Custom Built Camp Structure

[Swope904]

This is a custom shade structure/base camp for multiple people. This would allow multiple people to camp together, store their cars and bikes, and have a base camp with a grill/fire pit and bathroom, shower etc.

This is something that is completely in planning. I plan on adding zippered cut outs for box fans to be mounted towards the top of the tent for air circulation. It will have 4 struts In the middle supporting the roof and have 14" spikes in the playa and tied down.

Materials:
2" PVC Pipe
60x40 Heavy Duty Tarp
2" PVC connectors

My Concerns are the following
-Being square and covered with a huge 60x40 tarp. Even with eight 14" spikes in the playa with a good secured rope will I need to worry about wind if a bad 50+mph storm comes threw?

[Captain Goddammit]

I'd be thinking about using metal… fence poles work well. PVC gets kinda flexy.
How are you planning to attach the corner connectors? That's going to be a critical point.

[FossaFerox]

I'd recommend not using PVC. Use 1" EMT conduit with canopy fittings instead. ysbw.com is a fantastic supplier. You'll also be better off using tarps strung individually around each section rather than one giant one. Easier to set up, you get wind spill between the tarps to make it less of a sail, and much less expensive. Everywhere I've ever looked a tarp half the size is less than half the price.

Also, for something that big 14" spikes are NO WHERE NEAR enough. That thing will turn into a kite and kill one of your neighbors. You need 24" at a BARE minimum, staked out at angles, preferably 30". And you need a lot of them.

Remember, you don't take chances with this stuff. If you build something that big you could easily get someone injured or killed if it breaks free. Overkill is the bare minimum and when in doubt double it.

Beyond that, no fire pits (you can have a burn barrel but it needs to be elevated, contained, and away from anything flammable including your shade structure) and a private portopotty bathroom is serious overkill for anything less than a large theme camp. If your group is that big hopefully someone has been before and can steer you right as far as what sorts of things you'll actually want in this communal space. For example, storing cars in your shade structure is pretty silly.

60x40 sounds big until you see it. Remember that each tent (even smallish tents) will end up taking close to 10x10 when you factor in space to stake it out, leaving an entrance, etc. A decent sized kitchen for 10-20 people is going to be 10x20 feet by itself.

Oh, and vertical walls take a TON of wind load. You better stake the hell out of that thing. I'm talking 3' of half inch rebar staked out at a 40 degree angle, and for the love of god cap your rebar.

[trilobyte]

IMO, PVC pipes work with monkey hut style structures because they have tension and play upon the material's natural tendency to bend (especially when exposed to the sun for a couple hours), and generally have the right kind of flex to be able to bend (and not break) when the wind kicks up.

What it looks like you're proposing is the opposite of that. It looks like many, many fail points. For a frame structure, I'd use metal.

If this is your first burn, you may want to look into either camping with an established camp, or having someone with more experience in your group take the lead on designing structures for the extreme environment. It's not that you can't do it or wouldn't have interest in doing it, it's that the job tends to be significantly easier for anyone who's ever been out there, and significantly harder for anyone who hasn't. Plus there's a stress issue - all week long, whenever the wind got dicey you'd likely be fighting the urge to leave what you're doing and check on the camp.

[Elliot]

Ah, the captain beat me to it. I would also use metal, since PVC tends to break suddenly -- almost shatter. And I would use MUCH more than just eight 14 inch spikes in the ground. As you suggest it, I would go to Winnemucca and take a picture of it when it flies by.

Keep in mind that the tarp will be fastened only along the edges. Thus it will become a giant air foil or sail when the wind gets under it. I use a 40 x 40 tarp, and I have had to cut numerous vents in it to keep it under control. This tarp was originally 60 x 40 (a hay tarp), and I was way out of my league the first time I used it -- only dumb luck it did not "go to Winnemucca".

For 2014 I'm replacing the 40 x 40 with several smaller ones.

I applaud your initiative, Sean. You are thinking ahead, you are planning -- really using your brain. You will do well on the Playa.

Have you read the Survival Guide and the rest of the First-timer Information? The web site has sooooooo much information!

EDIT: I see that several others also have posted already!

[Swope904]

I was looking into PVC because its light wight easy to handle and work with and a lot easier to get a hold oh for me personally then metal.

Also I was planning on using 2 inch pipe which doesn't have to much flex to it. Better yet I'd like to see someone try to bind 2 inch pipe that's in a connected structure like I'm talking about. So I;m not worry do much about "flex" per say cause I don't think it will much.

