To Art Car or NOT to Art Car

[Josexx]

Hello family, I gots a question for some of you out there that have some vehicle knowledge and/or art car building experience. I have commited to making my art car dream happen and have been browsing for suitable donor vehicles. An offer arose from some coworkers that are willing to give me a FREE vehicle. It is a 15 passenger transport vehicle with a wheelchair lift. E350 model I believe. You know like a special needs bus. They said it runs and has around 100k miles.

The catch is that it has an "issue" with one of the cylinders. I'm assuming how bad of an issue will not reveal itself until it is opened up. This sounds pretty expensive but I am by no means a car guy.

So, my question is... is it worth it? Take the bus and deal with the expenses for repair or use that money towards a purchase of a similar vehicle that needs no repair.

Any input on this matter would be appreciated.
Thank you Thank You THank you

[trilobyte]

Hello and welcome to the site. You've given a few details, but not a whole lot.

You say you've got some knowledge, but that's kind of nebulous. I've got a friend who says he's got some knowledge, and can rebuild motors from the ground up. Another makes the same claim, but struggles with anything more than changing the oil. Me, I fall into the category of not-a-car-guy-at-all. I've built and crewed a couple MV's, but as far as the core vehicle mechanics the only thing I can tell you is they're a money pit.

I'm going to speculate that if you knew enough to be able to do the kind of work that the vehicle needs, you should probably already know what kind of money you're talking about and that you wouldn't need to solicit advice here. Guessing that it's work you don't know how to do yourself, that means you've either got to get one on your crew and/or be paying people to do that work. If that's where you're at, then start calling up those friends or start looking up numbers for garages and mechanics that can do the work to get a ballpark estimate on just that one job. If you decide to accept your friends' generous offer, expect that the vehicle will probably need several thousand dollars' worth of repair and maintenance work before you start mutating it (100K miles isn't that old for a commercial grade vehicle, but it's around the time you start needing to do more expensive routine maintenance than changing the oil or replacing a filter). Once you get the vehicle, get it into a shop (or to a friend) who can give it a good going over to see what it needs.

Once you've got the estimate on that cylinder job, you can tack on a few thousand from that and then start to guesstimate what it'll cost you to mutate into whatever you're making (take whatever you think it will cost now and double it, because stuff comes up and everything runs over budget). Now compare it to your project budget and see if it works. For the sake of being radically self-reliant and doing the research, now take a look around to see what you can get in the way of new/used vehicles to accomplish the same job. When you do your comparisons, consider things like load capacity (a small bus is designed to carry a hell of a lot more than a sedan or mini-van, for example). Good luck!

[fernley1]

I would say that it depends on the year and what kind of engine it has.
if it a newer ford e350 with a gas engine, I would fix it or replace it, not to hard.
Sounds like it will made a great platform for a art car.

[GreyCoyote]

If it's the mid-2000's Ford 6.x liter Powerstroke diesel, then I would run FAR FAR AWAY. The list of things about to fail, or that have already failed, is staggering and the repair/parts prices are really insane. Turbo, wastegate, vane controller, high-pressure oil pump, EGR cooler, head gaskets, studs... heck, the entire motor really. (But if you have the 7.3 diesel, these are bulletproof workhorses and not too hard to work on).

As others have said, the devil is in the details. The "bad cylinder" could be something as simple as a bad plug or a sticky valve. It's trivial to fix that sort of thing. But if you've got something major wrong, that is a very hard engine bay to work in.

That wheelchair lift intrigues me. If you had a mutantized vehicle that was chair-accessible, you would be a great asset to quite a few burners who have mobility issues on the playa. Please consider this before you make any decision to pass-up this vehicle.

[theCryptofishist]

That wheelchair lift intrigues me. If you had a mutantized vehicle that was chair-accessible, you would be a great asset to quite a few burners who have mobility issues on the playa. Please consider this before you make any decision to pass-up this vehicle.

He'd be besieged. Does he want that? It's a question worth thinking about. If he has specific questions about the social dynamics and non-mechanical issues, then Tiny Mystic, Rat Lady, and myself are the resident experts.
Tiny Mystic's lift on her van started having issues towards the end of the week. A lift is a complicated mechanical/electrical devise, and we know that those are always often headaches on playa.

