Custom Built Camp Structure

[FossaFerox]

.
FossaFerox... how long since you were in that young fellow's shoes?

Let's all make an effort to be polite. It is all too easy to become over-exited with such an impersonal and imperfect form of communication as this is. An extra layer of good will would go a long way.

About a year. The difference is I didn't attack the people who offered to help me. I was extremely grateful to Figjam and everyone else who explained why some of my ideas were flawed.

See if you can spot the difference between these two posts...
viewtopic.php?f=277&t=64613&p=944054&hi ... am#p944054
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=67958&p=986867&hili ... am#p986867
...and his...
viewtopic.php?f=277&t=68063&p=989930#p989930

...and you'll understand why I'm a little bit frustrated that someone took my advice as an attack. My first two posts were super constructive and he acted like I insulted his mother. It's like having a playa-gifted otter pop thrown back in my face because we ran out of Cherry...

[Canoe]

Seems like a candidate to end up having BLM fine his ass and kick him out, with the those-affected's lawyers chasing after him if his shit hurts or kills anyone.
A shame, since what does and doesn't work, and what is and isn't allowed, is well known and well documented, and as the posts above and elsewhere show, are well disposed to explain them.

p.s.
pay attention to

Easy design point: 70 mph winds sustained for 5 mins, and 50 mph winds for hours. These are straight-line winds with a lift overall hitting at any point on the compass. The occasional macrocell with 80 mph down bursts. Vortex winds with center velocity of 90+ mph.

But note that surrounding structures can result in higher wind pressure on your structure than you would expect from a given wind speed. As in, a simple 75 mph wind on a 160 sq.ft. profile can range from a simple 2,250 lbs. to a 4,500 lbs. load.

Your 40x60 tarp is 2,400 sq. ft.. As a sail, add a 75 mph wind, and it has the potential of collecting 33,750 lbs. to 67,500 lbs. of force, for an instant or two - before your structure fails, or is lifted up and dropped on your neighbors, before dragging the whole mess across a swath of BRC, with lines & poles flaying everything in its path. So pay really really really close attention to the types of structures that allow wind pressure to not build up or to escape. Like multiple panels where the pressure can escape between them.

Something as simple, small & light as an EZ-up...

In 2006, I watched a ez-up-canopy tent fly 50 feet into the air and come crashing down into a girls chest. She got a free helicopter ride - to Reno ER.

And the following is for RV/Trailer awnings, but also applies to insufficiently designed, built or secured structures and their parts.

While watching an awning “uninstall” may provide some entertainment value to those nearby, it tends to terrify those downwind. Ripping off and blowing away, an awning structure can really hurt someone, or damage/destroy vehicles or shelters. Even before leaving the RV, it can seriously damage those trying to restrain it as it flaps around.

[Canoe]

p.s.s.
There are numerous posts throughout eplaya showing failed structures, their design and the ugly aftermath. Rather than having to painstakingly convince anew every newbie that comes along, has anyone ever started a Failed Structure thread?

If we can direct someone to a single on-topic thread for them to browse and see that some things just don't work and what the failures look like, it could save a lot of time and a lot of grief, both for them and for the people trying to prevent the life-threatening and o.k.-now-we're-having-a-horrible-burn failures. Then perhaps they'd search for the threads that detail the various structures types, designs & materials that have a proven record of success on-playa, be it for implementing one of those designs, a variation of, or to at least identify the criteria or components they'll need for what they hope to create.

[Savannah]

Two important plot points you seem to be losing sight of. First, I was nothing but helpful until you acted like a child and got super defensive over what was a deeply flawed idea. My first two posts were extremely helpful with no malice or even sarcasm. You were the one who brought down the level of discourse.

Secondly, and more importantly, you're here hat-in-hand looking for help from people who know better than you. So stow your ego and listen to the people who are trying to help you rather than being a prick. People are trying to help you and not only are you not grateful, you're petulant. I'm sorry we're not hanging your MS Paint sketch on the fridge in center camp but if you came here expecting anything other than constructive criticism I don't think you understand how forums work.


Right at first you started with great help and points and then it led downhill from there.. and i did re-read over things you linked me just for the sake of ensurement of what I knew. I don't have an ego. Yet I don't let people talk down to me and call me rude names as such. That I wont stand for. And I like how you call me ungrateful and petulant yet your the only that thinks this and even though im telling people thanks for the advice and pointers people are giving me Im completely ungrateful. Are you even reading what I say? I am in no way shape or form doing such. Im just trying to learn but not be hated in the process

He's not the only one who thinks so.

