Philosophy of human civilization

[ygmir]

the best sheep dogs used to be wolves

the best wolves used to be sheepdogs.

[media]

[H.G.Crosby]

[ygmir]

please, introduce yourself, oh man of wealth and fame.

[tatonka]

As far as the propensity for violence goes, I've always liked Lt. Col. David Grossman's take on things. Basically people can be separated out into three broad categories (though it IS a spectrum, not all-or-nothing). The first category are sheep. This isn't intended as an insult. Sheep are great. They live happy, productive lives and have no inclination or stomach for violence. Most people at heart are sheep. They will run from danger and lack the capacity to visit harm on another person in all but the most extreme circumstances.

Naturally, sheep have enemies, namely the wolves who prey on them. Wolves are people who have a propensity for violence and LACK empathy. These are your violent criminals, your bullies, and unfortunately a sizable number of military and LEO who joined for the exact wrong reasons (namely power). Sheep fear wolves, and with good fucking reason.

The third category are where I think you guys probably fit. Namely sheep dogs. Sheep dogs also have a propensity for violence but they have an over abundance of empathy. They strive to protect those around them. They run towards danger and won't shy away from a fight. These are the people you would hope become police or military, and a good number of them do (there are amazing officers out there, they aren't all dicks). But a good deal more exist quietly until a crisis strikes. These are the ones you see running towards the sound of gunfire when the unthinkable happens in a school or office. Ordinary people willing to risk their lives to help others. The trouble is, sheep can have a hard time telling a sheep dog from a wolf; they look pretty similar after all. Major thread drift, here, but I thought you guys would appreciate the analogy.

its a good analogy , I think how you are raised turns you into one or the other . theory Z was very natural as a youth , everyone always pushing you out of thier way. Then if you take a stand ,and now have the time to see much more than your little world around you. I wanted to help by being a M.P. but then seen
even adults act like the kids they use to be .
Theory A would pop into my head now and then , but people mostly proved that theory wrong . Now as a seasoned human I try A no matter what , I try .

[Elliot]

This is fabulous!

I'm still pondering how evolution may have led to what I called (as a hypothesis) an incumbent sense to further society. Something about realizing that a rising tide lifts all ships. Like Box Burner's example of a growing society. Not sure (yet?) how basic evolution might have sparked the leap to such consciousness -- kind'a like the supposed spark of life from God. I'm still working on it, Trilo.

Please keep'm coming.

(But I'm not convinced this thread is a good fit for Simon's art, no offense intended. Thanks, dude.)

[theCryptofishist]

You want to see the worst in people, look no further than incarceration. I saw guys get their heads busted in for not keeping quiet during a ball game.

You check the bulb in your cell each time before you turn it on because someone with a beef against you might have separated the bulb from the socket and filled it with alcohol.

You sleep with one eye open because your cellmate is fucking crazy.

This fits with what I've heard.
And makes me wonder. Supposedly, if the ratio of women to men is too low (or too skewed in the favor of men, those ratios kinda confuse me) the violence of the society increases. Especially if those are young men. And I suspect that the prison population is young--although, with the wacky sentencing laws, it's aging. We evolved to live in small groups, up to 150 or so, to use Dunbar's number. We evolved to have a lot more touch than many americans do. And I think that lack of touch is also a strain. I think we go crazy without it. (For a given value of crazy...) I think that the way prisons are designed (building and socially) drives people a little crazy.
So, I have no quarrel that prisons contain a hugely disproportionate number of dangerous, violent men, but the buzzing between the ears only goes louder inside.

[Simon of the Playa]

oh man, i have to use WORDS?


it takes so long...and it's harder to work in the subliminals.

[Elliot]

Simon, everything you post is art.

[FIGJAM]

You want to see the worst in people, look no further than incarceration. I saw guys get their heads busted in for not keeping quiet during a ball game.

You check the bulb in your cell each time before you turn it on because someone with a beef against you might have separated the bulb from the socket and filled it with alcohol.

You sleep with one eye open because your cellmate is fucking crazy.