[Josexx]

Actually I never said I had knowledge. Perhaps you misread the post. The vehicle has a gas engine not a diesel, which in some ways a plus and a minus I guess(I've heard great things about the longevity of some Diesel engines). Thanks for all the tips. I have done some research locally and found that for about $5000 I can buy something comparable without the engine issues. I guess without dishing out some money I wouldn't really know how deep of a money pit the "free" bus would go. Obviously if it exceeds the 5k it wouldn't be worth the headache. As far as the lift goes, although it would be very useful on the playa, i would probably donate it. I actually work for a special needs company and we always have issues with them failing. I'll try and squeeze some more details from the owner but my first impression of him is that 1) it's a don't look a gift horse in the mouth kind of a situation and 2) it's more of a headache than even he wants to deal with (he's a mechanic).

Thanks for all of the input everyone. Keep it coming please

[Josexx]

Oh I forgot to mention that the lift would be replaced with a ramp, so wheelchair access would still be available. Now how to get a WC access to the roof.... That's a challenge to be addressed later for sure.

[Elliot]

No, I think you SHOULD look this potential gift horse in the mouth. Take it to a professional mechanic and have it diagnosed. Have him look everything else over while you are there. Might cost $150.- or some such, which would be well worth it.

[The Rod]

Take the free van. Take it. Make it clear to your friend that once its yours, the title in your name that you can do whatever you please with it.

Take it to a good mechanic, find out what the problem is and how much its gonna cost to repair, along with any other problems or issues that might be hiding in there. If you can get it running for less than $5000 then you're saving money that you would have spent on buying the van without any disclosed issues. Even if its got a blown head gasket, or worse a cracked block you can conceivably get your hands on a donor gas motor and have it installed for way less than $5000.

Now, if for some reason it's so Fubared that you'll spend more than $5000 (the cost of the 'other' one) then send the damn thing to the scrap yard and get a few hundred bucks or so to put towards the purchase of a base vehicle that will fit your needs and function.

That being said and e350 would be great base vehicle, its basically a one ton truck but a van, built solid and will handle the stress of a MV way better than a minivan or whatever, as has been stated earlier.

However, I know that around both places that I spend lots of time (Pacific NW and New Mexico) $5000 could get you a nice e350 with either a 7.3 powerstroke or even an older 6.9 or 7.3 IDI diesel motor which are notoriously bullet proof motors known for lasting well beyond 400,000 miles and will give you better economy and a greater torque curve over a gas V8, However diesels are way more expensive to repair...

[Captain Goddammit]

Just a week ago I gave a buddy of mine who's in a hard place $100 worth of oil to do his oil change on his diesel pickup, which he traded away a few days later... a gift is a gift but it still sucked that I blew $100 on nothing.
If you take it just to scrap it you might piss off your friend. If its a total stranger, go for it.

I've put a few engines in vans. It's a royal bitch. Working on them at all is a royal bitch.
The last time I had a van needing an engine, I'd already vowed to never do that again so I traded the thing for my first Burning Man ticket. Then, the guy (a friend's nephew) offered me enough money to put the engine in to pay for the rest of my trip and I ended up doing it even after I got rid of it!

My question is whether you're going to drive it to the playa or trailer it. If it has to make the trip on its own, you have a lot more to think about. If the transmission hasn't been replaced, 100k is in the screaming danger zone on one of those rigs. Tires, bearings, radiator, a lot of things need to be in too shape for this road trip out to nowhere in a heavy vehicle.

If a mechanic owns that bus and doesn't want to deal with the bad cylinder, it's not gonna be a stuck something that's easy to deal with. The motor is gonna have to come out. 100k is a shitload of miles on a vehicle weighing that much and probably driven by someone who doesn't own it.

Those fiberglass bodied mini-bus things are mysteriously expensive on the used market, I think because they have such wide commercial use.
Older Class C motorhomes are also notoriously cheap, and are the exact same chassis and platform as those mini busses. If you wanna deal with cutting off the wood stick & staple house body. That is something you don't need mechanical knowledge to accomplish. Just a sawzall.
$2000 or so will buy one of those in pretty OK shape and it will probably even have an onboard generator. Big plus.

If an upper deck on the roof is part of the plan, neither the motorhome nor the airport shuttle style bus have roofs adequate to support that, you'll need to go from the bottom up.

If you can get your hands on a van-front mini school bus, you're ahead because those are built tough and you can put a deck on the roof.
Or consider a regular full size van - those are cheap used and have a stout roof.

[Josexx]

update: I was given some false information, the "friend" that I talked to was not told anything about the van and was basically feeding me some bullshit.
I got to talk to his boss who is the one who actually made the offer and this is what I got:

The company vehicle is an '03 E450, v10, around 235,000 miles. One cylinder is not firing but it can be driven. The transmission is new and has less than 50 miles on it. everything else is in good running order including quite a bit of life left on the tires. Other than a broken window, it's in great cosmetic shape.