Perhaps you didn't mean to look that way, but that's how it seemed to me too. I didn't say anything at the time. I'm sure it's not what you meant to convey, just as people weren't trying particularly to ruffle you.

People are just trying to help you--and not end up with a cracked skull when an ill-secured shade comes crashing down the street. The advice on ePlaya is very solid. ("Hello, you've reached the Department of Over-Engineering.") However, if you find it hard to have your ideas analyzed or criticized perhaps rather bluntly, you probably won't like interacting with us very much and might do better simply reading, reading, reading. There's tons of info here for the taking.

Last year or the year before, I DID see a carport go cartwheeling down the street faster than a man can run, although indeed, there were people running after it moments later. It wasn't even a windy day; just a freak gust. Could've killed someone. Many of us have seen a dome in mid-lift-off or flattened structures.

So we are a little serious about such things.

[FossaFerox]

Swope, I didn't think you were ungrateful until you started being extremely defensive and rude to me for trying to help you. Again, between my second and third posts your attitude changed considerably. But seriously...



No one wants to be that guy.

God/EMS help the people downwind of that guy...

Edit:
Swope isn't such a bad guy. We all have bad days but he's been a downright gentleman about the misunderstanding. No hard feelings.

[FIGJAM]

Read this.

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=33484

[Swope904]

Right, thanks for everyone's input. Even though its just a concept design at this point ill work on progressing to other ideas to something better suited for environment with the information that has been provided thankfully by you people.

p.s.s.
There are numerous posts throughout eplaya showing failed structures, their design and the ugly aftermath. Rather than having to painstakingly convince anew every newbie that comes along, has anyone ever started a Failed Structure thread?

If we can direct someone to a single on-topic thread for them to browse and see that some things just don't work and what the failures look like, it could save a lot of time and a lot of grief, both for them and for the people trying to prevent the life-threatening and o.k.-now-we're-having-a-horrible-burn failures. Then perhaps they'd search for the threads that detail the various structures types, designs & materials that have a proven record of success on-playa, be it for implementing one of those designs, a variation of, or to at least identify the criteria or components they'll need for what they hope to create.

A mod should make this. This would be something very useful.

[FIGJAM]

[Elliot]

...

A mod should make this. This would be something very useful.

Brand new lesson for you, young friend: The Burning Man style of community is a do-rocracy. Not sure about the spelling, but it means that when you notice something needs doing, you do it. Asking somebody else to do it for you is just not cricket around here.

And I see that Figjam started such a thread in 2010 -- link above.

[Savannah]

Right, thanks for everyone's input. Even though its just a concept design at this point ill work on progressing to other ideas to something better suited for environment with the information that has been provided thankfully by you people.

p.s.s.
There are numerous posts throughout eplaya showing failed structures, their design and the ugly aftermath. Rather than having to painstakingly convince anew every newbie that comes along, has anyone ever started a Failed Structure thread?

If we can direct someone to a single on-topic thread for them to browse and see that some things just don't work and what the failures look like, it could save a lot of time and a lot of grief, both for them and for the people trying to prevent the life-threatening and o.k.-now-we're-having-a-horrible-burn failures. Then perhaps they'd search for the threads that detail the various structures types, designs & materials that have a proven record of success on-playa, be it for implementing one of those designs, a variation of, or to at least identify the criteria or components they'll need for what they hope to create.

A mod should make this. This would be something very useful.

Figjam linked it for you. See above.

[Swope904]

Right I sall the link he provided and have been reading into it.

But I was talking about something more along the lines of a thread with links to different types of post to different information that could be locked and kept at the top of the shelter and camping section which is something I couldn't personally do. but that works as well too.

and thanks figjam.

[GreyCoyote]

Swope: since you are exploring new shelter ideas and working on a future encampment strategy, be sure also to check out domes (did I mention domes?) as well as monkey huts, tensegrities, and hexayurts. There is much mischief to be had in all of these structures, and perhaps one will speak to you or "click" with the ideas you presently have.

Be sure also to research ground fasteners extensively, especially the FIGJAM lag-bolt method, for holding things to the ground. In fact, all of the above structures are impossible but for the anchors, so spend a LOT of time noodling on these. The playa is a very different surface than most expect, and traditional anchors may work poorly or not at all.

[Swope904]

Swope: since you are exploring new shelter ideas and working on a future encampment strategy, be sure also to check out domes (did I mention domes?) as well as monkey huts, tensegrities, and hexayurts. There is much mischief to be had in all of these structures, and perhaps one will speak to you or "click" with the ideas you presently have.

