Vehicle Passes and Burning Man Traffic Issues

[unjonharley]

unjonharley, no one has said yet that low income ticket holders can't buy a vehicle pass. Look above at Trilo's answer to Fishy.

I could give a rats ass about low income tickets... I think it is stupid to get a low income ticket and have the money to have arrive and set a camp.. The camp cost has always been higher than any ticket..

[unjonharley]

Ass, grass or gas no one rides this VW for free...larryhas pushed us back to the ""stoned"" age

Or is that to far(out) in the old days to know what it means??

Count how many $700K RVs pick up some hair ball hippie/ravers.. coming out of NY state..

If you can't fly out to Reno with your camp on your back.. What kind of a Burner are you, already..

Every year I have offered a seat to the playa.. Eight times and no takers. Not even a nibble.

[Captain Goddammit]

Just make the tickets $420 and skip the extra hassle. What's wrong with that?
We're already carpooling and packing existing vehicles to capacity.

[unjonharley]

Just make the tickets $420 and skip the extra hassle. What's wrong with that?
We're already carpooling and packing existing vehicles to capacity.

Thats good with me./ cept keep the $40 as a nudge to carpool..

you would have to be real hard up to carpool with that ugly captain.

[trilobyte]

@unjon, you're the one being silly. You don't need to have a vehicle pass for every ticketholder, you only need one for every vehicle. And judging from the results of the study done on last year's event, that's a hair under 2 people a vehicle. 35K should be more than enough passes. And if the doom-n-gloomers are right and people hoard vehicle passes like crazy, it will be raining vehicle passes in the weeks before the event (just like it was raining tickets in the weeks before the 2012 event).

@Captain Goddammit - as I've said in a couple places, it's necessary for Burning Man to get their arms around and have some control over the number of vehicles coming to the event. Many push their vehicles to capacity, but not everyone does.

[Valgar]

Vehicle Passes can be purchased when you buy tickets online.

Maybe writing scripts and parsing EDI files the last two days has broken me, but does that mean if I am gifted a ticket, I can't buy a vehicle pass? Or just that I will need to enter the ticket lotto, and then just buy the pass and not the ticket?

[trilobyte]

If a person can gift you a ticket, they can also gift you a vehicle pass or possibly help you sort out a rideshare of some sort. If your gifted ticket is as a result of a volunteer staff thing, you'll want to get with your manager or team lead with regards to vehicle passes.

[trilobyte]

FYI folks, I'm hearing some conflicting information as to whether vehicle passes will be sold 1 to 1 with tickets purchased, or whether you can buy more passes than tickets (up to 4 in the presale, up to 2 in the directed and individual sales).

If you can buy more passes than tickets that would be a really bad idea IMO, as that only encourages people to hoard. Once I can get confirmation, I'll pass it along.

[unjonharley]

@unjon, you're the one being silly. You don't need to have a vehicle pass for every ticketholder, you only need one for every vehicle. And judging from the results of the study done on last year's event, that's a hair under 2 people a vehicle. 35K should be more than enough passes. And if the doom-n-gloomers are right and people hoard vehicle passes like crazy, it will be raining vehicle passes in the weeks before the event (just like it was raining tickets in the weeks before the 2012 event).

@Captain Goddammit - as I've said in a couple places, it's necessary for Burning Man to get their arms around and have some control over the number of vehicles coming to the event. Many push their vehicles to capacity, but not everyone does.

If there were two people per car last year.. Why the hell were 60 000 vehicle.. Just becouse BMorg said stuff people into your car don't mean it is possible..

IMUSThave my personal vehicle with me at BM..

The odds of the little guy getting a pass is huge..

The heavy hitters will be able to get passes if they don't already have then..

Another way to view this is.... It is against the law to charge passage for a medical device..

I could make six seats for other to ride in the van.. That means nothing if no one has a pass.. I'm sure no one is asking for a ride if they have a pass..

When I starts to rain car passes they will be up to $400 per..

If I'm lucky enough to get a car pass and ticket.. Might sell the fuckers and sit this one out..

[unjonharley]

FYI folks, I'm hearing some conflicting information as to whether vehicle passes will be sold 1 to 1 with tickets purchased, or whether you can buy more passes than tickets (up to 4 in the presale, up to 2 in the directed and individual sales).

If you can buy more passes than tickets that would be a really bad idea IMO, as that only encourages people to hoard. Once I can get confirmation, I'll pass it along.

That has to be a miss print in the JRS.....

[trilobyte]

There weren't 60,000 vehicles at the event. Last year or ever.

You're missing the point in the raining tickets in 2012 comparison. In that year, hoarders trying to unload the tickets they no longer needed were selling them at face, and in many cases far below face value. Some idiots may try scalping vehicle passes, it would probably be met with the same response as selling tickets above face - the entire order would be canceled and tickets voided.

As for being against the law to charge passage for a medical device, that's a good question. You may want to take it up with the ticket support folks, though I've relayed it onwards to a couple people at HQ to look into.

