BLM citations

Aze · Post by **Aze** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:09 pm

I did a lot of research on just what would go on my record for this citation, and let me share what I learned. Basically if I pay the citation within the 30 days, I won't get anything on my record, but I will have been convicted of a misdemeanor.

The $525 citation gets paid to the "Central Violations Bureau" in Atlanta, which is the organization that collects the money from all the BLM citations nationwide. I called them up and they said for these Burning Man citations they will not report to any driving records, and it will not be reported to the federal NCIC criminal database. They said it won't go on any central databases, so nobody will be able to discover it. However, they do keep paper and then microfiche records forever and if a federal agency wants details then they could get it, if they knew about the incident. The court also confirmed that they won't report anything to any central records.

The citation says on the back that "In some federal jurisdictions, payment of the total collateral due constitutes a plea of guilty or nolo contendere". I verified with the Reno court that this is one of those jurisdictions, and so paying the fine would result in a "no contest" (effectively the same as guilty) plea to a misdemeanor, meaning if someone asked if you had any convictions the truthful answer would be yes.

So this a strange situation where paying the citation means you have a conviction, but nobody would ever be able to find out about it if you didn't tell them. The courts and databases won't have any record, there will just this paper/microfiche record at the CVB.

Of course as things get more connected in the future, I don't there's anything legally stopping the CVB from dumping those records into a central database, except the expense of doing so.

I decided to pay the $525 citation to the CVB within the 30 days.

It's probably not a good idea to try and seal this record (a legal procedure which normally hides criminal records). According to the court, doing so would involve transferring the record from the CVB to the court, and possibly creating a criminal case in the central NCIC records. So sealing could actually make it more visible not less. If you apply for a federal job (like public school teacher) all sealed records are automatically unsealed, so they might find it if you sealed (but not if you didn't).

I think I have a chance at winning if I were to take it to trial or court, but a trial would cost at least $5000 in lawyer fees, could result in the US Attorney deciding to place this on my central NCIC record, and could even end up having me convicted of a felony rather than misdemeanor (not likely in my marijuana case, but quite likely for someone else who might have harder drugs). This is what stinks about the system: they make it easier just to pay the citation and get the conviction than fighting it and possibly risking more.

On the other hand I should probably be happy... apparently if this happened outside the BLM lands the Nevada penalties would have been worse and it would have gone on my record.

Clearly, even if you are in the right it's much better just not to get caught.

dj_john69 · Post by **dj_john69** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:19 pm

Wow, very interesting to read Aze.

Yes, it's true...your better off getting the ticket on the Playa vs anywhere else in Nevada. Until about 6 years ago...getting caught with a seed or a pipe was a felony. Im very glad they loosened up a lil bit.

~John

Mrs Beltane · Post by **Mrs Beltane** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:46 am

heres my experience
Had a few cocktails at sundown every night
drank a lot of beer
did some lovely MDMA in my car
smoked a few pipes with my neighbours outside his car
found some coke on the ground at the Lotus Girls and did that in my car.

I didnt get busted but I could have been. I took my chances. I was lucky. I had a great time.......

Had I been busted I would have 'whined' but I may have asked why BMorg needs to have the best party in the world on a piece of overpriced, overenforced (how many LE agency's?...6? 7??) land.

I love the Playa but is there nowhere in the USA on private land that Burning Man could be held??

ps Ujon, in my country you would be called a cunt. Your unquestioning support of the laws of your country and the law enforcers are the thin end of the wedge that starts in BRC and ends at Guantanamo....

Have a nice day.

Post by **mdmf007** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:09 pm

You may feel LEO's are not nec4essary but I disagree.

I work ESD - and see plenty of helpless Drunks geting taken advantage of at BM.

One case involved a drunk gal robbed of her 980 Bucks - I called LE in and they arrested the perpetrator, and retrieved the 980 bones.

job well done-

later and be safe

ubu · Post by **ubu** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:36 pm

Aze wrote: The citation says on the back that "In some federal jurisdictions, payment of the total collateral due constitutes a plea of guilty or nolo contendere". I verified with the Reno court that this is one of those jurisdictions, and so paying the fine would result in a "no contest" (effectively the same as guilty) plea to a misdemeanor, meaning if someone asked if you had any convictions the truthful answer would be yes.

Aze. Nice research. However, you might be pleased to know that "nolo contendere" is up to interpretation. You can technically declare that you were not convicted.