How do I plan on connecting the ends? The fittings for the PVC are pretty tight and its designed to be that way for a good seal. I figured I could hand tighten it as much as I can and that would be enough. You wouldn't believe how hard it can be to separate two pieces of PVC that are put together well. The only thing I thought about doing is drilling holes through the connectors and pipe and secure them together with zip ties if i really needed to. But I don't wanna damage the pipe to much and also realigning holes with the PVC and connectors could be a real pain for setting up and taking down as well.

My main concern was the wind pushing it over. I mean im just concerned on BIG BOX vs HIGH WINDS.


All my info and plans can change and am willing to all suggestions im just gonna weed out a couple of details that aren't as clear as plain text.

[FossaFerox]

Trilo is steering you right. When people build with PVC they do it to make flexible structures that deal with the wind by bending and swaying. They rely on arches with no hard corners. Boxy PVC is a very bad idea.

If you have access to PVC you probably have access to EMT. Home Depot sells it. Lowe's sells it. OSH sells it. Random electrical supply places sell it. It's incredibly common and not expensive, nor is it that much heavier.

As for the "You wouldn't believe how hard it is to separate PVC" bit, you wouldn't believe how much force a 70+ MPH gust of wind can exert on a perpendicular surface.

[Lonesomebri]

Build it as planned....but could you place it somewhere downwind from my camp, yet still entertainingly within view?

[Elliot]

Sean, I'm thinking you might be better off building a small structure your first year. Then you get a week to observe bigger structures, and maybe see some "good" wind, and you would learn tons from that. The Playa is simply unlike anything you have ever known.

What do you want this 60 x 40 for anyway? I believe you said there are only two of you?

[Swope904]

Okay Im getting what everyone's getting at.

- I need to use metal at least 1"
- I need a minim of 24" steaks for something this size and a lot of them
- Using multiple tarps instead of one giant one

This is just my first attempt. Yes I am a Virgin. No im not joining a theme camp cause none of them respond to emails and im not joining a random theme camp just to do it. What I design and how I use it is my own business so please don't tell me how to plan my burn. I have been studying the BM site for years but an fresh new to the forms, never knew they were here.

Thanks for the input everyone. This is something I wasn't even planning on building till 2015 just because of the money. Gives me time to come up with anther horrible design

[Swope904]

Sean, I'm thinking you might be better off building a small structure your first year. Then you get a week to observe bigger structures, and maybe see some "good" wind, and you would learn tons from that. The Playa is simply unlike anything you have ever known.

What do you want this 60 x 40 for anyway? I believe you said there are only two of you?

EDIT: YESS! I think my first year in 2014 I will be studying everybodys setups.

This is suppose to be for a group of friends camping together.

And the actual size of the structure is 25ft L 15ft H and 15Ft W. The Tarp itself is 60x40 to wrap complete around the structure and go under it. to protect us from rain and dust.

[Elliot]

I think I understand what you mean with wrapping the whole structure, including floor, in one tarp, but I fear it would be impractical. Points for coming up with ideas, though.

On floors, it is common to use old rugs. Not wall-to-wall carpeting, or shag, but smooth-woven area rugs with sewn edges. You would not be able to carry such on your Cavalier, but for 2015 you will probably have a truck. Start picking up cheap and free rugs now. Out here I see quite a few 8x10s for around $50, and sometimes free, on Craigslist. You secure these to the ground with 8" or so nails/spikes in the corners.

About the Dust.... You will need to embrace the Dust. It WILL get in everywhere.

So... yeah... you are on track for learning in 2014 and going whole hog in 2015.

[Captain Goddammit]

What I design and how I use it is my own business

If it lands on my camp because you built it on poor principals I'm gonna make it my business.

[Elliot]

.
Awww Captain, I bet the young gent has plans for something artistic he want to surprise us with. Nothing wrong with that!

Sean, as you have figured out by now, your initial design set off a big alarm. Now that we have that under control, all is well. Keep learning.

[Captain Goddammit]

I'm sure you're right. But this is why I sleep in a solid structure and not a tent!

[Swope904]

What I design and how I use it is my own business

If it lands on my camp because you built it on poor principals I'm gonna make it my business.

Im sorry captain, Im referring to the person that said how many people and what I use it store and put amenities in is what i am referring to. I would never put someone else's life in danger. I would not go about trying to construct something without a plan. Which is something I don't have yet. I am just trying to learn and would never want to hurt anyone!