[Patamon]

[tatonka]

Just make the tickets $420 and skip the extra hassle. What's wrong with that?
We're already carpooling and packing existing vehicles to capacity.

this

[BBadger]

This is really just a scheme to get you to fill out the census for a validation sticker.

[Patamon]

[theCryptofishist]

Just make the tickets $420 and skip the extra hassle. What's wrong with that?
We're already carpooling and packing existing vehicles to capacity.

this

No. Like Trilo said, that won't do a thing to lower the number of vehicles coming in, which is one of the long term goals here. Merely paying for the road isn't enough.

[mudpuppy000]

And if the doom-n-gloomers are right and people hoard vehicle passes like crazy, it will be raining vehicle passes in the weeks before the event (just like it was raining tickets in the weeks before the 2012 event).

That's the thing, I wouldn't want a big question mark hanging over me till 2 weeks before the event. Plus it's only $40. Once STEP closes is anyone going to bother trying to find a local buyer on craigslist or whatever?

[trilobyte]

For fuck's sakes, patamon, just rent a bigger truck for your camp. Depending on how big your camp is, it might even make sense to rent a separate truck to haul the infrastructure, and one to haul campmates' gear.

[trilobyte]

@mudpuppy000 - if that became an issue (and that's a big if), plenty of people are able to successfully buy/sell tickets on ePlaya.

[Eric]

One thing I'm noticing that everyone freaking out in this thread doesn't seem to be able to get a grip on: the "typical" (read: "average") vehicle is already carrying "1.9 humans" into the event - that means that almost half of the vehicles coming into the event already have 2 or more people in them, while just slightly over half has 1 person. I know the vehicle I come in never has less than 3 of us, and has carried up to 6 in the past. We don't have a single person in our camp who travels alone - all come in 2s & 3s, which means my entire camp won't need more than 3 or 4 passes for a dozen-ish people, and most camps probably have similar ratios (if they're not solo). The 35,000 passes is more than enough based on the number of tickets being sold and how people have traveled in the past, and will encourage those slightly-more-than-half who are currently travelling alone to think about having someone travel with them.

That said, do I think there will be some assholes hoarding because they don't understand basic math, because, face it, Burners are just people. As for the images of overloaded trucks that have been posted - the passes admit roughly the same vehicles that came last year. If you didn't see your over-packed vehicle vision last year, why do you think you'll see it this year? Other than "sky is falling" paranoia and an apparent desire to freak people out, of course.

tl:dr: The number of passes for this year = roughly the same number of vehicles as last year. The passes force people to think about how they're traveling, and to give the Org long-term proof they can control traffic in the future.

Or, with my mod-hat off: Calm the fuck down.
Damn hippies will find anything to go apeshit over...

[unjonharley]

One thing I'm noticing that everyone freaking out in this thread doesn't seem to be able to get a grip on: the "typical" (read: "average") vehicle is already carrying "1.9 humans" into the event - that means that almost half of the vehicles coming into the event already have 2 or more people in them, while just slightly over half has 1 person. I know the vehicle I come in never has less than 3 of us, and has carried up to 6 in the past. We don't have a single person in our camp who travels alone - all come in 2s & 3s, which means my entire camp won't need more than 3 or 4 passes for a dozen-ish people, and most camps probably have similar ratios (if they're not solo). The 35,000 passes is more than enough based on the number of tickets being sold and how people have traveled in the past, and will encourage those slightly-more-than-half who are currently travelling alone to think about having someone travel with them.

If this were anywhere near correct There is no need for the dispensing 35 000 road tax.. Just add iot on the price of a ticket.. If your right the BMorg is pole vaulting over mouse turds.

[illy dilly]

@illydilly - vehicle passes are available on a 1:1 ratio with tickets sold. That means presale buyers may purchase up to 4 tickets and 4 passes, and directed group sale buyers may purchase up to 2 tickets and 2 passes. But regardless of that, it's still not possible to sell 60% of the vehicle passes in the early sales.

I hadn't seen this 1 vehicle pass (VP) per 1 ticket rule posted. Where was it?
For clarification, I was referring to the Directed Group Sale. Its very unlikely, but if 15,000 people could each buy 1 ticket and 2 passes, that would be 30k passes. Unless, the limit is also Capped at 15,000 VP, which it could be and I just haven't seen it stated.

Though hopefully it will be ironed out to a 1 VP per 1 Ticket plan before the actual sales start. Even so that means that the directed group sale could end up with 15k of the 35k passes. Leaving the individual sale and OMG sale 39k tickets to share the remaining 20k VP.

I stand by my theory that in the beginning, groups or individuals will hoard the Vehicle Passes, but by late July or early August it will sort it self out. And, the way it might simply be the BMorg prints more Vehicle Passes.

Half way through the JRS, under the Burning Man Traffic Mitigation Plan, Vehicle Passes it states

...There are 35,000 passes available this year. This may change in future years depending on how successful we are at reducing traffic in 2014.

Which makes me believe they're going off the 1.9:1 ratio and seeing how the cookie crumbles.

