The decline of BurningMan

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 2:11 pm

I never got that impression Geekster.

we do clash here but I enjoy the discussions.

I bought you a drink in the bar a few days ago to thank you for your insights.

technopatra · Post by **technopatra** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 1:15 pm

geekster wrote:
What prompted me to write some things I have written is my own perception that there were a lot of people at the event who were there for no other reason than to attend the various dance camps and did very little else during their time there. This perception was reinforced by several blogs I had read.

For what it's worth, I agree with this observation. Burning Man has made it on the must-do lists of the Ibiza-type party culture. Has been for a few years. There is definitely a contingent (tho i think it's much smaller than most think), of folks who come to participate that way.

I'd like to bring up a quote that was sent to me that seems to apply to everything I am involved in lately:

"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."
--R. Buckminster Fuller, *Critical Path*

The hardcore reality is that you can't "fix" the fact that other people enjoy the event in their own fashion, You can only try to build something better and more engaging and offer it to them as any other gift. They have every right to refuse that gift, just as you can choose to refuse theirs.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:26 pm

The hardcore reality is that you can't "fix" the fact that other people enjoy the event in their own fashion

word

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:18 pm

technopatra wrote: For what it's worth, I agree with this observation....

"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."
--R. Buckminster Fuller, *Critical Path*

The hardcore reality is that you can't "fix" the fact that other people enjoy the event in their own fashion, You can only try to build something better and more engaging and offer it to them as any other gift...

So in your opinion how much do you think its a problem? Do you think a resurgence of art is in need?

Kiba · Post by **Kiba** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:24 am

I think a resurgance of art is a good thing, but given the party stats, I may be among the minority. Good thing I never cared about majority approval. ^_^

tonytohono · Post by **tonytohono** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:40 pm

Dear Burnt out -

I have heard similar tales from other old timers, my friend Fred being one. I have no doubt of your sincerity, but isn't it kind of ovbious that there are many more people out there in the world who are not at BM who would totally love to be if they had any idea what was going on there? And when these people start showing up isn't it going to change the over all demographic of the situation?

There has to be some order otherwise someone is going to get hurt. Maybe you should try and start another gathering of some sort and ride it out until it outgrows your desire.

I dunno.

playasnake · Post by **playasnake** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:37 pm

tonytohono wrote:There has to be some order otherwise someone is going to get hurt.

that right there sums up the decline of burningman.

tonytohono · Post by **tonytohono** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 4:58 pm

Sure it does... so why don'tcha just not go anymore? And save all of us who are still enjoying it from the whining?

I for one don't like hearing about people getting burnt, or killed. Maybe you like that, but some of us don't.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:35 pm

Sure it does... so why don'tcha just not go anymore? And save all of us who are still enjoying it from the whining?

I for one don't like hearing about people getting burnt, or killed. Maybe you like that, but some of us don't.

Such a compelling reply.

tonytohono · Post by **tonytohono** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:49 pm

Oh, but his reply was oh so much more compelling than mine, wasn't it.

A bunch of curmudgeons running around this place. I guess some us can have a good time on a whole lot less octane than others.

Like it or not, when you have 35,000 people running around in an area of that size there has to be some ground rules. Especially when you have people that don't know how to look out for themselves, let alone others, stinking up the joint. Now if that spells the decline of BM, what-the-fuck-ever-people.

tonytohono · Post by **tonytohono** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:52 pm

PS- if the dogs are drinking so deeply, better send them over to the bar.

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:54 pm

PS- if the dogs are drinking so deeply, better send them over to the bar.

Thanks for sharing. I feel your pain.

tonytohono · Post by **tonytohono** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 8:59 pm

right back at cha.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:26 pm

Kiba wrote:I think a resurgance of art is a good thing, but given the party stats, I may be among the minority. Good thing I never cared about majority approval. ^_^

I thought we had come to some vague resemblance of agreement that a re-focus on the art was in need, but seems this thread drifts too much to tell. To repeat Geekster's points being addressed...