This fits with what I've heard.
And makes me wonder. Supposedly, if the ratio of women to men is too low (or too skewed in the favor of men, those ratios kinda confuse me) the violence of the society increases. Especially if those are young men. And I suspect that the prison population is young--although, with the wacky sentencing laws, it's aging. We evolved to live in small groups, up to 150 or so, to use Dunbar's number. We evolved to have a lot more touch than many americans do. And I think that lack of touch is also a strain. I think we go crazy without it. (For a given value of crazy...) I think that the way prisons are designed (building and socially) drives people a little crazy.
So, I have no quarrel that prisons contain a hugely disproportionate number of dangerous, violent men, but the buzzing between the ears only goes louder inside.

It depends on the prison and the security level of the inmates.

The lifers don't allow any shit to go down because it's their home and any screw up means lose of privleges for everyone.

As a one time desparado, my first meal, I sat in the wrong racial section.

One of the "fellas" came over and directed me to were I should be.

The strangest thing was that if there was a beef between 2 inmates, whether it was same race or interracial, the ones involved didn't settle it.

They went to the head of their group (arian brotherhood, mexican mafia, or black muslems) and told their side of the story.

The lifers from the groups would decide who was at fault.

Then someone from the offending parties group would deliver the beatdown.

The point to all this is that I found people on the inside were MORE curtious that people on the outside because their lives depended on it!

Thus order was maintained and the occational steak dinners in the name of charity weren't interupted.

[theCryptofishist]

Aha. I suppose what does leak outside tends to be riots and overcrowding... Thank you.

[Box Burner]

well damn. had the whole of part 2 written out and it did not save.

maybe write it at some later date. It tends to wander somewhat.

I am in the A camp. As Trilo said "As for theory Z, I like to think that as we're steamrolling our way towards an apocalyptic oblivion, it makes more sense than ever to invest time and energy into thinking of others."

[Elliot]

...as we're steamrolling our way towards an apocalyptic oblivion,...

Indeed, widespread use of A may be our only hope of avoiding the above.

[tatonka]

Love All
Trust few
Do wrong to none

Shakespeare

[Lonesomebri]

I always get alittle nervous (sometimes pissed) when someone in Camp A tries to "civilize" me, you know, for the good of "everyone". Isn't that act sometimes born of trying to make others be like you, not so much trying to do what's right?

And isn't this like a Chinese menu? A little from column A, a little from column B.

[Box Burner]

The Pretender



I'm going to rent myself a house
In the shade of the freeway
Going to pack my lunch in the morning
And go to work each day
And when the evening rolls around
I'll go on home and lay my body down
And when the morning light comes streaming in
I'll get up and do it again
Amen
Say it again
Amen

I want to know what became of the changes
We waited for love to bring
Were they only the fitful dreams
Of some greater awakening?
I've been aware of the time going by
They say in the end it's the wink of an eye
And when the morning light comes streaming in
You'll get up and do it again
Amen

Caught between the longing for love
And the struggle for the legal tender
Where the sirens sing and the Church bells ring
And the junk man pounds his fender
Where the veterans dream of the fight
Fast asleep at the traffic light
And the children solemnly wait
For the icecream vendor
Out into the cool of the evening
Strolls the pretender
He knows that all his hopes and dreams
Begin and end there

Ah, the laughter as they run through the night
Leaving nothing but to choose off and fight
And tear at the world with all their might
While the ships bearing their dreams sail out of sight
I'm going to find myself a girl
Who can show me what laughter means
And we'll fill in the missing colors
In each other's paint by number dreams
And then we'll put our dark glasses on
And we'll make love until our strength is gone
And when the morning light comes streaming in
We'll get up and do it again
Get it up again

I'm going to be a happy idiot
And struggle for the legal tender
Where the ads take aim and lay their claim
To the heart and the soul of the spender
And believe in whatever may lie
In those things that money can buy
Though true love could have been a contender
Are you there?
Say a prayer for the pretender
Who started out so young and strong
Only to surrender


by Jackson Brown

Just seemed so appropriate...

Is this us?

