Is this kind of structure very stable? (pic)

[HughMungus]

What I'm looking for is a shade structure to be the "public area" in our camp. It'll probably be backed up against an RV. What I'm wondering is how stable this is. Are the legs in this pic dug into the ground? If I didn't want to dig (which I know is frowned on), could I stick some rebar in the ground and attach the legs to that? Don't want it flying away.

Also, why is there overlap on the top "beams" (the parts that stick out on the left and right on this pic)?

Oh, and, what is the top cover in this pic? Canvas? Wood?

[lazyvegan]

my first year i built such a structure. it held up great, but the next year i dumped the wood for conduit. now it all goes together in no time. i'd recommend 1" conduit which can be re-used every year. and no digging is required either.

connect it all together with connectors like these-> http://www.shelters-to-go.com/low1galvanized.shtml ...i'd recommend the low-peak ones, and buy a 'good' tarp and bungee balls to make it taut/quiet. i use a 20x16' tarp, and cut the conduit to size. add some feet connectors too if you want. i normally run some rope/rebar as guylines to make sure i don't fly away to oz.

it has never failed me in 5 five years of luxurious desert living, and it really doen't get any simpler. and it's nice to get quick superquick shade in the blazing sun in no time. leaves me more time for building other stuff and drinking/whoring. peace....

[HughMungus]

Thanks, LV. On your wooden structure your first year, did you secure the "feet" somehow? Were they dug in?

I'm also considering the conduit + tarp type structure (I like its reusability but I was wondering if I could save $ with re-useable wood + screws instead of the conduit). How do you keep the feet in the ground in the wind? Do you have side drops? If so, how? I can figure out that part but wanted to find out the best way.

Thanks again.

my first year i built such a structure. it held up great, but the next year i dumped the wood for conduit. now it all goes together in no time. i'd recommend 1" conduit which can be re-used every year. and no digging is required either.

connect it all together with connectors like these-> http://www.shelters-to-go.com/low1galvanized.shtml ...i'd recommend the low-peak ones, and buy a 'good' tarp and bungee balls to make it taut/quiet. i use a 20x16' tarp, and cut the conduit to size. add some feet connectors too if you want. i normally run some rope/rebar as guylines to make sure i don't fly away to oz.

it has never failed me in 5 five years of luxurious desert living, and it really doen't get any simpler. and it's nice to get quick superquick shade in the blazing sun in no time. leaves me more time for building other stuff and drinking/whoring. peace....

[lazyvegan]

yeah i dug the wood in the first time with a post hole digger. it's pretty labor intensive work, although pouring water on the spot does help loosten things up. but it also makes for alot of playa-dust to keep around to re-fill those holes. if you choose to dig, bring a trash bag to put all that dust in so you LNT when you leave. if you really wanna use wood, you might consider adding some triangles to the connections for stability.

i used 4x4's on each corner and 2x4's as support. if i were to do it again i'd use all 4x4's except for the horizontal pieces. what you should use will depend on the size structure you're considering. do a test run before you bring it to the playa, and then imagine that structure in a hurricane. just make sure you got some 4x4's in there as using just 2x4's won't cut it. that's why i switched to conduit, much less bulky, lightweight, durable, ect..but then again, that first time i was using a heavy canvas tarp, not a lighter-weight one. good quality silver tarps are generally better than blue one's, and and are way cheaper/lighter than canvas. they keep out 'all' the sunlight too.

remember water will pool if there is no slant on top. it does rain 'on occasion', and sometimes it rains ALOT. boy scouts motto: be prepared. and the bigger the tarp/covering, the harder it is to make it taut, so be sure to add support length/width wise on top.

normally i just use guylines to keep it all from flying away, so no need for digging the feet in. you could prolly do the same with wood if you secure it all well enough, or even like you said, just secure the feet using rebar.

for walls, i use canvas tarps that i wrap the conduit in for transport, and some cammo netting my buddy stole from the army....maybe a sleeping bag or two...

and your right, wood is cheaper these days. the price of conduit has skyrocketed over the past few years. the guy at home depot said it's due to a worldwide steel shortage due to china buying up all the steel...but who know's...peace...good luck...

jeremy

SOAK*2005
http://www.portlandburners.com

[HughMungus]

Thanks again. Yeah, looking at the silver tarps.

One more question: How did you secure the walls? Just bungees from the horizontal supports?

Conduit or wood...hm...

Oh, and, by the way, this would be for a 20x20 space...

[lazyvegan]

i use bungee balls or rope to secure the walls both horizontaly and vertically....you could also use zip-ties, twine, rocks, ect...it kinda doesn't matter...a taut roof is more important...but angle the sides if you want real wind-resistance...xara style......

and if you're going 20x20 i'd say at least place a support every 10 feet, although i get away with an unsupported 16 foot span width-wise using the conduit connectors...peace..

[Nightterror]

I secure my conduit structure with 1/2" x 6' rebar. First I measure out a 10 x 10 square and in each corner I drive the rebar 18" into the Playa. Then I slide the conduit over the top of the rebar. No tie downs. The custom fit cover helps keep it tight. I figure if it can stand up to 2004's beating it can stand anything.

[HughMungus]

I was thinking about doing that, too, except that in that case, I'd secure one end of the tarp to the RV and the other to the verticals as you described to make an angle (and maybe guy lines on the rebar/conduit to keep it taut and to keep the wind from ripping the tarp off the rebar/conduit verticals).