1. Lack of art.
2. Frustrated people trying to provide art.
3. Seeming rule creep keeping cool art away.

I asked Technopatra to get an idea of what perceptions an admin might have, since I got no reply I can only hope that is a bad guage to measure the org's interest in hearing it.

I still think the first point to make to the Bman Org, its a serious problem that needs acknowledgement. We/they can work out the mechanics of how to tackle it in the next step.

Otherwise, I fear, there will not be much progress.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:08 am

spectabillis wrote: I still think the first point to make to the Bman Org, its a serious problem that needs acknowledgement. We/they can work out the mechanics of how to tackle it in the next step.

This is where I wholeheartedly disagree. The BMORG is the last group that should be involved.

WE need to change it. One of the most depressing statements I have ever seen on this board was someone asking "Why was so little art? Where is all my ticket money going to if not grants?"

The art needs to be brought back by THE ATTENDEES. If they totally cut all grants, that actually might be a good thing. It would make the people have to create the art again. Remove that damn "amuse me" feeling that folks of the Ibisa crowd perpetuate.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:27 am

Rob the Wop wrote:
spectabillis wrote: I still think the first point to make to the Bman Org, its a serious problem that needs acknowledgement. We/they can work out the mechanics of how to tackle it in the next step.
WE need to change it. One of the most depressing statements I have ever seen on this board was someone asking "Why was so little art? Where is all my ticket money going to if not grants?"

The art needs to be brought back by THE ATTENDEES. If they totally cut all grants, that actually might be a good thing. It would make the people have to create the art again. Remove that damn "amuse me" feeling that folks of the Ibisa crowd perpetuate.

Ok, but first, are we in agreement that its a pretty severe problem?

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:40 am

Absolutely, its why I've quit going.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:49 am

Rob the Wop wrote:Absolutely, its why I've quit going.

Me too.

I first want to guage how strong everyone feels about it. I might be wrong, but I get the idea that most people dont think its that important.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:49 pm

2. Frustrated people trying to provide art.

why are they/we frustrated?

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:29 am

I need to post a correction/followup to a previous post... I was wrong.

The Black Rock Arts group www.blackrockarts.org , does NOT fund playa art. They fund artists wanting to move beyond Burningman into mainstream society.

meta dreamer · Post by **meta dreamer** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:38 pm

spectabillis wrote:
The art needs to be brought back by THE ATTENDEES. If they totally cut all grants, that actually might be a good thing. It would make the people have to create the art again. Remove that damn "amuse me" feeling that folks of the Ibisa crowd perpetuate.

Ok, but first, are we in agreement that its a pretty severe problem?[/quote]

I think spectabillis has a point. Here's my point:

I see the "art problem" as having (at least) two parts: 1) the adequate funding and fair selection of BM sponsored art (addressed by the shipyard and their petition) and 2) the dilution of art-per-person ratio (i.e. art participation) that makes it “seem” as if there is less art. The solution to part I may be addressed by the demands of the shipyard’s petition. The solution to part II will be much more complex to address and require the participation of EVERYONE.

If we submit that Part II of the problem is one of too many spectators, not enough participants, then we need to put our energies to finding ways to get people to participate. The world needs the consciousness of the masses to be changed. If you reject them as gawkers and “partyers”, how in the hell are you going to get them to trust putting themselves out by risking interaction or tentative creation of their own arts? Be careful how you box people into a role or behavior by labeling them. If you expect to get only a limited level of behavior from them, then that is most likely what they will put out. Your thoughts have energy, a la “What the Bleep”.

Let’s face it. Nobody was born a great artist. Artists evolve from people with less mind and other limitations on creativity. A large part of BM is offering an environment with less limitation where any and all is possible by anyone. Inside everyone is the seed of a great artist. That seed needs to be encouraged to sprout and nourished to grow, especially if we want to create a positive cultural alternative to global corporatism. This is the way to make it happen.

