Low Income Ticket Sale Timeline

[jcliff]

By posting this question I am fully prepared to get shouted down ,given the expected presumption of insensitivity on my part. I feel gummy about my question, so no worries about your response. Before I ask my question, I feel the need to stipulate that I am 200% on board with low income tickets. I would happily pay $10 or $20 more if it meant more low-income people would have access to our experience.

Here's my question: Why are low-income sales extended so late into the Spring. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I saw low-income sales being advertised through May of last year....way after the Main Sale had sold out. Why is it that low-income ticket buyers can walk up to the front of the line in May when financially stable Burners are scrambling to get a ticket?

I have NO problem with low-income tickets! But shouldn't those ticket buyers be required to plan ahead and get their place in line like every other Burner? If low-income tickets don't sell out in the Main Sale, then I think their ticket allotment should go to Burners who know they are going to participate in our event.

If your response to my question is that low-income ticket buyers don't have the financial wherewithal to plan ahead to get in the main ticket sale, I would say why not?

I know my question is so bad...but I read this forum pretty consistently, and no one else has asked it. Please know that I love every student, yoga teacher, got laid off, taking care of a dying parent, barista, getting-your-shit-together person, retiree, disabled person, just-out-of-school and can't find a job, artist, struggling with addiction, gainfully employed but can't make ends meet, can't hold a job because their student loans have defaulted and they will take all your income people. If I left out a low-income ticket buyer person with the above categories...please chime in, and know that I love you too.

My question is, why do you get more time? You don't have to pay for the ticket until you go through the gate!

I really am a good Burner. I just want someone to school me on this issue. Please be kind.

[Mojojita]

Not a bad question. I believe that the process for low income tickets requires the hopeful purchaser to make an application to BM - then the BM staff reviews the applications and either approves or disapproves the application. Certainly this is a much more time consuming process than a regular sale. It has to be a tough job to make those decisions. I'm impressed by those that are able to ask for help when they need it, requiring some brave self-deprecation. It might not be the reason for it, but I think the extra time is a kindness for people that have a much harder time determining if their circumstances will allow them to afford to even attend the event.

My guess is that it simply takes longer to attract and process the pre-determined number of low-income applicants in a manner that is as fair as possible. I appreciate that the org decides in advance the number of low-income tickets that will be allocated.

For a long time I bought at least a couple of tickets to gift but I have not done so since the event started to sell out. (Additionally, the increase in ticket prices over the years has caused that gift to be much harder to make).

I'm glad you posted this 'cause it has given me the good idea to create a small anonymous "in-house" fund to assist some of the young burners in my camp.

[tamarakay]

And having low income after regular sale does shake out those who can manage to come up with the extra bucks. But I do attribute the longer time frame to the manual review of the applicants. Not a job I would want and my hat is off to those who are tasked with this.

[Eric]

Here's my question: Why are low-income sales extended so late into the Spring. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I saw low-income sales being advertised through May of last year....way after the Main Sale had sold out. Why is it that low-income ticket buyers can walk up to the front of the line in May when financially stable Burners are scrambling to get a ticket?

You're looking at it wrong - they don't get to walk to "the front of the line", they are stuck hoping they get a ticket after most of the ones available have already been sold. Low Income is designed for people who would really have a hard time scrambling to get the money for the ticket*, by having the distribution take place after the Main Sale, and by automatically disqualifying you if you enter any of the other sales, it helps to weed out people who are just looking to save a buck with a cheaper ticket. There are also way more applicants than there are tickets in that catagory, so by choosing this route you're setting yourself up with the extremely real chance that you end up with no ticket. If they did the Low Income sale before the Main Sale, people could go for it, then try for a ticket at full price if they didn't get one - ie: game the system.








*I'm not going into the arguments of "that's the cheapest part, how can they afford to go", which have always come off to me as slightly bone-headed & are up there with the RV whinging in my book

[trilobyte]

@jcliff - it's always funny when people say they have NO problem with something, then go into detail about the problems they have with it. FYI, last year the application process was wrapped up in April. You're also misguided in thinking that low income applicants are somehow walking up to the front of the line... when in fact it is a completely different queue with completely different allocations. If anything, they're waiting in the back for their special queue. They have to wait until the main sales are over, and financially stable burners have not only gotten their chance to purchase tickets in those sales, but also got a running start at scrambling for tickets via STEP or the after-market. To me, your post reads like despite your disclaimers, you somehow feel like low income applicants are cheating or taking advantage of participants who pay full price for a ticket, and that's just not true. The bucket of tickets sold through that process is separate from the other ticket sales allocations. If anything, they've got to wait longer and jump through many more hoops for a chance at a much smaller allocation of tickets. Careful consideration and review of applications takes time, and is done by many of the same people who are involved in the main sales. From a logistics perspective, it makes sense for them to run the main sales, and then start going through the low income application process.