Be sure also to research ground fasteners extensively, especially the FIGJAM lag-bolt method, for holding things to the ground. In fact, all of the above structures are impossible but for the anchors, so spend a LOT of time noodling on these. The playa is a very different surface than most expect, and traditional anchors may work poorly or not at all.

Yes I have looked into domes before I went into thinking about building one. That might be an option I consider at this point.

But where could I find the FIGJAM bolt method?

[FIGJAM]

Scroll down this page.......


viewtopic.php?f=277&t=67809

[Canoe]

But where could I find the FIGJAM bolt method?

Fast. Secure. No rebar/stake sticking up to trip, tear flesh or puncture the brain case.
Size them to match the load, or use more of them.

Super fast into and out of the playa with a cordless drill, or even a ratchet.
http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... 39#p919139
Screws tight to the ground with a low profile so there's minimal injury possible with far less severity with what's exposed

There are tons of gems people have discovered and posted on eplaya. There are lots of interesting ideas, but watch for things that are Playa-Tested©)'(. Things that have actually been used on the playa and have a successful track record, preferably with multiple confirmations of success. You want your efforts to work, with minimal on-playa effort required, so your time on the playa is spent on burning, not messing around with something that didn't work.
Start saving the photos and make a file where you summarize ideas. I like spreadsheets as I can assign a priority or groupings (applies to "hexayurt") so I can sort

[FIGJAM]

The playa is no place for destruct testing your plan!

That just happens.

[Captain Goddammit]

In general, any square structure is at a disadvantage in the wind, and needs to be really super over-built.
There's a chance we will get lucky again and have a mild week with no real windstorms to speak of, and you'll think everyone is being a crybaby. But maybe the wind will blow at freeway speed for a few hours and wreck house all over the place.
Back in 2000 the whole 3:00 plaza installation didn't get built because of such weather.

Oh... another vote for "forget the box fans". No one does that, and not because no one thought of it.
I brought one last year only because I'm known for bringing everything but never used it.

[Canoe]

... Oh... another vote for "forget the box fans". ...

I thought yours was for auxiliary propulsion?

What happens when the wind blowing through the box fan spins it faster than the current trying to drive it? Current supplied vs. current generated? Could be a way to get around the no fireworks rule?

[Elliot]

... Oh... another vote for "forget the box fans". ...

I thought yours was for auxiliary propulsion?

What happens when the wind blowing through the box fan spins it faster than the current trying to drive it? Current supplied vs. current generated? Could be a way to get around the no fireworks rule?

Ladies and gentlemen, you are listening to another episode of Thread Drift! -- the exiting saga of random excursions from the Original Poster Topic. This week's installment is... ... Exploding Electrical Apparatus!

(fanfare)

[FossaFerox]

fanfire*

[Elliot]

Dang!

[Captain Goddammit]

Actually you could probably generate enough electricity with a box fan to power your LED lights!

[Swope904]

Actually you could probably generate enough electricity with a box fan to power your LED lights!

That would be an amazing idea. I have seen people post about wind turbines... Im wondering if you could use the fan as a turbine and make a converter or rig one up. This is something Im gonna look into.

[Captain Goddammit]

I was just kidding!
Wind generators do exist out there but they are a rarity because they aren't practical from a cost/amount of gear/effectiveness standpoint.
For the amount of power my silly idea would generate you'd be better off with a car battery.
Or a flashlight.

[Captain Goddammit]

Oh jeez .... Damn you, now I'm going to have to put my volt meter on a box fan on a windy day and see exactly what happens...

[AntiM]

We had a neighbor in Hushville with a wind generator. The inverter alarming at five in the morning was annoying as fuck.
If you aren't bringing a genny, then batteries and solar are the best bet for modest camp needs.

[GreyCoyote]

Capt: I can save you the effort. A shaded pole fractional horsepower AC motor will have no output. There is no residual magnetism in the motor and no way to get voltage out if there was. However, I suspect that a directly commutated DC fan like FIGJAMs "endless breeze" might make a passable generator. Might be worth some effort there!

[theCryptofishist]

"In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"

[GreyCoyote]

"In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"

What? No sliding UP the stairs? Conservationist!!!

[TT120]

"In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"

What? No sliding UP the stairs? Conservationist!!!

You have to eat a couple random pills off the floor of Simons tent before you can slide UP stairs.....