If you provide an encouraging environment, people will participate, creat art, grow and change. I know I have changed tremendously in the last two years as I have participated in BM. So, instead of rejecting all the “gawkers, partyers, yahoos” who don’t participate by assuming they can not or will not change, giving up on them and moving “our art festival” to somewhere/how they will be less likely to participate, we need to welcome them into the tribe by providing ways to engage them from where they are at. Burning Man may be our only chance to really reach them and help them realize that they need to be the change they want to see.

I think its ok for BMorg to coordinate the sponsorship of some art. However if ALL their energy gets put into supporting just that and none to encouraging participation then I think that's a problem. I agree that creating a committee may distance people from the process of making it happen for themselves. Maybe we just need to create greater awarness of the lack of participation problem through this and other Forums.

Lastly, hats off to the many theme camps along Mercury Boulevard last year. They provided many small-scale hands-on anybody-can-participate activities. I spent a whole afternoon rambling about enjoying their activities. I myself often feel left out of the major art or music projects that are "put on" as show, performance/entertainment. There's not enough opportunity there to participate.

Towards the end of more participation, if we as a collective decide to go that way, might be to encourage more art to be participatory, not simply "interactive".

Sorry for the long post, I've got to try harder to be more succint. That's hard for a writer.

Hawk · Post by **Hawk** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:26 pm

I can’t help but giggle when the periodic posts from old burns come around. Touting the glory days of old and how they relay new what art was back then.

If the burn is what makes burning man for you than you might be rite. It might be over. May I remind you that the burn really only accounts for about 1.5 hours out of the week long event.

I will never understand how anyone expected Burning man to stay the same. Yes I to thing the burning of the man has become lame. In 2004 it seemed like a lot of people did not come to the burn and that is ok. It is just one part of the event.

Yes there was les art in 2004. Did you make some? No? If so than you are to blame.

Even with less art there is still amazing art every year including last year. So to say there was NO good art last year is just stupid.

Have fun at what ever you decide to do next year.

Apollonaris Zeus · Post by **Apollonaris Zeus** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:54 pm

to change or bring back what BM was in the past will take more then Art!

Visual art is only about 30% of the experience. Its the people that make the event. We are just attracting a low quality of the masses. The only way to change that is to get the people to live outside their norm! That's what attacted me back in the years. RV's, hanging out at center camp all day long drinking coffee and bigger is better attitude in art doesn't do it. Add the law enforcement and how could the event not change for the worst.

Less is more! But it will take rules to make it better. But it that will solve part of the problem because this event needs to move to private lands so it can become free of the rules that the BLM and police impose on BM.

There have been enought suggestions posted on this board to enact a return of the past. If the owners of the event don't wish to make those changes then the event as it once was is doomed!

A II Z

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:29 pm

Hawk wrote: I will never understand how anyone expected Burning Man to stay the same. ...Yes there was les art in 2004....Even with less art there is still amazing art every year including last year. So to say there was NO good art last year is just stupid.

I dont think anyone is expecting it to stay the same, or saying that there is NO good art either.

moonbeam327 · Post by **moonbeam327** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:08 pm

but after reading all the post on this thread i started thinking is there anything else that might be causing a so called "decline" it what burning man should be. It just just a thought but something in me rings strong just thinking that the increase in the number of people.. from 20 to 35000 might have something to do with it.

In a smaller group social control would make it less possible to be a spectator.. but as groups get bigger and bigger its easier to sit back and have others do things.. or have that mentality and there is less pressure from society to do something. I dont think newbies are necessarily the problem.. but it is soo easy to just buy a ticket, show up, not really offer anything, take take take, not really follow the rule etc. when there are soooo many people.

just a though..

I wish.. i could have been part of burning man when there were 20 ,100 or even 800.

I think the pure number of people showing up now has to have something to do with what is happening to burning man. it might not be the only thing that seems to be changing burning man but its probably part of it.

geekster · Post by **geekster** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 8:32 pm

Personally, I think BM05 has the chance to be best event in a long time.

mars · Post by **mars** » Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:57 pm

I wish.. i could have been part of burning man when there were 20 ,100 or even 800.