Being that it's a company vehicle I'm sure that it has otherwise been well maintained. The cost of the repair just may not be low enough for the nonprofit company to want to deal with.(They have like 25 similar vans in the fleet)

Whatever the donor vehicle ends up being it WILL have to drive to the playa. I have taken this into account when doing some initial sketches of what I want it to become. Since I have posted this three locals have expressed interest in the project. One is a general contractor. The other two are mechanics for a local race team and have already offered their services. Now I just need to set up a meeting so that they can have a look at the bus.

[FIGJAM]

Rough guess for the non-firing cylinder.

Plugged fuel injector= no fuel no fire.

Leaky valves= no compression no fire.

Hole in the piston= same as above, but should blow LOTS of smoke.

[Captain Goddammit]

My guess is it's something more serious because the owner has elected to abandon it - BUT in light of that further info about it - hell yes take it!! If it's got a new transmission, that alone is worth real coin! The trans in those things costs several thousand to rebuild. I'm sure you could part out or sell the whole thing for some real money.
Sure, have a mechanic investigate the issue, but that's a hell of a lot of miles, even if the immediate problem can be solved that motor's near the end of it's life.
You could just ignore the bad cylinder, depending on what is causing it and how far you'll have to drive it. It'll get shittier gas mileage and be a little weaker but if that one trip is all it has to do, it's a valid option.
At that mileage, if thousands to replace the motor isn't in the cards, I'd try not to spend any more money mutating it that you have to, except for things you can later remove and use in something else.

[Josexx]

okay I get the final look at the soon to be donor vehicle tomorrow. I've shopped around and even if this thing needs a new motor it would only run me about 3k -4k which is less than buying a similar vehicle. The plus side is that there is no money to spend upfront which means I can take my time shopping for any parts I may need AND I can begin gutting this thing. I'll hopefully be able to drive it home by the end of the week!

Thanks for all of the input, I'm sure I'll have more questions as the build moves along.
If you're interested in seeing the progress follow us here>>

https://www.facebook.com/DarksideAwessuary

[Josexx]

A light bulb just went on in my head! This art car is planned to be a rolling ossuary. The bulk of the bones are sheep from a local farm but there may be a few other misc. skulls incorporated. Does anyone know of any laws prohibiting crossing state lines (California to Nevada) with said bones? I've done some hunting online and can't find any clear cut answers specific to the animals in question.

[Savannah]

A light bulb just went on in my head! This art car is planned to be a rolling ossuary. The bulk of the bones are sheep from a local farm but there may be a few other misc. skulls incorporated. Does anyone know of any laws prohibiting crossing state lines (California to Nevada) with said bones? I've done some hunting online and can't find any clear cut answers specific to the animals in question.

Maybe you could contact the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service?
http://www.fws.gov/

[BoyScoutGirl]

Does anyone know of any laws prohibiting crossing state lines (California to Nevada) with said bones? I've done some hunting online and can't find any clear cut answers specific to the animals in question.

I'm glad you're thinking on this now, Josexx, because the laws dealing with transportation of non-food animal tissue across state lines are quite tortuous, with each state have its own idiosyncrasies, going back to the Lacey Act of 1900. Here's a link, on Sav's suggestion, to more info from the F&WS: http://www.fws.gov/le/interstate-wildli ... sport.html including a phone number at the bottom. Again, it's often a state-by-state deal, so be prepared for them to maybe pass the buck to state Departments of Natural Resources, etc.

I'd anticipate that, rather than having trouble getting bones into NV, getting the bones back into CA may be more problematic, given the Agricultural Inspection Stations. Here's the CA-specific regulations with regard to Chronic Wasting Disease, one of the major fears related to the transport of large mammal material: http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fusea ... s?state=CA The basics are: boil the heck out of the bones and make absolutely certain there is no brain or spine tissue. According to that site, Nevada has no such ban (for CWD species, anyhow).

Also: rolling ossuary? F*ck yes!

[Josexx]

Cool, thanks for the links. VERY helpful.

"Also: rolling ossuary? F*ck yes!"

I know right!? I'm so excited!

[PermaBurgin]

Can I hijack this thread really quick? What are the chances that this vehicle will be able to survive the playa for a week?


Power: 501 - 800W
Voltage: 48V
POWER CONSUMPTION: 6-10KW.H/100KM
Wheel Size//Wheel base: 3.00-162//140MM

[Captain Goddammit]

I'm sure it would survive, but it's electric and that really sucks.