[Lonesomebri]

My problem with this is that Camp A defines what is "good" and "best" for everyone else. Looking at history, didn't Hitler and Stalin both want to make society "better"? They sure weren't sitting back and letting others mess up all the great plans and visions they had. Seriously, what camp do you think they saw themselves in? They rounded up the "degenerates" and "troublemakers" and whoever else in Camp Z, all in the quest to do what they thought was good for society. And they were horribly wrong. And I am sure they also refused to believe that their views might not be right for everyone. Instead of realizing that Camp Z might just be made up of some people who don't feel they hold all the answers for everyone else, it isn't that they don't care. If I define a philosophy were I am inherently good, whatever I decide is therefore inherently best for others, and I won't rest until they come around, that really doesn't sound all that benevolent. Heck, I can claim that i care for everyone else and that my actions are all about concern for society, not my building up my ego....but even I'm not buying that.

[theCryptofishist]

Come on, Bri, just listen to the little voice, deep inside you, that says: I do know what's best for mankind and burnerkind, and I will achieve it.

[Lonesomebri]

Come on, Bri, just listen to the little voice, deep inside you, that says: I do know what's best for mankind and burnerkind, and I will achieve it.

Look, I tried to show my newbie how to do it right, and they haven't spoken to me since.....and they are far more Camp A than I am. Funny, 'cause I should totally be down with Camp A; there is not one person here who thinks more than me that, hey, I'm giving my all for the good of all you bastards and this is the thanks I get? There is sort of a martyr underlay to the philosophical set-up to Camp A. "Should I continue doing what's good for everyone else or give in." Heck, I do what I do for me, same as everyone.

[GreyCoyote]

My problem with this is that Camp A defines what is "good" and "best" for everyone else. Looking at history, didn't Hitler and Stalin both want to make society "better"? They sure weren't sitting back and letting others mess up all the great plans and visions they had. Seriously, what camp do you think they saw themselves in? They rounded up the "degenerates" and "troublemakers" and whoever else in Camp Z, all in the quest to do what they thought was good for society. And they were horribly wrong. And I am sure they also refused to believe that their views might not be right for everyone. Instead of realizing that Camp Z might just be made up of some people who don't feel they hold all the answers for everyone else, it isn't that they don't care. If I define a philosophy were I am inherently good, whatever I decide is therefore inherently best for others, and I won't rest until they come around, that really doesn't sound all that benevolent. Heck, I can claim that i care for everyone else and that my actions are all about concern for society, not my building up my ego....but even I'm not buying that.

Based on a quick review of several threads, I'm going to guess Bri spent the last couple of days watching re-runs of "World At War". This based on his recently plentiful Hitler references.

[theCryptofishist]

Actually, it was Triumph of the Will.

[GreyCoyote]

Bingo! Cryptofishist for the win!

[Box Burner]

Not about telling other people how to do it. It is more about having dreams and seeing how it could be better and then finally giving up.

My generation (boomers) saw how fucked up things were and went about pointing it out. Sure, there were many opinions about how to fix it, some good and some not so good, but the common factor was that we could see that it was (and still is) fucked up and in need of fixing.

The establishment (the banks, corporations, presidents, kings, parliaments and congresses) had set up a system by which everyone could proper, themselves (very much) more than others. They did not want anyone to point out the flaws in the system and actively suppressed anyone who spoke out against it. (Can you say Kent State?)

My parents generation, they who grew up under the establishment, who wanted to pass on the new prosperity they had to their children and saw to it that we had the very best education that any generation had ever had, trusted the establishment more than their own kids. And sided with them! (Even as they were beginning to see that prosperity slip away.)


So here I sit at the other end of the pyramid. Looking back on it all and wondering what happened? With the education our parents provided us it was easy to see the things that were wrong. We were so sure. Did we give in to the beatings? To the persistent reciting of how great things are and how we should just sut up and listen to our betters because we were too young to really know? Did our parents, whom we trusted, turn us around?

Or did we finally just give up our dreams and surrender to the struggle for the legal Tender?

[BBadger]

I choose Philosophy "None of the Above."

Philosophy A: If you speak of "consciousness" and "civilized society" (singular) then you are really describing a single entity in which there is no room for individuality.