I think I understand what you mean with wrapping the whole structure, including floor, in one tarp, but I fear it would be impractical. Points for coming up with ideas, though.

On floors, it is common to use old rugs. Not wall-to-wall carpeting, or shag, but smooth-woven area rugs with sewn edges. You would not be able to carry such on your Cavalier, but for 2015 you will probably have a truck. Start picking up cheap and free rugs now. Out here I see quite a few 8x10s for around $50, and sometimes free, on Craigslist. You secure these to the ground with 8" or so nails/spikes in the corners.

About the Dust.... You will need to embrace the Dust. It WILL get in everywhere.

So... yeah... you are on track for learning in 2014 and going whole hog in 2015.

Yes I am just going through ideas. You pretty much hit the nail on the head on that post man. Im just scoping everything out and learning the ins and outs for this year. And over the next few years as I get used to things my camping will get better as my equipment does and knowledge of the playa.

[FossaFerox]

What I design and how I use it is my own business . . .
Im referring to the person that said how many people and what I use it store and put amenities in is what i am referring to.

Again, the "amenities" are your neighbors' business. "Fire pits" are a huge fucking no-no.

http://survival.burningman.com/rules-re ... rFbMPRDvzY

Moreover, you try burning things in your PVC death-trap and now we've got a host of other problems. Personally I'd rather not be downwind of phosgene gas.

http://www.burningman.com/preparation/e ... rFbFvRDvzY

And by the way 15' tall is also really excessive. Keep in mind you'd need to stake that out 15+ feet in every direction. Your 25x15 structure then has a footprint of 55x45 meaning a whopping 15% of the space taken up by your foot print is usable. The rest is obstructed by guylines. Space is a premium. Don't be that guy.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to be a dick. I was trying to be helpful. But if you're going to act like a child I'm not going to go out of my way to shove my advice down your throat. What do I know, I'm just a formally trained structural engineer who designed, sourced and supervised construction on a 2,500 square foot structure for this past burn. Just do me a favor and camp on the early side of the city.

[GreyCoyote]

Swope: if you want to do a large shaded space, consider using multiple smaller panels instead of a single monolithic tarp. Design it to leak air intentionally at the overlap points. Also design the panels to self-jettison along a couple of the edges and just flap when the loading becomes unsafe. Then, instead of having a dangerous, monolithic wing soaring across the city killing people and art, you will instead have a "blown-out" structure right where you left it that just needs some bungies reset to be ship-shape in a few minutes.

Design for controlled failure in the cover, and brute force in the frame.

BTW: one of the reasons I am a fan of domes is they have a hard sidewall. The first year I was nearly killed by a flying popup shade canopy. It missed me (barely), bounced off my car, and collected the neighbors dome, where it stopped. After the wind stopped we disentangled it from the dome. The dome, and occupants, were completely unharmed. The car spent a week in the body shop. And I started building a dome for the next burn after realizing those wiley old turtles had the right idea when it came to evolutionary structure designs.

[AntiM]

Wrapping a tarp completely over, around and under will make the structure a fucking oven. We began with a steel pipe square structure with a single tarp for the roof and side, with separate tarp folded up the side for the floor. A box design, eight foot tall, with angled side tarps draped over the vehicles on the side. A box, basically. Used it for three years before giving up that design. It shook and lifted in the wind, even though it was very well guyed and staked. And hot... no airflow at all. Dust still got in. Couldn't watch the world walk by, which is the best part of being in camp on a lazy afternoon.

Now we have two carports tilted toward each other (clamshell) with a double thick camo covered open ended "living room" between them. The dust blows through, as does the air. Nice and cool. Plenty of sun protection, the tents are under the carports. Rain? Never been enough to be a problem, except at our regional, which has worse weather than the playa. The vehicles sit uncovered.

Fire pit? Pain in the ass unless you want to be tied to your camp all night, and haul out the ashes. Meh.

[Swope904]

What I design and how I use it is my own business . . .
Im referring to the person that said how many people and what I use it store and put amenities in is what i am referring to.

