If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

[Lonesomebri]

I prefer being out on the dust, on grass

Rather than out on the grass, on dust.

...and Fishy, don't you got a lawn mower attachment for that thing?

[Eric]

People show a grass field for Burning Man, and all I can think about is the hidden crap (literally) that people would be walking in on the weekend. At least on the playa you can see the wet-spots and "piles". I'd also feel extremely sorry for the LNT crew trying to do clean-up and any insects or wildlife that lived in or near the field. Visions of Glastonbury dance in my head. Yech.

[BoyScoutGirl]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned: the playa is -- almost literally -- a blank slate.

Everything from the flatness to the emptiness and even the color makes the playa a canvas for art and experiences. The expansiveness gives the art scale and space and otherworldliness. Chance encounters between wanderers feel, to me, more intimate out there in the expanse. Getting lost in a dust storm could mean really, really getting lost, possibly for a health-threateningly long time. Glimpsing a mutant vehicle through a passing drift of dust and then encountering later to realize it is much bigger than you at first thought... these are magical encounters.

Thanks to LNT efforts, it's a blank slate every time, so even "old" ideas can be re-imagined.

I try not to be artsy-fartsy, but I truly believe that the fact that we create and re-create every year is so powerful because we're starting from a blank playa each time: a combination of ephemerality and do-it-yourself and staking a creative and emotional claim against nothingness. I've been to one regional and the landscape forced a layout that was confusing. It gave everything all this extra context and baggage, a sense of "look at what I stumbled upon in the woods" versus "We're alone together on an alien planet and look at what everyone made!"

[Captain Goddammit]

If fucking up all your expensive gear makes you so happy, just invite me over with a sledgehammer. I'll make you just as happy as that fucking corrosive dust does.
I'm not necessarily saying Black Rock Desert isn't a great place to hold the event, but the fact that it's so dusty, with such destructive-to-expensive-equipment dust, is NOT one of the advantages. Anyone who thinks it is either has money to throw away like water, or isn't one of the people who provides some of that awesome shit the rest of you look at while walking around.

Is it obvious I'm not a fan of that chassis-rusting, tire-rotting, engine-choking, aluminum-oxidizing, bearing-grinding, paint-scratching mother fucking dust?

[GreyCoyote]

Capt, generally you and I sort of think in similar ways. (Yeah, I know, be very afraid! hehehe). But after reading BoyScoutGrrls take on things I must admit I'm swayed by the "new canvas / dust wipes us clean" ethos.

I really can't imagine a dustless burn. It's just disheartening. I know that SHIT gets into everything (and kills it, and sometimes most spectacularly), but it just wouldn't be the same without it.

And having said that, I'm also here to admit that I'm darned tired of corroded metal, damaged gear, and perma-stained clothes/tents/etc. Yeah, the dust SUCKS. But I hope I never have a 'Burn where the playa doesn't grace me with her dust.

(So. Is that just sick, or what? I think I need a therapist... or at least a beer with a bacon chaser...)

[BBadger]

I don't like fucking up (expensive) gear, but what I do bring I fully expect to either: get trashed, be resilient enough to withstand the trip, or be something I'll need to upkeep to return back to its prior condition. The dust is definitely not an advantage for gear, but hey, it's how it goes.

Moreover, if your stuff is so damn valuable and fragile, if it's such an insurmountable pain and expense to bring, maintain and replace it, the simple answer is: don't bring it to the playa.

We'll understand. It might be Too Bad (tm) that you in particular aren't bringing something, but in the end there will always be someone else to bring something equally interesting or entertaining to replace it. That never-ending revolving door of people whose services aren't indispensable.

On another note...

One thing I don't like about grass is that, for large groups of people, vehicles, etc. it usually turns into torn up muddy/dirty land. It's like wrecking areas with grazing herds. At least the playa gets "resurfaced" every year with water. Unless the new area is going to have the same properties, or people forced to utilize cobbled paths, the venue is not going to last very long. Imagine what that formerly pristine green field is going to look like after a week of bus-sized mutant vehicles, bikes (which I had riding on grass), foot-traffic, and infrastructure setup. It's bad enough my local bus stop has to be periodically resodded because of foot traffic from the side-walk to the curb.

I don't think I'd trust the grass much either for the same reasons Eric mentions. Stuff will get lost in there -- like sharp object -- or maybe feces and other gross shit. Obscured holes may form in the top-soil, introducing a tripping hazard; clumps of grass will be all around; cigarette butts, trash, broken glass, etc. may get lost. I'm not going to want to walk on that!

[lucky420]

BBadger, I love your brain

[Captain Goddammit]

The only thing I'm directly arguing against is the idea that playa dust is a good thing.
It isn't.
Oh, and the fact that so much equipment gets fucked up isn't a good thing either.

