Which of the 10 principles needs tweeking?

[Skuzzy61]

Let's talk consent.
And 'we'.

Most of the 'regulars' on this board know each other in (dusty) meat space. So that is 'we'.

I've been to twenty consecutive burns, several Juplayas, and regionals.
Every single year, at the main event, I've had to deal with men (yes, it is always men) who don't think they need my consent to touch/hug/grab me.
It is a problem, buddy.

I am not a young hottie, either.

You seem very aggressive, by the way.

Thank you. I was struggling trying to respond to that.

I would not call him aggressive. Very defensive for someone who has told others to grow a thick skin. Seems to be very "in the moment".

As far the what I would change. Cameras have to go. Phones should not be allowed on the Playa. You have to talk to someone, then setup a central communication station people can use to make or receive calls. If you have to use your phone, them make provisions where people can come to use them when they need to, but never let them leave the station.
I see people walking around with their heads buried in their phone, texting. They stop and take selfies right in front of art cars. One of them walked right into me and knocked me in front of a couple of e-bikes. I barely got out of the way.

Remember, there was a time no one had a cell phone. Just because they are so pervasive today, does not mean life will end without one.

e-scooters and e-bikes need to go. Too many people not paying attention and going way too fast.

[Ungtartog]

I’m aggressive with my opinions, correct. I’m aggressive with handsy douchebags as well. I don’t condone sexual assault of any shade.

However, I can think of a lot of kinds of transgressive play that I like, that do not involve consent.

Pranks, for example.

Hail Eris.

[Popeye]

Who is this “we” you speak for?

No thanks. I don’t owe you anything. Not even my identity. I called someone out for making shitty condescending assumptions. My opinions don’t need qualifications. I’m not attempting to appeal to , nor act as an authority. If you have something intelligent or interesting to say, say it. Ideas don’t need egos behind them if they have any merit.

You're right, you don't owe me anything. You obviously want some support for your ideas, why else shout about them on Eplaya? People (including Eplayans) give more credence to someone they know than to a rant in the wind.
This is a your chance, take it or not up to you.

[Ungtartog]

I was told that eplaya was a better place to have conversations on controversial topics than Facebook. I’ve been here before… ages ago… but the interaction isn’t really any better here, nor or are the arguments, format or viewpoints. I was told ideas get “more traction” here but I frankly do not see a level of user activity to support that notion.

The authors here have all but confirmed that this is a cloistered clique (which does not represent the broader community) by probing to determine whether my “credentials” are valid.

Weak.

***



“..They stop and take selfies right in front of art cars. One of them walked right into me and knocked me in front of a couple of e-bikes. I barely got out of the way.

Remember, there was a time no one had a cell phone. Just because they are so pervasive today, does not mean life will end without one.

e-scooters and e-bikes need to go…”

***


None of these things were existential problems at Renegade Burn (yes we can scale, and yes we can do anything the Borg can do, and better. Yes including large art, sanitation, medical, legal, civic planning and interfacing with BLM. New arguments, please. This is not the 90s redux).

E-vehicles and cars were driven around with impunity but bicycles were still preferred by most and it never became a “car party” unless you count the art car swarms which exist at BM anyway.

Why do people want BM to be safe? Gross. What happened to the culture here? When did people go all limp? I missed a decade there in the middle.

I have as much disdain for the glittering trashy tourists as the next crusty fuck… but I have equal disregard for those that want to “fix” the “problem” via mandates and strictures.

I think being an asshole is more than enough oppressive censure without institutionalizing someone’s shitty personal opinions on how things should be. The institution of Burning Man sucks ass… in my own shitty opinion. All these “solutions” have squelched much of the vitality out of the thing and replaced it with pretentious artifice and sanctimonious revisionism.

I’ve volunteered in several departments, produced large art and been involved in many projects over the decades (spotty attendance record) I couldn’t care less about anyone’s “cred” or their opinion of my approach. I’m here to kick up shit. A lot of my criticism revolve around the decisions of some of those oh so burnt burners… so
I’m not about to compare vestments. If that’s the basis for considering stances, I’m forever disadvantaged if those are the qualifications for veracity. Fuck that noise.