Again, the "amenities" are your neighbors' business. "Fire pits" are a huge fucking no-no.

http://survival.burningman.com/rules-re ... rFbMPRDvzY

Moreover, you try burning things in your PVC death-trap and now we've got a host of other problems. Personally I'd rather not be downwind of phosgene gas.

http://www.burningman.com/preparation/e ... rFbFvRDvzY

And by the way 15' tall is also really excessive. Keep in mind you'd need to stake that out 15+ feet in every direction. Your 25x15 structure then has a footprint of 55x45 meaning a whopping 15% of the space taken up by your foot print is usable. The rest is obstructed by guylines. Space is a premium. Don't be that guy.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to be a dick. I was trying to be helpful. But if you're going to act like a child I'm not going to go out of my way to shove my advice down your throat. What do I know, I'm just a formally trained structural engineer who designed, sourced and supervised construction on a 2,500 square foot structure for this past burn. Just do me a favor and camp on the early side of the city.

Right I get what your saying and yeah you kinda are being an asshole but hey i can be one too so its all good.

Again whatever type of amenities I bring into my own camp are my own business. If I wanna bring a coffee maker? I can. If i wanna bring water barrel? I can. So in this instance yes. the amenities I bring and how I use them have nothing to do with your burn. So you don't have to worry about now huh? Sounds good right? Cool.

Also I never said about bringing this idea to an event without a plan? When did I ever said that? did you READ the Original post? or the ones after? I clearly said these were IDEAS. Which is WHY im posting them here to get FEEDBACK. But instead of telling me how to improve my idea. Your just telling me not what to do and linking me to things I already know about.

Fire pit/burn barrels aren't a big fucking no no either. I am well aware of everything I bring and create I have to haul which is one of the first things anyone learns about BM and also that you have to protect the playa in the process not leaving behind any traces of scares or ash. nothing can be left behind as if no one has ever been there. I know this... But you assumed I had no idea lol. Like I have never read anything on this website before..

Im just trying to prove me point that your not here to help me in anyway. The only thing you have told me is that me idea wont work and that I should let someone else do it. That's not productive so please if you don't have anything to add productivity to this post anymore please don't respond.

Swope: if you want to do a large shaded space, consider using multiple smaller panels instead of a single monolithic tarp. Design it to leak air intentionally at the overlap points. Also design the panels to self-jettison along a couple of the edges and just flap when the loading becomes unsafe. Then, instead of having a dangerous, monolithic wing soaring across the city killing people and art, you will instead have a "blown-out" structure right where you left it that just needs some bungies reset to be ship-shape in a few minutes.

Design for controlled failure in the cover, and brute force in the frame.

BTW: one of the reasons I am a fan of domes is they have a hard sidewall. The first year I was nearly killed by a flying popup shade canopy. It missed me (barely), bounced off my car, and collected the neighbors dome, where it stopped. After the wind stopped we disentangled it from the dome. The dome, and occupants, were completely unharmed. The car spent a week in the body shop. And I started building a dome for the next burn after realizing those wiley old turtles had the right idea when it came to evolutionary structure designs.

Hey thanks for the tips Grey Coyote! Yeah I am already redesigning it with better materials, Different layout, and coverings so thanks!

Wrapping a tarp completely over, around and under will make the structure a fucking oven. We began with a steel pipe square structure with a single tarp for the roof and side, with separate tarp folded up the side for the floor. A box design, eight foot tall, with angled side tarps draped over the vehicles on the side. A box, basically. Used it for three years before giving up that design. It shook and lifted in the wind, even though it was very well guyed and staked. And hot... no airflow at all. Dust still got in. Couldn't watch the world walk by, which is the best part of being in camp on a lazy afternoon.

Now we have two carports tilted toward each other (clamshell) with a double thick camo covered open ended "living room" between them. The dust blows through, as does the air. Nice and cool. Plenty of sun protection, the tents are under the carports. Rain? Never been enough to be a problem, except at our regional, which has worse weather than the playa. The vehicles sit uncovered.

Fire pit? Pain in the ass unless you want to be tied to your camp all night, and haul out the ashes. Meh.

Thanks for the info on your experiences! See that is really helpful information unlike what some people post! That is something that I wouldn't have thought of early about being able to watch the people and day go by. Even though I had plans for cut outs for box fans and such to circulate air that is a good idea as well.

And yeah I don't mind haul trash. I mean id be hauling all of this structure anyways. A few more trash bags of ashes are not a big deal.

[Elliot]

Absolutely no need for fans to circulate air. The ever-present wind will do that for you. The only time you can expect minimal wind is in the mornings, when it is cool anyway. And you want to manhandle tarps and such in the mornings.

Don't worry about being talked to roughly, Sean. We are just scared -- afraid of catastrophic failure, which is a very legitimate concern. Fear is good, in this context.