[Dr. Pyro]

Last year the vehicle I was in had eight people total in it. It seems to me that if you have five or more people in a single vehicle not only should you be able to bypass the $40 fee but also have a dedicated mega-car-pool lane. I mean if Larry really wanted to sell the product, uh, I mean concept of responsible carpooling. But of course he doesn't, he just wants more money and can blame it on the NDOT.

[Patamon]

Eric I don't think the problem is the nunber of passes (35K) It's the uncertainty in trying to figure out how many passes you'll need, 7 months before the event. I know for our camp, which is a 70 person camp with tons of experienced burners who almost all have a decade of burns, its still impossible, in Feburary, to know what the carpooling/truck/driving situation is going to be in late August.

That leaves two choices...

(A) get as many vehicles passes as you can, in February, and then sort it all out once you get to next summer.

Or...

(B) attempt some Rube Goldberg mathematics in order to estimate how many passes you'll need, get those passes, hope for the best, and be stressed out for the next 7 months as to whether your camp has enough for everyone.


If 90% of the experienced theme camps go with option (A), that leaves maybe 5,000 vehicle passes for the other 40,000 burners once the regular sales begin.

[mudpuppy000]

Ok, so I'm sure lots of people carpool and all that, but do you know who you're driving in with in January/February when tickets go on sale? No? Ok better buy a car pass when I buy a ticket. Voila, all the car passes are gone with the first 35k tickets. The rest of the people get stuck wondering if they should even buy a ticket if it's critical for them to have a vehicle.

[Misti]

I would pay quite a bit more than $40 to pitch in to have Jungo made drivable instead.... this would cut traffic through the bottleneck by offering another route and would shorten our drive by a lot.
Two roads in and maybe a zig zag back and forth like cattle pens to get to the gate would probably get the numbers on the road down enough for people to be happy.

As it is now, i forsee people in the early sales hoarding passes and more people under or unprepared to be able to fit in a carpool vehicle.
My family faces possibly not going since with the RV being transportation and camp we would have the option of waiting until a few weeks before for rain or rushing to figure out plans.. I am too much of a planner to be able to do that.

[TT120]

Eric I don't think the problem is the nunber of passes (35K) It's the uncertainty in trying to figure out how many passes you'll need, 7 months before the event. I know for our camp, which is a 70 person camp with tons of experienced burners who almost all have a decade of burns, its still impossible, in Feburary, to know what the carpooling/truck/driving situation is going to be in late August.

That leaves two choices...

(A) get as many vehicles passes as you can, in February, and then sort it all out once you get to next summer.

Or...

(B) attempt some Rube Goldberg mathematics in order to estimate how many passes you'll need, get those passes, hope for the best, and be stressed out for the next 7 months as to whether your camp has enough for everyone.


If 90% of the experienced theme camps go with option (A), that leaves maybe 5,000 vehicle passes for the other 40,000 burners once the regular sales begin.

This is correct. Everyone is going to grab as many passes as they can and then sort it out later. Even if STEP is going to handle passes as well as tickets, once everyone figures out how they're getting there and don't need the pass, how many of those people are going to go through the trouble of selling them back or to someone else if it's only a $40 loss. Some will I'm sure. Most wont.

Ok, so I'm sure lots of people carpool and all that, but do you know who you're driving in with in January/February when tickets go on sale? No? Ok better buy a car pass when I buy a ticket. Voila, all the car passes are gone with the first 35k tickets. The rest of the people get stuck wondering if they should even buy a ticket if it's critical for them to have a vehicle.

Also correct. I sure don't want to deal with the angst of spending $380 on a ticket without knowing if I can even get there until 2 weeks before.

I didn't see very much carpooling in my neck of the woods last year. Most people came in their own cars. 1.9 people per car sounds too high from what I saw last year. I'm probably wrong tho....

[Captain Goddammit]

Well fine, they have to get control over the number of vehicles.
To make it even remotely fair there should be only a certain proportional number of VPs available to the directed ticket sales people so they can't grab half to most of the passes, like is about to happen.
I mean really, what happens when VPs are all taken before you get your ticket?
Exactly what the fuck happens?
Let's say you try your best but lose out in the Great Ticket Grab. You are able to get a Craigslist or step ticket. But not a VP.

What the fuck happens?

Defend this bullshit fucked up program all you want, we all know it's a bunch of shit.

[unjonharley]

what the goddamitt said..

[kiss-o-matic]

@Captain Goddammit - as I've said in a couple places, it's necessary for Burning Man to get their arms around and have some control over the number of vehicles coming to the event. Many push their vehicles to capacity, but not everyone does.

Well said. Entry and Exodus are still pretty clear in my mind (entry, especially). I went to great lengths to get there early and actually have some sleep the first night, as I was in that volatile demographic, also known as "a couple". That went over like a lead balloon, and the results that ensued are about what you'd expect, unfortunately. If they can get less vehicles in that line, it's a win. The ticket prices didn't go up either. I don't see what all the tears are about.