In Lott Vs. United States, 367 US 421 where the Court, after stating that the plea (of nolo contendere) is tantamount to an admission of a guilt for the purposes of the case, added that the plea itself, does not constitute a conviction and hence, is not a determination of guilt.

Technically, you are going belly up on this case, but you have not been convicted. That is why nothing shows up on your record. If you were convicted, you would have a record of some sort.

This is my current understanding. If you have other legal reasoning as to why you have been convicted, I'd like to see it.

My basic understanding is that all minor BLM citations, for speeding, for burning wood outside of designating camping areas, for breaking the rules, are treated as fines which you can pay without conviction. nolo contendere is a convenience for the court system in minor cases in which no conviction is necessary. in most cases.

Aze wrote:
I think I have a chance at winning if I were to take it to trial or court, but a trial would cost at least $5000 in lawyer fees, could result in the US Attorney deciding to place this on my central NCIC record, and could even end up having me convicted of a felony rather than misdemeanor (not likely in my marijuana case, but quite likely for someone else who might have harder drugs). This is what stinks about the system: they make it easier just to pay the citation and get the conviction than fighting it and possibly risking more.

They call that "the money point" and there is an essay on findlaw on exactly that convenience for the system. They raised the maximimum convictionless fine from 250 to 525.

but it is no conviction, only like an admission of guilt. close but not quite a conviction. ymmv.

You were caught. they took your stash. they cost you a few hours. they fined you. you can still declare that you have no convictions unless you have been convicted of something else in a court of law.

Aze · Post by **Aze** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:37 pm

ubu, many thanks for that info. Three different lawyers had told me that paying the fine would result in a conviction, but after your reply and some more web research on my part I think they were wrong. They probably didn't know that there was no court date listed on the citation. It is interesting that most of the bad advice I got was from lawyers.

I now agree that technically the automatic "nolo contendere" plea from paying the BLM citation is not a conviction. It seems that in normal court proceedings, when someone pleads nolo contendere, they are automatically convicted by the court. So most people consider the plea essentially the same as a conviction. But in the unique case of these citations, the court isn't involved after paying it, so now I think it is proper to say no conviction has occurred.

However, that doesn't necessarily absolve me from reporting it on job applications... some applications specifically ask about nolo contendere pleas. But most probably don't.

ubu · Post by **ubu** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:49 pm

right. well, that is interesting. it is kind of a fine distinction, subject to clarification by legal opinion. it looks like the judge in a court case has discretion as to what kind of penalty to apply in a nolo contendere, even though it is not an admission of guilt, and not a conviction. it can be treated as one by a judge in a particular case. but only in regards to that case. or at least that is how I read it. interesting.

I told someone else who asked me that if an employer asks for that kind of information that might be a tipoff that you probably want to seek work elsewhere. you could treat it as an employer filter. kind of like drug testing. that is if you have the luxury of choosing your line of work.

be well. and thanks for the info

Aze · Post by **Aze** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:31 pm

After getting this citation I've done a lot of reading up on what rights a person has when coming into contact with cops that want to search.

One of the best resources is:

http://flexyourrights.com/

and their video on youtube:

Definitely required watching if you are going use substances that our repressive government don't like. If I had really known this stuff beforehand I might not have gotten the citation.

Since the first thing the LEOs will say is "you better give it up or I'll bring in the Canines", it's good to understand a bit about case law relating to canine searches:

http://www.k9fleck.org/narlegal.htm

Overall, we have a lot more rights than most people know, and it's up to us to know those rights and exercise them.

skygod · Post by **skygod** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:02 am

Unjon's posts remind me of a story-
A zen student went to his Master every day and asked him what the meaning of life was. Each time he asked this question his Master beat him severly until he ran out of the room. The student decided he needed a different Master, and went down the street to ask a different Master to take him on as a student. After listening to the student describe his experiences, the new Master said "Certainly, you can be my student. But first you have to go back to your old master and thank him for his Grandmotherly Kindness".

sacred573 · Post by **sacred573** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:22 am

This summer will be my first burn, and I'm of course planning on bringing treats for myself. I'm glad I saw this thread first though. Looks like I'll be toking up alone, and hiding in my van to do it.

Shit... I hope I land close to Ubu's camp!

dj_john69 · Post by **dj_john69** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:08 pm

Aze wrote:After getting this citation I've done a lot of reading up on what rights a person has when coming into contact with cops that want to search.