I secure my conduit structure with 1/2" x 6' rebar. First I measure out a 10 x 10 square and in each corner I drive the rebar 18" into the Playa. Then I slide the conduit over the top of the rebar. No tie downs. The custom fit cover helps keep it tight. I figure if it can stand up to 2004's beating it can stand anything.

[AntiM]

Billbod vinyls custom cut and grommeted are better than cheap silver tarp and will last at least five years in the desert. Call your local outdoor vertising company and ask if they are getting rid of any. They cut with scissors and are frequently free.

[unjonharley]

I yard sale the tarps that are used at BM each year. They just would'nt stand two or more years.

[lazyvegan]

i may just be blessed by god, but my tarp has lasted me 5 years so far, and has been used outside bm too. i think the trick is to buy a good quality one and use bungee balls. they allow, well, 'bunginess' and keep all the pressure evenly spread out so the grommets don't break. peace.

[nocturnal_steve]

I had something similar and the area shaded will not be very large, the sun is (almost) never directly overhead, you will find that during the afternoon
especially more than half the area under the roof will be exposed to direct
sunlight . Putting shadecloth around the sides will help.

[robotland]

Also, why is there overlap on the top "beams" (the parts that stick out on the left and right on this pic)?

The overlap is so that little diagonal supports could be added to reduce the tendency of right-angle structures to collapse. Adding diagonals to any structure like this is highly reccomended. It doesn't have to be lumber necessarily- could be wire guylines, although they're a hazard unless marked. Little triangular corner braces cut from plywood work well too, and show up often in DPW architecture so I'd say they're effective.

[Das Bus]

We did a wood structure the 1st year, but have used the conduit type shade structure for the past 3 years, and it works great. As far as securing, we do the same as NightTerror and slip the poles over the rebar. Then hubby goes for overkill and uses additional rebar and guy wires next to the conduit.

[HughMungus]

Good point, thanks. I think I'm going to do a 20'x20' low-peak conduit/silver tarp setup with (some) sides.

I had something similar and the area shaded will not be very large, the sun is (almost) never directly overhead, you will find that during the afternoon
especially more than half the area under the roof will be exposed to direct
sunlight . Putting shadecloth around the sides will help.

[unjonharley]

When soom one looks at a shade like this one. They think of grass roof. Please do NOT bring the grass, The wind will break it up and blow it away. "Some one" will have to pick up every blade. The DPW will think of you in terms of KILL.

[HughMungus]

Yeah, I've seen the triangles a lot on the DPW's pics. But...I'm going with conduit this time (as much as I like the idea of using re-useable wood, the weight and bulk and, as someone said, dryness and rot kill it for me).

Also, why is there overlap on the top "beams" (the parts that stick out on the left and right on this pic)?

The overlap is so that little diagonal supports could be added to reduce the tendency of right-angle structures to collapse. Adding diagonals to any structure like this is highly reccomended. It doesn't have to be lumber necessarily- could be wire guylines, although they're a hazard unless marked. Little triangular corner braces cut from plywood work well too, and show up often in DPW architecture so I'd say they're effective.

[robotland]

Yep, I'm a conduit guy to the end....although I've toyed with the idea of an all-wooden dome or other structure, assembled either with no hardware or with easily removable bolts, that I could burn at week's end and have that much more room in the car on the way home....Currently I haul about 300 pounds worth of dome struts and deck/slide pieces.

[Bob]

re: the shade structure pic

Yes, it's stable (my DPW crew built these). The cover is near-horizontal, either grommeted shade cloth or geotextile "road cloth" from a lumber or concrete supplier. The posts we use are usually 12-ft 4x4s set in post holes drilled two to three feet deep, 12 ft on center. The beams vary -- a pair of 2x4, or a single 2x6. With the posts in the ground, we found bracing unnecessary unless the structure is out in the open. Overlapping the ends helps avoid splitting, but can be avoided with predrilling for the bolts or screws. Kick the center or edge posts up six inches if you want to shed water.

[ROOSTERSEjX]

Wood has a great look and can be burned at the end, (We cut up our wood and take it to the temple burn), but may not be reusable due to splitting and such. We have built wood shade with tarp, just like in your photo, for the past 3 years. Actually thought it was one of our structures until I had a closer look.
Remember that when standing the structure up, you will need people to help hold it in place. Even the lighest breeze will tend to split unsecured wood that has been screwed together.
We are trying conduit this year, our sister camp did such a structure and thay had it up in about an hour. Ours took quite a bit longer.
Also... bungee balls work great on tarps with grommets.
http://www.toolking.com/grip/view.asp?id=3898

[El_Niño]

These are my people...
I am in charge of Disorient's Kitchen (yes, there are people who need to eat behind the blinking sign ) and need to set up a shade structure for it. We were discussing technical solutions on our forum, and I am delighted to see that, as usual, "the Playa provides". Advise and expertise in this case.
Now, for dummies like me, can someone post URLs where they found good deals for conduit, silver tarp, bungee balls, aluminet, etc ? You will be rewarded with all the blinkiness, pornj and love that Di5orient is capable of. And God knows we can blink your head off with orange light and music.
Cheers
El Niño

PS: Note to an admin : there are enough Q&A about shade and sun alone to deserve a whole thread. Or I am a being a bloody French scientist asking for intellectual structure ?

[theCryptofishist]

Hey el Nino (sorry I don't work the tilda on this keyboard)
Great people in your camp--Panda and Neuron are just sweethearts and they've fed this fussy fish at least once.

(as for the number of threads on any one subject--anyone can start them so they will proliferate despite admin's opinions one way or the other.)




edited once to fix the wrong word