You can be safe, or you can be free. Pick one.

[Elliot]

... ...
Cameras have to go. Phones should not be allowed on the Playa. You have to talk to someone, then set up a central communication station people can use to make or receive calls.
... ...
I see people walking around with their heads buried in their phone, texting. They stop and take selfies right in front of art cars. One of them walked right into me and knocked me in front of a couple of e-bikes. I barely got out of the way.

Remember, there was a time no one had a cell phone. Just because they are so pervasive today, does not mean life will end without one.

e-scooters and e-bikes need to go. Too many people not paying attention and going way too fast.

[Skuzzy61]

Soooo Ungtartog, in your world, the asshat who almost got me killed did nothing wrong and it was my fault I was in his way? He has no personal responsibility for the people he impacts around him?

So when he knocks you in front of the art car and you end up in the hospital, you are going to be,..."Oh dude it was my fault for being in front of you, after all it's Burning Man,..it's not safe"?

Sure. What discussion do you want to have? I have heard a lot of ranting and raving, but not much in the way of anything I would call a discussion from you, so far.

Just for the sake of discussion, do you think people should not have any personal responsibility for their actions?

[Ungtartog]

**
"Soooo Ungtartog, in your world, the asshat who almost got me killed did nothing wrong and it was my fault I was in his way? He has no personal responsibility for the people he impacts around him?

So when he knocks you in front of the art car and you end up in the hospital, you are going to be,..."Oh dude it was my fault for being in front of you, after all it's Burning Man,..it's not safe"?

Sure. What discussion do you want to have? I have heard a lot of ranting and raving, but not much in the way of anything I would call a discussion from you, so far.

Just for the sake of discussion, do you think people should not have any personal responsibility for their actions?"
**

The only folks accountable for actions are those enacting them... which is one of many reasons it is ludicrous to presume any entity, corporate or otherwise should be held liable for the actions of others. In our effort to make things "safer" in the default world we have created a morass of regulations, rules and laws that act as a binding sticky bureaucratic web that is the anathema of creative expression. I would like to see the community that has had such a tremendous influence on me draw more upon it's creativity and reputed resourcesfulness to craft voluntary pathways to mitigate hazards and undesireable behaviors within our contingent.

What about the idea of condensing and clarifying the principals instead of expanding them? It is my contention that more "rules" are not going to do much to influence the poor behavior of bad actors and gross violators.

All great civil rights activists that I can think of, broke the law aggressively... in a public way... to serve the greater community. Following the law is not integral to serving justice. If we were to take this sentence in "civic responsibilty" literally... than anyone who imbibes scheduled substances on federal land is in violation.

I would also like to see more waxing on the "ethos" that the principals are supposed to help guide towards. I see the ethos in a state of erosion, and the most sacred aspects of it being subverted in the name of political and monetary ("solution") agendas.

I expect we are all some variation of adults and it is unneccessary to point out these are just opinions and should be regarded as such. I'm expressing what I think, what I like, what I don't like so much, and what I would like to see. I do not presume to tell anyone what to do, how or what to think, nor how "civilized" they should be in expressing themselves.

I like trolls, sacred clowns, and gutter mouths. Bring it.

[Elliot]

... ... ...
I like ... gutter mouths.

[Skuzzy61]

**
"Soooo Ungtartog, in your world, the asshat who almost got me killed did nothing wrong and it was my fault I was in his way? He has no personal responsibility for the people he impacts around him?

So when he knocks you in front of the art car and you end up in the hospital, you are going to be,..."Oh dude it was my fault for being in front of you, after all it's Burning Man,..it's not safe"?

Sure. What discussion do you want to have? I have heard a lot of ranting and raving, but not much in the way of anything I would call a discussion from you, so far.