Keep on inventing, and bouncing the ideas around for review.

[Swope904]

Absolutely no need for fans to circulate air. The ever-present wind will do that for you. The only time you can expect minimal wind is in the mornings, when it is cool anyway. And you want to manhandle tarps and such in the mornings.

Don't worry about being talked to roughly, Sean. We are just scared -- afraid of catastrophic failure, which is a very legitimate concern. Fear is good, in this context.

Keep on inventing, and bouncing the ideas around for review.

I understand where your coming from Elliot. But its all just ideas. I have no clue about the true weather on the playa. Which is a biggest problem for trying to design something to live in without ever truly experiencing the conditions described and only reading about them from a webpage and being described from someone online.

Having never even met someone that's even attended and being able to talk to them about the real experience and weather is a huge killer on design as well... Which is why im here... I APPRECIATE everything everyone said good and bad. Its all something I can take in and learn from. Lots of good info I learned from one post. So its a Win WIn either way

[Elliot]

I have no clue about the true weather on the playa.

None of us had our first year -- which is why you are doing the right thing to plan the big stuff for your second year. Meanwhile, you are learning, learning, learning.

[GreyCoyote]

Easy design point: 70 mph winds sustained for 5 mins, and 50 mph winds for hours. These are straight-line winds with a lift overall hitting at any point on the compass. The occasional macrocell with 80 mph down bursts. Vortex winds with center velocity of 90+ mph.

These are your conditions on the playa, along with the attendant dust and grit and tumbling canopies of the imprudent.

Design for this, and the ever present drunk, and you will survive the playa.

[FossaFerox]

Right I get what your saying and yeah you kinda are being an asshole but hey i can be one too so its all good.

Two important plot points you seem to be losing sight of. First, I was nothing but helpful until you acted like a child and got super defensive over what was a deeply flawed idea. My first two posts were extremely helpful with no malice or even sarcasm. You were the one who brought down the level of discourse.

Secondly, and more importantly, you're here hat-in-hand looking for help from people who know better than you. So stow your ego and listen to the people who are trying to help you rather than being a prick. People are trying to help you and not only are you not grateful, you're petulant. I'm sorry we're not hanging your MS Paint sketch on the fridge in center camp but if you came here expecting anything other than constructive criticism I don't think you understand how forums work.

Again whatever type of amenities I bring into my own camp are my own business. If I wanna bring a coffee maker? I can. If i wanna bring water barrel? I can. So in this instance yes. the amenities I bring and how I use them have nothing to do with your burn. So you don't have to worry about now huh? Sounds good right? Cool.

Again, if your "amenities" include things that put other people's lives at risk they are everyone's business. This includes any plan to have fire in an enclosed PVC/Tarpauline structure or any type of fire that does not meet the established guidelines. Do I care how you make your coffee? No, I never said anything of the sort. What I said was that fire pits are a terrible idea, you'll need to go with an elevated burn barrel, and you're the one who labeled that an attack on your amenities.

Also I never said about bringing this idea to an event without a plan? When did I ever said that? did you READ the Original post? or the ones after? I clearly said these were IDEAS. Which is WHY im posting them here to get FEEDBACK. But instead of telling me how to improve my idea. Your just telling me not what to do and linking me to things I already know about.

If you're honestly here for feedback then stop being so defensive when people try to steer you away from bad ideas.

Fire pit/burn barrels aren't a big fucking no no either. I am well aware of everything I bring and create I have to haul which is one of the first things anyone learns about BM and also that you have to protect the playa in the process not leaving behind any traces of scares or ash. nothing can be left behind as if no one has ever been there. I know this... But you assumed I had no idea lol. Like I have never read anything on this website before..

Again, fire pits throw embers. There's a reason the community burn gardens are all located downwind of all of the structures. Burn barrels are acceptable but as you didn't use the word barrel I tried to give you some helpful information. I posted the two links (which I assumed you had read and sincerely hoped you had) to remind you that this stuff is not trivial. The future of the event (LNT) and the lives of the other participants around you depend on you not doing anything that endangers their lives out of ignorance. I'm sorry that you feel like me pointing out you need an elevated burn barrel and not a fire pit seems to have upset you so very much.

Im just trying to prove me point that your not here to help me in anyway. The only thing you have told me is that me idea wont work and that I should let someone else do it. That's not productive so please if you don't have anything to add productivity to this post anymore please don't respond.

