one teased me ever again .
I then joined the army and was at the fall of saigon as a military policeman guarding our last 3 planes at the airfield , the south veitnam army dropped there
weapons ,and charged the plane . They didnt want to be left behind as you could hear the bombs in the distance . They pushed women and children out of the way, and we busted there heads , one guy who i hit , his head burst open and he dropped into the crowd and i never seen him again . I see his face still , he was scared as I was .
After the service I was going to be a cop , but it wasnt for me . So I had a family ,and a Boxing career , did it for 6 years and then taught for a few . I found that andrealin helped me with alot of problems . Hunted , played paintball , race dirt bikes , and now the last 15 years been motorcyle riding across the west
and seeing the country . When I was 50 the doc said I has 2 years to live , so I said cut away . Now im here 8 years later and dont need the big rush anymore but the BM experience was a over welming feeling of peace. I have for the last 3 years have gone to the Oregon country fair ,and I get that same feeling there also.
I have been in so many weird places ,and most you get the "feeling" to be on your guard , these events do not instill that in me. As helping society ,well I still have only been trying to improve myself, and my family . But I found if I give smiles to everyone , I get them back ,and it feels great.
thanks all ")

I had the same dentist.......except he strapped me in the chair, and straddled my legs to hold them, while the nurse would hold my head back in the "rest" with a towel across my forehead, and , as you say, yell to hold still, for all the same procedures. My parents either didn't know, or care, so it went on until I was 7 or 8 ............I still cringe in the dental office.

but aside from that, thanks for sharing your story........very interesting, and I'd say I'm glad you found "us"........not in the ego sense, but because of your life experience, I'm sure you have lots to offer, and hopefully, we have something to share with you, too.

ah a fellow dental surviver I think how we were raised reflects on how our society is , we are brutal at times . By knowing this I can chose not to be .

[ygmir]

ah a fellow dental surviver I think how we were raised reflects on how our society is , we are brutal at times . By knowing this I can chose not to be .

yeah. Though I'm not sure I've ever been really brutal. but it is a choice, I agree.
and the times.......yeah this dentist didn't believe in Novocaine for kids.

I was heavily bullied as a youngster, I was youngest, smallest, timid and very smart (fixed that in the late 70/early 80's ahaha). Some pure torture! and if teachers found out, they'd just say "learn to defend yourself". I don't ever remember even considering bringing a gun or knife to hurt someone. And I watch Bugs Bunny, 3Stooges, and Road Runner. Army movies and Westerns.

we did bring guns to school during hunting season, so we could leave right after school, so, dozens of trucks in the school parking lot would have rifles in the window rack. Imagine that now...........

[Simon of the Playa]

in simon's creepy zone, we dont need no steenkin' philosophy...




it is what it is.

[tatonka]

ah a fellow dental surviver I think how we were raised reflects on how our society is , we are brutal at times . By knowing this I can chose not to be .

yeah. Though I'm not sure I've ever been really brutal. but it is a choice, I agree.
and the times.......yeah this dentist didn't believe in Novocaine for kids.

I was heavily bullied as a youngster, I was youngest, smallest, timid and very smart (fixed that in the late 70/early 80's ahaha). Some pure torture! and if teachers found out, they'd just say "learn to defend yourself". I don't ever remember even considering bringing a gun or knife to hurt someone. And I watch Bugs Bunny, 3Stooges, and Road Runner. Army movies and Westerns.

we did bring guns to school during hunting season, so we could leave right after school, so, dozens of trucks in the school parking lot would have rifles in the window rack. Imagine that now...........

In the service I was stationed at Ft Hood tx which has the highest crime of all the posts in the U.S. combined at the time. One guy killed his friend because he ate a piece of his chicken, and many more WTF moments. I have seen many brutal people ,and became that I guess to try and fix it , but I wasnt cop material.
We also could bring guns to school ,and leave rifles in your rifle rack in the unlocked truck , now you cant make your hand into the shape of a gun .
My kids were also taught to not back down , but my son was booted out of school for 10 days for defending himself . Always defended myself with my hands
untill the military , then after military switched back to hands ( boxing ) .
Dont know where we are headed ,doesnt look good . At times I want to just be a hermit and let everyone go and have my own creepy zone , but im somewhat social ,and like to talk to others .

[media]

[Simon of the Playa]

you're welcome anytime in the SCZ...

[ygmir]

you're welcome anytime in the SCZ...

similar, yes?

[ygmir]

yeah tatonka: I guess some of us are fighters, some not. I think part of the is hard wired, too. I've always tried to talk it down, make jokes, even use lines from Bugs Bunny (wabbit season/duck season) on people. And, tried to instill in any kid who'd listen the same. Sure, if physically attacked, defend. and in rare circumstances, the best defense is a good offense.

but.......

that said, I feel capable of defending myself and others physically. I just choose to use it as a very very last resort. And it has served me well. I've not been in many physical altercations at all, and then only usually a few seconds long. I've stopped many, though.

[FossaFerox]

As far as the propensity for violence goes, I've always liked Lt. Col. David Grossman's take on things. Basically people can be separated out into three broad categories (though it IS a spectrum, not all-or-nothing). The first category are sheep. This isn't intended as an insult. Sheep are great. They live happy, productive lives and have no inclination or stomach for violence. Most people at heart are sheep. They will run from danger and lack the capacity to visit harm on another person in all but the most extreme circumstances.

Naturally, sheep have enemies, namely the wolves who prey on them. Wolves are people who have a propensity for violence and LACK empathy. These are your violent criminals, your bullies, and unfortunately a sizable number of military and LEO who joined for the exact wrong reasons (namely power). Sheep fear wolves, and with good fucking reason.

The third category are where I think you guys probably fit. Namely sheep dogs. Sheep dogs also have a propensity for violence but they have an over abundance of empathy. They strive to protect those around them. They run towards danger and won't shy away from a fight. These are the people you would hope become police or military, and a good number of them do (there are amazing officers out there, they aren't all dicks). But a good deal more exist quietly until a crisis strikes. These are the ones you see running towards the sound of gunfire when the unthinkable happens in a school or office. Ordinary people willing to risk their lives to help others. The trouble is, sheep can have a hard time telling a sheep dog from a wolf; they look pretty similar after all. Major thread drift, here, but I thought you guys would appreciate the analogy.

[H.G.Crosby]

the best sheep dogs used to be wolves

the best wolves used to be sheepdogs.

[Roberto Dobbisano]

its not enough to know thy enemy.

you must be it.

[Simon of the Playa]

if only stockholm syndrome were a communicable disease...

[H.G.Crosby]

yeah yeah yeah....


ender's game was great.....we know.

[tatonka]

you're welcome anytime in the SCZ...

Thanks

[name redacted]

You want to see the worst in people, look no further than incarceration. I saw guys get their heads busted in for not keeping quiet during a ball game.

You check the bulb in your cell each time before you turn it on because someone with a beef against you might have separated the bulb from the socket and filled it with alcohol.

You sleep with one eye open because your cellmate is fucking crazy.