[Elliot]

Two utterly mismatched vehicles cobbled together in the middle -- for the love of flowers, PermaBurgin, where the hell is your sense of esthetics?!

[PermaBurgin]

I'm sure it would survive, but it's electric and that really sucks.

That's encouraging, why does being electric suck? I could buy a better and cheaper gas powered one but I thought Burning man was pro electric?

Two utterly mismatched vehicles cobbled together in the middle -- for the love of flowers, PermaBurgin, where the hell is your sense of esthetics?!

Well it IS going to be an art car, so the initial esthetics don't matter as much. I'm looking at a few different models, but they all have the same basic power and hauling capabilities, so I'm just trying to decide which is the best base.

[Elliot]

PermaBurgin, I understand that. It's just that the base vehicle is so grotesquely ugly it offends the eye. Of course, I may be more sensitive to that than the average bear. Glad you didn't run off in disgust at my comment. But daaaawg, that thing is an altar to ugly.

Electric is nice -- it's quiet, and does not emit exhaust smoke in the passengers' faces.
The drawback is operating range. You might have to return to camp to charge it for hours, when you would rather keep rolling. Or, worse, you might get stuck somewhere, with no juice left.

I drove an electric golf cart MV in 2010, and that was OK for my purpose, but I had to pay close attention and return to camp often.

Of course, an accurate Volt meter -- and the knowledge to read it -- would serve as a "fuel gauge".

As for the environmental angle, you have to burn petroleum fuel in camp to charge it, so that's a wash.

[PermaBurgin]

I think I'll take the electric and just stay local, and I'd only be applying for a day permit so I can charge it at night. But you look like the guy to talk to about wheels; I'll have three wheels and three spares, do you think I'll be good?

[Elliot]

You can go clear across BRC and all over the outer Playa. You just need to understand the limits. It would be easy to cruise around for hours and suddenly find yourself stuck. With gasoline you would just walk back to camp and fetch a quart or two in a can. Not so easy with electricity.

I cannot imagine you needing three spares, but better safe than sorry.

So... is BM all new to you?

[PermaBurgin]

So... is BM all new to you?

Not exactly. I have some burner friends and I've done a lot of research, I've been trying for two years now, but I haven't gone. I'd like to bring something small, manageable, and awesome my first year, and I've recently met someone who can get me excellent deals on motorized tricycles and it's really sparked my imagination. I was just worried the tiny machines couldn't handle the harsh conditions.

[Captain Goddammit]

Generally, at Burning Man you're better off with gas powered vehicles. Like Elliot mentioned, there's no "green" benefit at all when you are going to be charging from a gas powered generator anyway. In fact it's a lot less efficient.
Range is limited, and the wait time to recharge can dampen your fun. Charging at night means running your generator at night, fine if you have a super-quiet one. Not so great if you don't. The playa dust tends to screw up electric parts like controllers and relays.
If I were going to build an electric MV I'd carry a little Honda or Yamaha generator and a charger so I wouldn't have to abandon it somewhere when the batteries died. But it makes so much more sense to just use a gas engine to power it directly than to screw around using a gas engine to charge the batteries then use those to power the MV.

Electric MVs do work and people use them, but the vast majority don't and if you have the choice, I'd recommend the gas powered one.

[theCryptofishist]

Ditto to what the captain said. I've seen too many electric golf carts drain batteries--and reserves of time--to think that an electric anything would be anything but a pain in the ass for you. Especially as you've only got it (the event) for a week.

Come to think of it, the electric wheelchair gives me the same problems. Gas is the way to go.

[Elliot]

So... is BM all new to you?

Not exactly. I have some burner friends and I've done a lot of research, I've been trying for two years now, but I haven't gone. ....

Translation; you are new to this. But the research is good.
Be sure you read ALL the rules for MVs. You cannot just show up with whatever you have concocted.

What sort of magic entity to you plan to build on this chassis?

[PermaBurgin]

The guilty part of me really wanted to hear pro-gas arguments, as I can haul more and its cheaper and I can go further.

And Eliot I'm going to mimic a natural quartz crystal cluster on top of the MV using lucite; I don't want to clog the thread with pictures but I hope it will be neat. I'm going to put pretty lucite beads on every inch of the vehicle I can reach, but I'm still nervous about the "mutated not decorated" rule. I'm banking on the sculpture on top being cool enough to pass, plus like i said I'm only applying for the day permit (unless I end up putting LED's underneath the sculpture).