[9ah]

I know Cliff and truly feel she was simply trying to understand the process.

Miss ya Cliff!!

[theCryptofishist]

Cliff is a woman?


I feel like Ratty...

[jcliff]

Nope, I need to redirect this conversation. Last year BMorg posted that low-income tickets were still available long after the Main Sale was closed. They posted in some way that low-income tickets were still available. I already looked through Facebook posts, but maybe it was in a Jack Rabbit Speaks....I'm not imagining this because that is what set me off on the equity of the situation. Can anybody back me up on seeing this posted? I don't care how long low-income tickets take to be vetted. My issue was calling for new applicants after the Main Sale was done. I swear I'm not a mean or uncharitable person. I'm just advocating for the low-income sale time-frame to get on a lock like the other sales.

[Eric]

Nope, I need to redirect this conversation. Last year BMorg posted that low-income tickets were still available long after the Main Sale was closed. They posted in some way that low-income tickets were still available. I already looked through Facebook posts, but maybe it was in a Jack Rabbit Speaks....I'm not imagining this because that is what set me off on the equity of the situation. Can anybody back me up on seeing this posted? I don't care how long low-income tickets take to be vetted. My issue was calling for new applicants after the Main Sale was done. I swear I'm not a mean or uncharitable person. I'm just advocating for the low-income sale time-frame to get on a lock like the other sales.

None of the other sales have "time-frames", they are all first-come, first-served, and the sale ends when they are sold out, exactly the same as Low Income - the fact that "regular" tickets have been selling out in hours doesn't change the fact that it's an open-ended sale. The difference is that there is a limited registration period for other tickets, due to those registrations needing to be processed before the tickets go on sale. That need doesn't exist for Low Income since each & every application for a ticket is looked at & judged by actual human beings - there is no registration needed to prove you're not a scalper or have had past issues that remove you from purchasing. You do not "order" a Low Income ticket, you apply & hope you qualify, and there may be tickets left after the initial batch of applicants has been gone through due to the fact that not all applicants were awarded tickets.

You are still comparing this to general sales tickets, and it's a completely different animal - different pool of tickets, harder to get, no way to just "order", people deciding if you qualify - not your speed making a phone call. You are also ignoring the fact that entering the Low Income process makes you ineligible to purchase any tickets at regular price through BMan:

No. Purchasing a ticket through any of our other sales disqualifies you from participating in our Low Income Ticket Program.

After all of our sales have concluded we do a final cross check of Low Income Ticket awards with other ticket sales and any found to have already purchased tickets will have their Low Income Ticket award revoked. Please note: this applies even if you have bought a ticket for someone else or let them use your credit card!

[jcliff]

I swear, I am not beating this point to death....But hear me out. It seems like from what I've read that the BMorg sets a certain ticket allotment for low-income tickets. If that ticket allotment is not met in the initial wave of low-income applicants, there is a push from BMorg for additional applicants....well after the Main Sale. That is what I meant when I said "walking up to the front of the line."

[maryanimal]

last year there 4,000 were allotted for Low Income tickets and probably twice that in applicants. I find it hard to think they had leftover tickets from the LI ticket sales. I could be wrong, it's been know to happen...once or twice!

[Eric]

I swear, I am not beating this point to death....But hear me out. It seems like from what I've read that the BMorg sets a certain ticket allotment for low-income tickets. If that ticket allotment is not met in the initial wave of low-income applicants, there is a push from BMorg for additional applicants....well after the Main Sale. That is what I meant when I said "walking up to the front of the line."

I still don't get how you think they are "walking to the front of the line"- when ALL of the first-run general-sale tickets except for the 1,000 set aside for the "OMG" are already sold out by the time these are awarded!!

How much farther back past the tail end of nowhere does it need to be for you to not feel like they're somehow getting ahead of you? The fact they actually let people know some went unawarded (if that happened, I don't remember it), and that people who may not have thought they had a chance to get a Low Income tickets now knew that there were still some of those specific set-aside tickets left, shows they really do want to make it accessible for more than just the wealthy like people whinge about it becoming in other threads. I'm not sure how that's a bad thing.