One of the best resources is:

http://flexyourrights.com/

and their video on youtube:

Definitely required watching if you are going use substances that our repressive government don't like. If I had really known this stuff beforehand I might not have gotten the citation.

Since the first thing the LEOs will say is "you better give it up or I'll bring in the Canines", it's good to understand a bit about case law relating to canine searches:

http://www.k9fleck.org/narlegal.htm

Overall, we have a lot more rights than most people know, and it's up to us to know those rights and exercise them.

So, the Youtube video has been removed. Any chance of finding it again and posting it up here ?? Thanks.

GREENPENIS · Post by **GREENPENIS** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:40 pm

Here it is , good stuff to know.
http://www.flexyourrights.org/busted/movie_clips

Now if I could only figure out how to get
the DPW to stop searching my Mutant Vehicle
for extra alcohol......

Mushroom · Post by **Mushroom** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:35 am

Wow I'm so glad I stumbled across this thread but a couple of questions...

How often are people caught with pot or other such things?

and Does anyone have a link to the Canadian version of these rights? I'm pretty sure they are quite similar but it would be quite interesting to know seeing as I get searched repeatedly

ohh I just remembered a good one... So I used to work in a mall and there had been a few robberies in that mall, one night on my way home I was stumbling on my bike (it had been a long day and I was tired so I wasn't paying attention to where I was going) the cops stopped me and started asking me questions like why are you in the mall parking lot this late blah blah blah and I kept telling them that I work there finnaly 10 min later they said ok well just be careful.

dj_john69 · Post by **dj_john69** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:13 pm

Mushroom wrote:Wow I'm so glad I stumbled across this thread but a couple of questions...

How often are people caught with pot or other such things?

ALOT !!! Im sure that someone is getting busted atleast once every 30 minutes on the Playa. Be safe and smart about doing illegal substances and you wont get caught.

Post by **AntiM** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:02 pm

Mushroom wrote:Wow I'm so glad I stumbled across this thread but a couple of questions...

How often are people caught with pot or other such things?

All it takes is once to fuck up your burn. And since you're not a US citizen, well I don't know how badly it would fuck up future travel.

ibdave · Post by **ibdave** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:04 pm

dj_john69 wrote:
Mushroom wrote: How often are people caught with pot or other such things?
ALOT !!! Im sure that someone is getting busted atleast once every 30 minutes on the Playa. Be safe and smart about doing illegal substances and you wont get caught.

Not wanting to work my small pea size brain on this fine Friday. (I don't want to do the math on the 30 min per bust)I would have to say that dj_john is not right about the every 30 minutes part. Yes drug bust do happen to both smart and dumb people on the Playa. But not at an alarming rate. The only way to not get busted is to not do anything that would get you busted.. It's that simple.....

dj_john69 · Post by **dj_john69** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:25 pm

ibdave wrote:
dj_john69 wrote:
Mushroom wrote: How often are people caught with pot or other such things?
ALOT !!! Im sure that someone is getting busted atleast once every 30 minutes on the Playa. Be safe and smart about doing illegal substances and you wont get caught.
Not wanting to work my small pea size brain on this fine Friday. (I don't want to do the math on the 30 min per bust)I would have to say that dj_john is not right about the every 30 minutes part. Yes drug bust do happen to both smart and dumb people on the Playa. But not at an alarming rate. The only way to not get busted is to not do anything that would get you busted.. It's that simple.....

Im not quite sure of where i can find accurate stats on drug related arrest or citations during BM but one bust every 30 minutes isnt out of line by any means.

Over 24 hours time, there are 48 thirty minute increments... times 7 days of the event = 336 citations or arrest for drugs or paraphernalia. This is over 7 days/nights with attendance of 35,000 people. 336 is not alot !! You actually think the DEA or whoever the fuck else would waste their valuable time for anything less than that ?? I dont. They are there to bust people and to COLLECT FINES for the county.

Gordman · Post by **Gordman** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:01 am

Well it looks like you are right, i absolutely agree. I am not a angry person but i get nervous too when i see these things happening.

www.drugrehab.net/

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:12 am

They are there to bust people and to COLLECT FINES for the county.

Actually, by far the largest beneficiary is the US gov't as most busts/citations are done by the BLM.