Ant, bee, and even mole rat colonies have this kind of "society" and "consciousness." The hives act in many ways as a single organism with a single purpose. Other than enabling the creation of new colonies, individuals are sexually suppressed to prevent competition.

Attempts to replicate this kind of single-thinking has ultimately failed with mankind. We're individuals, not drones. Sure we've had these nation-states where nearly everything is controlled, but that has never been the same as embracing this single collective view of "civilized society" but rather the society imposed on the individual.

Should human society achieve some sort of "consciousness" we would cease to be humans. I don't think that is something desired, or an "evolution" as a species, as we'd be trading our own sentience for some collective sentience.

Philosophy Z: The assertion that there ever was a "peak" and a deterioration is false. This would assume that there was some human-wide standard in place, or even a single civilization at any given time. Not even the Roman empire for the West could be considered a "peak" or even a single civilization for that matter.

I do believe that humans are driven by their own interests; however, no sane human would assume that he/she is acting alone on this earth. Instead, we create social constructs, and attachments to others, in order to further our collective and personal interests. In effect, our sense of ourselves is as much about the people, groups, and ideas we attach ourselves to as our individual selves, perhaps even more.

[MyDearFriend]

I think Mr. Meatcake-With-Teeth has got it right, and, is probably closer to Elliot's A position than he thinks he is.

I agree with what's been said about the relationship between interpersonal boundary issues, friction and overcrowding, and prey/predator/guardian roles in human societies.

And I also believe that, contrary to Elliot's hypothetical postion Z, humans taken as a whole are learning to do better at living together, though the increasing size of our group makes this a continuously moving target.

I would prefer to see Elliot's A position less as a duty to conform as an innate yearning to establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity; your basic guardian instincts...

EDITED TO ADD, FOR FULL DISCLOSURE: I find that a lot of people are really stupid.

[Simon of the Playa]

"is it the lamp, or the light inside the lamp?"

[media]

[Dr. Pyro]

EDITED TO ADD, FOR FULL DISCLOSURE: I find that a lot of people are really stupid.

This is particularly true when you consider how stupid the average person is, and half the population is even more stupid than that.

[MyDearFriend]

EDITED TO ADD, FOR FULL DISCLOSURE: I find that a lot of people are really stupid.

This is particularly true when you consider how stupid the average person is, and half the population is even more stupid than that.

EXACTLY!!!

[Elliot]

EDITED TO ADD, FOR FULL DISCLOSURE: I find that a lot of people are really stupid.

This is particularly true when you consider how stupid the average person is, and half the population is even more stupid than that.

Now, there's something we can agree on!
Scary thing is.... I believe we HAVE passed our peak as a civilization, and that happened very recently when we invented medicine and sanitation and ways to keep most people from being eaten by animals, and thus eliminated the natural ways the stupidest were kept from growing up to reproduce.
Now we go out of our way to keep the stupidest alive to reproduce like flies. As a society we are down-breeding ourselves.
It is most frightening every time I realize the stupidities I am "capable" of myself.

[Lonesomebri]

Based on a quick review of several threads, I'm going to guess Bri spent the last couple of days watching re-runs of "World At War". This based on his recently plentiful Hitler references.

Naw, I just happened to read a Hitler reference on another thread, posted by someone before any references by me, decided to go with that train of reason, see if it got me there on time.

"But the idea of taking clandestine photos in the first place is Wrong. This is a philosophical concept as much as a practical one: It may cause no skin off my nose, but I don't know that.
And if I don't even know the picture is being taken, that is Majorly Wrong. That's what Stalin and Hitler and King Saud and such folks do."

Triumph of the Will indeed, think I read this there- "I believe we HAVE passed our peak as a civilization, and that happened very recently when we invented medicine and sanitation and ways to keep most people from being eaten by animals, and thus eliminated the natural ways the stupidest were kept from growing up to reproduce."

[theCryptofishist]

Based on a quick review of several threads, I'm going to guess Bri spent the last couple of days watching re-runs of "World At War". This based on his recently plentiful Hitler references.

Naw, I just happened to read a Hitler reference on another thread, posted by someone before any references by me, decided to go with that train of reason, see if it got me there on time.

Silly Burner, you wanted the Mussolini train.