I'm agreeing with Trilo's opinion more & more - no matter how much it's explained that these tickets are completely separate from the main sales, how they aren't awarded until after the main sales are well over, how the applicant's have to file paperwork to even have a chance to be awarded them (extensive paperwork, including proof of low income), how they aren't guaranteed tickets, and how they are blocked from getting tickets any other way except the non-BM resale market, how 90+% of all the available tickets HAVE ALREADY SOLD by the time these are awarded, you still feel they are "walking up to the front of the line."

Honestly, if you still feel that way no matter what rational arguments are presented to show you otherwise, there is nothing we can say to change your mind. So, yes, the poor people who don't know if they get a ticket until all the full-price ones are almost gone, who have to beg for a ticket while submitting paperwork from their banks & their jobs to prove they are really, really poor, not pretend poor, are walking to the front of the line, ahead of the 55,000+ people who already have tickets.

[jcliff]

The last thing I want is to be perceived as not supporting low-income ticket sales. I think there's a disconnect in my thread that is unlikely to get better with more posts. My apologies for any misunderstandings.

[Eric]

I'm wondering if your question is about the after-market, and the way the tickets get distributed in that?

The thing to remember is that General Tickets & Low Income are two different things - they're the cliche "apples and oranges" (what we've been calling "separate pools"). General tickets can be given away, sold on Craigslist, get put into STEP, burned, eaten, lost... anything you want. Low Income tickets can only go to the applicant who applied for them, they cannot be resold or transferred, and they must be purchased at Will Call at the Gate (which also controls any attempts to sell them or give them away).

Low Income tickets in no way affect general tickets sales, in either the initial or the after markets - they are not part of the quota for regular tickets, and they are not set up to be put into those pools if they don't all sell. People waiting in STEP, or who purchased tickets in the initial or distributed sales, have zero access to them - the mere act of attempting to purchase at full price shows a lack of need for Low Income, and since the BMorg would have record of that attempted purchase through your Burner Profile they would invalidate your Low Income application.

I'm really trying to understand your question & have an answer, but, sadly, no matter how clearly either of us thinks we're being, we still have to interpret it through our brains and no two brains do that alike. Hopefully this is getting closer.

[trilobyte]

Yes, you are beating the point to death. And I get it, you don't want anyone to think you have a problem with low income... but you clearly have problems with low income. Your posts make that very clear.

Burning Man has been getting more than enough applicants for low income (and before the unified program, low income + scholarship) programs since long before you started participating in the event. Despite any wild ideas or entitlements some people may have (thinking those tickets should be put into the general pool), that is simply not going to happen. There is no push from Burning Man, because there is no shortage of applicants... every year.

They're not walking to the front of the line, because they've been waiting in a completely separate line for a longer period of time. It's a completely different bucket that Burning Man allocates specifically for that program, and I'm sorry if you're not able to understand that.

[BBadger]

Let me be clear that I do not support the LIT program (I'm not joking here). I don't think vacations like BM should be subsidized, and the amount saved versus the regular ticket price is not substantial enough to be a deal-breaking for a vacation like Burning Man. But enough of that...

I'm pleased to hear that the profile system is now set up to prevent people from double-dipping when it comes to being able to buy tickets through the main sale and the LIT program. People were doing that a bit in the 2012 lottery fiasco, and the profiles undermine that to some degree. Still, if it was as cut-throat as it was in 2012, I'm sure people could still set up two accounts just in case, or just have a friend be the second account. It's hard to prevent that entirely.

And let me be clear that I do not... oh sorry, I said that already.

[jcliff]

Not sure why things got so tense. My question centered on the timeline of the process, not the worthiness of the low-income ticket program. Last year the applications for low-income closed on April 15th. I simply didn't understand why that program had such a larger time window. But I understand that those 4,000 tickets are completely separate from any other sale. I do get it, and I appreciate you answering my question.

[Tiahaar]

Sacred Cows, even Burning Man has them

if it helps, think of the LIT program as a juried art show where a panel of judges (BMORG) uses subjective requirements to alot a certain number of entrants a wild-card low priced entry. They may or may not know the applicants, favors may or may not be granted, and if you get one yay for you, they like your application.