Again, read my first two posts, full of the essential info that you needed. Shit, read any of my other posts here. If it isn't silly/off-topic I'm here to be extremely helpful. It's the main reason I come to these forums at all. But fuck it, if you want to label my first two attempts to help you as malicious, so be it. Just don't camp anywhere near me. I'm done trying to help you.

[AntiM]

Box fans? That's just complicated.

[Swope904]

Two important plot points you seem to be losing sight of. First, I was nothing but helpful until you acted like a child and got super defensive over what was a deeply flawed idea. My first two posts were extremely helpful with no malice or even sarcasm. You were the one who brought down the level of discourse.

Secondly, and more importantly, you're here hat-in-hand looking for help from people who know better than you. So stow your ego and listen to the people who are trying to help you rather than being a prick. People are trying to help you and not only are you not grateful, you're petulant. I'm sorry we're not hanging your MS Paint sketch on the fridge in center camp but if you came here expecting anything other than constructive criticism I don't think you understand how forums work.


Right at first you started with great help and points and then it led downhill from there.. and i did re-read over things you linked me just for the sake of ensurement of what I knew. I don't have an ego. Yet I don't let people talk down to me and call me rude names as such. That I wont stand for. And I like how you call me ungrateful and petulant yet your the only that thinks this and even though im telling people thanks for the advice and pointers people are giving me Im completely ungrateful. Are you even reading what I say? I am in no way shape or form doing such. Im just trying to learn but not be hated in the process



Again, if your "amenities" include things that put other people's lives at risk they are everyone's business. This includes any plan to have fire in an enclosed PVC/Tarpauline structure or any type of fire that does not meet the established guidelines. Do I care how you make your coffee? No, I never said anything of the sort. What I said was that fire pits are a terrible idea, you'll need to go with an elevated burn barrel, and you're the one who labeled that an attack on your amenities.


Its all just thoughts. Ideas in planning. Just trouble shooting. Never once did I say I planned on taking this idea to the playa anytime soon... I never even said when I would? I don't even have the money to build anything or a ticket in my hand. so calm down buddy.



Again, fire pits throw embers. There's a reason the community burn gardens are all located downwind of all of the structures. Burn barrels are acceptable but as you didn't use the word barrel I tried to give you some helpful information. I posted the two links (which I assumed you had read and sincerely hoped you had) to remind you that this stuff is not trivial. The future of the event (LNT) and the lives of the other participants around you depend on you not doing anything that endangers their lives out of ignorance. I'm sorry that you feel like me pointing out you need an elevated burn barrel and not a fire pit seems to have upset you so very much.

I have always considered fire pits and a burn barrel the same thing. But you right I should have been more pacifistic. And right firepits through embers. Its a fire. they generally do that. Its common sense not to have a fire next to something flammable or something downwind from a flame. An ember can travel for miles before it fully goes out. And having a safety plan and fire extinguisher at the ready is absolutely necessary. I am well aware of the damage a fire could do to a tent city and would never go about endangering the lives of innocent people including children which I know are there.



Again, read my first two posts, full of the essential info that you needed. Shit, read any of my other posts here. If it isn't silly/off-topic I'm here to be extremely helpful. It's the main reason I come to these forums at all. But fuck it, if you want to label my first two attempts to help you as malicious, so be it. Just don't camp anywhere near me. I'm done trying to help you.

Yes you are right. Like I said they had great info until things turned into something they shouldn't have. Im not trying to fight im just trying to get info. which everyone seems to be very nice and has great stuff their sharing with me including yourself, which I have thanked them all for. If you don't wanna talk to me anymore that's fine. Thanks for the info.

[Elliot]

.
FossaFerox... how long since you were in that young fellow's shoes?

Let's all make an effort to be polite. It is all too easy to become over-exited with such an impersonal and imperfect form of communication as this is. An extra layer of good will would go a long way.

[Swope904]

Box fans? That's just complicated.

With some ceiling wires and some extension cords it wouldn't take but 5 min to rig something like that up. But it is also something that must be draws power and needs power. Plus from what Im hearing now Fans aren't needed unless its inside of a tent or some sort for when your sleeping or something for personal preference.

[Savannah]

An O2Cool battery-operated fan is nice. 8 D batteries. I don't know which model I have, so read reviews before you buy that one or another.

I use it in my tent in the mornings to buy a little time before the heat forces me out.

Outdoors, probably not going to want or need one, but with a battery-operated fan, you'll have the option to carry it from tent to shade structure, if you really want to.