I do too, but then it would have been 22, 102, and 802. That's why it's now 35,000.

Ranger Genius · Post by **Ranger Genius** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 8:57 pm

I wish.. i could have been part of burning man when there were 20 ,100 or even 800.

You can. We call them regional burns.

I think this thread has become hung up on the supposed problem of art (one which I, frankly, don't see). The original post bemoaned the fall of the sense of community, of synchronicity, of the feeling of whimsy and spontaneity, complaining that the feel of the event had been destroyed by beaurocracy. This is a complaint I have heard from many old-timers, who begrudge the johnnies-come-lately, whom they feel are there just for a party or to be spectators. While many of the new inititiates are cast from this mold, a great many more are not; I personally, as a neophyte myself, resent the implication that burning man should be an exclusive club. Just because something that they felt was a good thing has been ruined (read as: changed), they feel that it is no longer worth it.

Burned Out was complaining that there was a lack of a feeling of community, which I think is telling: the only place that feeling would be lacking is in himself. What's key is that HE doesn't feel like a part of the community anymore. There are a lot of unbearable asshats at burning man, as anywhere, but the most significant human interactions I have ever experienced have been at burning man. I don't know the real names of the majority of the people I genuinely call friends.

Art at burning man is only important insofar as it contributes to the community. Sure, I'd like to see more big art, especially if it's interactive. But even if it went away altogether, it wouldn't significantly change what burningman is, and has always been, about: community. There are too many people at burning man for all the wrong reasons, it is true. Trying to find a way to get more big, impressive art projects is not going to solve that problem. I'd like to see a lot more small, interactive pieces that encourage social interaction. My favorite example was the quest-o-matic I saw in 2003: three wheels, one with a radial street, one with a circular street, and one with a task. Spin all three and get your quest: gives you an excuse to go interact with someone you otherwise would not have. Trade it for a dozen fire-spitting dragons any day.

robotland · Post by **robotland** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:16 am

Well said, R.G..
I'm a sculptor in the Default World, and looking forward to my third burn. After the first year, I was CERTAIN that if I attended for long enough I would inevitably contribute a big, playa-based art piece. Our camp was based in Hushville, and we interacted relatively little with our neighbors because we were all busy rubberneckin' and slackjawin' at the Wonder That Is Black Rock City. The next year I went alone, and spent a lot of time getting to know my fellow villagers; I brought makings for little projects and gifts, and spent less energy inspecting the Big Projects and more time exploring the back streets and corners. Creativity is an enormous part of my existence, and I can't go a day without doing some form of creative activity, so it's sometimes hard for me to understand that most people aren't like that or don't feel confindent in their capacity to make art. A lot of the art that I encountered back in the streets had the amazing newness and uniqueness of things made by people who desperately wanted to make beauty but feared the reproach of their default peers, and found in BRC a place where they could express themselves without that fear.
Now I'm not sure if I'd make a big playa artwork at all- There are lots of stumbling blocks for a solo artist coming from 2000 miles away- But I know I'll make some things for my village. The biggest installation I've ever made would have been lost in the vastness of the open playa, although it seemed big enough in a gallery setting.
There's certainly a place for big art, and it'd be terrible not to have any. But the real truths and gifts that I took home from the playa had little to do with grandeur and spectacle.

swampdog · Post by **swampdog** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:13 pm

AZ said:

We are just attracting a low quality of the masses

made me chuckle. masses by definition are of varying quality (and half are always below average)

I think Geekster is right, 2005 is going to be great. I'm a second year burner, last year I was just soakin' up the wonder and probably a "break even" contributor. This year I'm comin' back BIG. It seemed like about half of the people last year were new (maybe because newbies like me tend to meet other newbies). If enough of the second or third years come back inspired, and enough of the old hands get fired up, and the borg2 gets things rolling, well, 2005 may be the one that people talk about as the big one where we got over our growing pains.

The decline of BurningMan

This is only a thought

yeah, that's it!