Yeah I know what I'm getting into, I've been going a long time. And yeah Black Rock Desert is probably the best option.
But playa dust as one of it's advantages? Not from the standpoint of the logistics providers.
There's a damn good reason almost no one will rent trucks or cars or RVs for Burning Man!

[remi]

^^ Respectfully disagree. It may be unhealthy, but I love playa dust like I love my morning joint, or eating bacon wrapped with bacon. Might not be a "good thing" for me, but I love it. I love pulling out a camping chair and watching the playa dust fly off of it. The nostalgic value that one instant gives me..

But in the case of health, I've had a bad case of playa lung for a month after the burn.. not the most fun.

[mdmf007]

The grass would only tur to mud if someone turned on the half mile long sprinklers. These turn farms are 2 hours north of the playa now, so the weather is pretty much the same. LNT? no problem, the grass gets peeled up every year sold at a discount and a new batch goes down to be green and fluffy by June.

[Elliot]

The grass would only tur to mud if someone turned on the half mile long sprinklers. These turn farms are 2 hours north of the playa now, so the weather is pretty much the same. LNT? no problem, the grass gets peeled up every year sold at a discount and a new batch goes down to be green and fluffy by June.

Of course I love the idea of walking on a nice lawn. But I also share the fear of things like broken glass "being allowed" to hide in the grass by those all-included burners I have ranted against. (And the bathroom problem, yes.)

The Playa Dust itself? Look at practically anything in the world, and you may see it has both benefits and drawbacks. Like many, I have enjoyed being enveloped in the stuff, but it sure is corrosive.

Now.... I have long wondered: Those turf farms.... Do they replace the soil that is peeled off with each crop?

[BBadger]

The only thing I'm directly arguing against is the idea that playa dust is a good thing.
It isn't.
Oh, and the fact that so much equipment gets fucked up isn't a good thing either.

Yeah I know what I'm getting into, I've been going a long time. And yeah Black Rock Desert is probably the best option.
But playa dust as one of it's advantages? Not from the standpoint of the logistics providers.
There's a damn good reason almost no one will rent trucks or cars or RVs for Burning Man!

The dust is definitely not an advantage for equipment or skin or lungs. However, aside from the chemical properties of the dust, that cause it to corrode and excessively cling to stuff, it really is a nice substance to deal with. For me, it is one of the few forms of "dirt" that I "trust" to not injure me directly, or hide things that may injure me -- or at least not to the extent of other ground cover that is being used for that mass of people.

There are advantages. The fine-particle nature of the playa dust is an especially nice feature: I don't have to fear chipping a tooth on some chunk of sand if my food happens to get some playa dirt on it. Likewise, windstorms aren't especially abrasive to the skin or other items. I don't have to worry about stepping on rocks, or even sharp pebbles, mud-balls, or twisting my ankle on some hidden pot-holes. The ease of clean-up and poor ability to hide objects means that I don't have to worry that the next mound of grass I'm camping over will contain some hidden syringe, glass, or even bottle-cap lost in the turf. I also like the fact that the playa dust is essentially devoid of non-microscopic life, so I don't have to deal with bugs or other pests. Bugs can really ruin a trip.

So again, aside from its chemical nature, I really do like the properties of that dust.

[Elliot]

Ah.... Insects. I loathe insects. One more reason to embrace the Dust.

[Captain Goddammit]

I'll give you that, anything that kills bugs is good. I'm sure not saying grass would be ideal for burning man.
I just hate that fucking playa dust. If it wasn't so corrosive and it was nothing more than a matter of washing stuff off after BM I wouldn't hate it so much. But the stuff permanently fucks up expensive equipment. It's not that I mind getting dirty or dealing with whiteouts.

I don't have a better idea. I'm pretty sure Burning Man shouldn't move and is already in the best available place.

But fuck that fucking playa dust. Pave the playa!!!!!!

[FossaFerox]

I'll give you that, anything that kills bugs is good. I'm sure not saying grass would be ideal for burning man.
I just hate that fucking playa dust. If it wasn't so corrosive and it was nothing more than a matter of washing stuff off after BM I wouldn't hate it so much. But the stuff permanently fucks up expensive equipment. It's not that I mind getting dirty or dealing with whiteouts.

I don't have a better idea. I'm pretty sure Burning Man shouldn't move and is already in the best available place.

But fuck that fucking playa dust. Pave the playa!!!!!!

I'm not trying to rile you up, I'm just genuinely curious now. Let's say the playa dust weren't corrosive, didn't damage equipment, and didn't permanently infiltrate any surface it came into contact with. How would you feel about it then?

Would you be indifferent? Still dislike it? Be fond of it? If you could magically make next year a dustless year or a dusty year where the dust somehow damaged no equipment, which would you choose?