MozyBonz · Post by **MozyBonz** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:21 am

ibdave wrote:
dj_john69 wrote:
Mushroom wrote: How often are people caught with pot or other such things?
ALOT !!! Im sure that someone is getting busted atleast once every 30 minutes on the Playa. Be safe and smart about doing illegal substances and you wont get caught.
Not wanting to work my small pea size brain on this fine Friday. (I don't want to do the math on the 30 min per bust)I would have to say that dj_john is not right about the every 30 minutes part. Yes drug bust do happen to both smart and dumb people on the Playa. But not at an alarming rate. The only way to not get busted is to not do anything that would get you busted.. It's that simple.....

The only way to not get busted is to not do anything that would get you busted.. It is that simple.....

Wanderglobe · Post by **Wanderglobe** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:00 pm

bgirl wrote:Survival Guide,LAW ENFORCEMENT SECTION Public and Private; Your right to privacy.

Burning Man is a state of mind, and Black Rock City is an extremely interactive environment, ordered by gift giving. Many distinctions between what is private and what is public tend to soften and disappear. However, Black Rock City is also subject to county, state, and federal laws. If you violate these laws you may be subject to arrest or citation. If a law enforcement representative requests to enter your home - your tent or your RV - you do not have to admit them unless they have a warrant signed by a judge. However, with probable cause and in some emergency situations (as when a person is screaming for help inside, when the police are chasing someone, or when an officer witnesses illegal activity occurring within your home) they are allowed to enter and search your domicile without a warrant. Both sight and scent of illegal activity may be held by a court to represent probable cause.

<SNIP>

now....................................................................... alot of people seem to forget that America has been in a ,''War on Drugs," for a few years now,understatement of the moment.The police are going to try to bust your ass,it's their job and all,within legal boundaries or not.Has it occurred to anyone that some people(possibly police officers) might see BurningMan as one of the most subversive counter-culture events on U.S. soil? I am not saying,"Don't assert your self!" I am saying pick your location and timing carefully.

Thanks for the info Bgirl. Being from Canada as well, Vancouver, I was wondering about searches of my VW and this answered it. It's usually cool with me if people smoke in my bus but not this year. I can't chance a search based on "probable cause" due to smelling a joint and then have my bus impounded. That would suck.

Also, being from Canada and having a record can cause some serious problems the next time I try to roll through the U.S. which would also be a concern. I'll just play it safe.

MikeVDS · Post by **MikeVDS** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:10 pm

Keep in mind, while there are officials just out there to bust you, there are many of them consider it a privilege to get to work Burningman. Most don't want to cause trouble, or even search out drugs. Sure they'll write you up if you're stupid enough to be seen, but they are not the enemy, they are there to have as much fun as they can and to keep things safe and sane.

flipper · Post by **flipper** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:00 pm

[quote="dj_john69"] Im not quite sure of where i can find accurate stats on drug related arrest or citations during BM but one bust every 30 minutes isnt out of line by any means.

Over 24 hours time, there are 48 thirty minute increments... times 7 days of the event = 336 citations or arrest for drugs or paraphernalia. This is over 7 days/nights with attendance of 35,000 people. 336 is not alot !! You actually think the DEA or whoever the fuck else would waste their valuable time for anything less than that ?? I dont. They are there to bust people and to COLLECT FINES for the county.[/quote]

Here's the stats. It's not nearly that number. Here are the official counts reported by agencies to the Associated Press.

[url]http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stori ... 10395.html[/url]

"Senior law enforcement staff who have worked the Burning Man event for years agree that this was the most peaceful event yet, despite the record attendance.

BLM rangers issued a total of 155 citations, a decrease of 27, and made one arrest for a drug offense. Eighty-one of the citations were for drug-related offenses, down by 37 from 2005, 72 for trying to sneak into the event without paying and the rest for miscellaneous violations ranging from creating a nuisance to reckless driving.

The Pershing County Sheriff's office made seven arrests and issued one citation.

The total of citations and arrests this year was 164, down 24 or nearly 13 percent from last year."

In 2006, 81 BLM drug citations over eight days is about 10 a day, one every 144 minutes

In 2005, it was 118, or about 15 a day, or one every 96 minutes.

Even the Pershing Sheriff arrests or excluding Exodus Monday don't get under one an hour.

The flip side of it is that presuming no one got hit twice, only one out of every 483 BM attendees in 2006 a drug-citation from BLM. If all eight sheriff's actions were drug-related (and I doubt that) it that's one out of 439.

How many of the other 438 are clean? How many are discreet? and how many are just lucky or worked their way out of it? I don't know. Just don't end up as #439.

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BLM citations

Consequences

Re: Consequences

Re: Let's be friends :)

Re: Read the law enforcement section in the survival guide