Just for the sake of discussion, do you think people should not have any personal responsibility for their actions?"
**

The only folks accountable for actions are those enacting them... which is one of many reasons it is ludicrous to presume any entity, corporate or otherwise should be held liable for the actions of others. In our effort to make things "safer" in the default world we have created a morass of regulations, rules and laws that act as a binding sticky bureaucratic web that is the anathema of creative expression. I would like to see the community that has had such a tremendous influence on me draw more upon it's creativity and reputed resourcesfulness to craft voluntary pathways to mitigate hazards and undesireable behaviors within our contingent.

What about the idea of condensing and clarifying the principals instead of expanding them? It is my contention that more "rules" are not going to do much to influence the poor behavior of bad actors and gross violators.

All great civil rights activists that I can think of, broke the law aggressively... in a public way... to serve the greater community. Following the law is not integral to serving justice. If we were to take this sentence in "civic responsibilty" literally... than anyone who imbibes scheduled substances on federal land is in violation.

I would also like to see more waxing on the "ethos" that the principals are supposed to help guide towards. I see the ethos in a state of erosion, and the most sacred aspects of it being subverted in the name of political and monetary ("solution") agendas.

I expect we are all some variation of adults and it is unneccessary to point out these are just opinions and should be regarded as such. I'm expressing what I think, what I like, what I don't like so much, and what I would like to see. I do not presume to tell anyone what to do, how or what to think, nor how "civilized" they should be in expressing themselves.

I like trolls, sacred clowns, and gutter mouths. Bring it.

So you are arguing cause and effect. People act badly due to the rules or rules were created due to people acting badly. That horse has been severely beaten.

Did you know it is against the law to spit on a sidewalk in many areas of Texas? The law was created back when sidewalks were made of wood and the tobacco spit was causing the wood to rot. The law came about after signs were posted asking people to stop and they did not.

Society, as a whole, is a nasty beast. Without rules to contain it, anarchy is the result. History has proven this. The discussion here concerns modifying the rules. This is a good thing. Rules need to be reviewed, lest they become irrelevant. People will find ways to circumvent the rules.

In a society where respect for others, has been waning for years, the rules need to be checked.

How would you change the rules? That is what this thread is about.

[Captain Goddammit]

Who is this “we” you speak for?

No thanks. I don’t owe you anything. Not even my identity. I called someone out for making shitty condescending assumptions. My opinions don’t need qualifications. I’m not attempting to appeal to , nor act as an authority. If you have something intelligent or interesting to say, say it. Ideas don’t need egos behind them if they have any merit.

I don’t think I was condescending enough, I was giving you lots of benefit of doubt.

[penrose]

[quote=Sham post_id=1177731 time=1550005794 user_id=35000]
Immediacy
Immediate experience is, in many ways, the most important touchstone of value in our culture. We seek to overcome barriers that stand between us and a recognition of our inner selves, the reality of those around us, participation in society, and contact with a natural world exceeding human powers. No idea can substitute for this experience.
[/quote]

Mobile phone culture is destroying this fundamental value. More and more people hide within their little bubbles. Would it be possible for some technological genius to set up a cell network that completely prevents anyone contacting the outside world? This would surely violate some other principle but I don't care.

[wraith]

Let's talk consent.
And 'we'.

Most of the 'regulars' on this board know each other in (dusty) meat space. So that is 'we'.

I've been to twenty consecutive burns, several Juplayas, and regionals.
Every single year, at the main event, I've had to deal with men (yes, it is always men) who don't think they need my consent to touch/hug/grab me.
It is a problem, buddy.

I am not a young hottie, either.

You seem very aggressive, by the way.

This right here. Something I've had to drum into a number of assholes while working con security is that costume is not consent. Just because someone happens to be wearing something attractive (or a particularly nice coating of sunscreen and boots, given BRC), doesn't mean that they're your eye candy or play toy. Much less your next subject for monetization via what is legally speaking 'revenge porn'. Have a little common fucking respect for people.