[Savannah]

Before you answer, remember 2009, the year 10,000 shell-shocked people stayed home because of the previous year's dust?

That was kinda magical.

[mdmf007]

Honestly the Blackrock is a great venue for the event and I love the grass idea. With the way legislation and taxation is going though I feel it is prudent to look at other venues for long term viability.

just my opinion and the planner in me.

MDMF

[tatonka]

got a free camper and brought that to the playa , it had a ant nest in the roof . They didnt survive I found a bunch in a bag with a choc bar , I took them out on the playa and set them free .
They walked around like they were on hot rocks , I called my buddy over to show him ,and just then the wind picked up and they were gone

[Captain Goddammit]

If it weren't so destructively corrosive I wouldn't mind the playa dust.

While I'm not necessarily a proponent of a grass surface Burning Man, I don't think all the anti-grass arguments are completely solid.
If you're that worried about stepping on glass or used needles, wear shoes! I never go shoeless at BM even if I wear nothing else. There is always a foot injury hazard. People walk around on grass at parks and big events all the time.
The bare dirt playa streets get thoroughly rutted and potholed at least as bad as if there was grass. Maybe worse.
Grass can suck to ride bikes on compared to smooth hard playa, but we don't always have smooth hard packed playa. I remember a year or two when bike riding was next to impossible because the playa was so silty.

[Elorrum]

In August, I wouldn't mind an endless area of dry grass, and dirt ... not the sticky everything is covered with it, playa dust. I'm thinking of the kind of dirt that you take everything from the car and put it right away, dirty, but well, in comparison, luxury dirt. oh well, one can dream.

I think I would travel as far as some already do, by car or plane, but I don't think I could go every year.

[theCryptofishist]

I dunno, Elorrum. "Dried grass" translated itself into "foxtails" when I read that.

[Captain Goddammit]

One good rain during Burning Man on that fucking playa dust will change at least a few people's minds about how great that shit is, even if there's no better idea for where to hold the event. I'm still not arguing for grass but if it were to rain, we'd be wishing we had grass!

[theCryptofishist]

Rain on grass sounds like a pretty nasty mud problem, too.

[Dr. Pyro]

we'd be wishing we had grass!

From my experience, you can't swing a dead cat out there without hitting somebody with grass.

[Elorrum]

I dunno, Elorrum. "Dried grass" translated itself into "foxtails" when I read that.

yep, and burs, and those corkscrew things. and regular old dirt.

[theCryptofishist]

Doc, you had that dead cat out there, again? You're Barbie Death Camp and Wine Bistro, not Skinny Kitty Teahouse.

[Token]

Now.... I have long wondered: Those turf farms.... Do they replace the soil that is peeled off with each crop?

What do you think the JOTS service trucks do with their load?

It all gets composted and used in the farms.

Some goes to a large garlic farm near by too.

Yum.

[BBadger]

If it weren't so destructively corrosive I wouldn't mind the playa dust.

While I'm not necessarily a proponent of a grass surface Burning Man, I don't think all the anti-grass arguments are completely solid.
If you're that worried about stepping on glass or used needles, wear shoes! I never go shoeless at BM even if I wear nothing else. There is always a foot injury hazard. People walk around on grass at parks and big events all the time.
The bare dirt playa streets get thoroughly rutted and potholed at least as bad as if there was grass. Maybe worse.

The thing with grass is that it hides the holes, hazards and other junk within the sod. Holes are also hidden by the softer overlayer, not just ruts that appear after heavy traffic; are these going to be smoothed-over each year? For objects, these are difficult to identify and remove and can injure peoples' feet even with sandals or other summer footwear. Sure, on the playa there are lost objects that get missed too, but unlike a grass turf, they're more easily identified, and if not found are usually hidden in ways that aren't going to cause injury. The constant resurfacing also helps with the "clean slate" aspect of the playa, rather than just having the greenery grow over whatever is down below.

mdmf007's description of that field that has routine turnover is an interesting prospect, though the ground would still need to be checked and the undersurface smoothed after heavier traffic.

Grass can suck to ride bikes on compared to smooth hard playa, but we don't always have smooth hard packed playa. I remember a year or two when bike riding was next to impossible because the playa was so silty.

It can be rough to ride at times on the playa, but even in silty years a large part of the playa is ridable; also poor riding conditions are generally an exceptional condition. For grass, it is always a pain to ride upon.

[Captain Goddammit]

Goddammit don't be making sensible difficult-to-argue with counterpoints. I'm trying to have a lazy day today.

[Captain Goddammit]

Although I'll still say I've walked on acres and acres of grass in my life and have yet to find it anywhere near as dangerous as you're making it out to be!