Discovery Channel at BM 2005

[Chai Guy]

Hello everyone,

If you're like me then you're probably as excited as a kid with his
nose pressed up against the glass of the candy store waiting for it to
open right about now.

I just wanted to let you know about something that will be happening
at this year's event that I personally find it disturbing and I
thought you should be aware of it.

The Discovery Times Channel, a 1.7 billion dollar cable television
network (a joint venture of The Discovery Channel and the New York
Times) will be filming an episode of their new t.v. program called
"Only in America". The tag line of the series is:

"Take an eye-opening journey across the country to experience
America's unique subcultures from the inside."

The Discovery Times Channel has negotiated a contract with Burning Man
LLC to film the show's host Charlie LeDuff as he "participates" in
building a theme camp, following Black Rock Rangers on patrol and
participating in some capacity with spinning fire inside the circle
before the man burns.

to see a video preview of this TV series please go here:
http://times.discovery.com/convergence/ ... eview.html
I apologize, but you'll have to sit through an ad before you are
allowed to watch it.

For the privilege of being allowed to film, The Discovery Times
Channel will be paying Burning Man LLC an as yet undisclosed fee.

I find this fee and the resulting ad revenue from this program to be a
commodification of everyone's art and image that participates in our
community. I feel that Burning Man LLC builds the box, and that we
fill it with our images, our art, and our souls. This city rises from
the dust because we raise it from the dust. Those that participate in
this experiment do so for a variety of reasons, however I don't feel
that selling products is usually one of them.

Once again it would appear to me that Burning Man LLC is violating
their own 10 Principles which they have set forth.
Principle #3

Decommodification
In order to preserve the spirit of gifting, our community seeks to
create social environments that are unmediated by commercial
sponsorships, transactions, or advertising. We stand ready to protect
our culture from such exploitation. We resist the substitution of
consumption for participatory experience

The images filmed at the event will be used to sell products in the
form of commercials during the airing of the tv program on The
Discovery Times Channel. It's a commercial sponsorship of the highest
order. Millions of people nationwide will be substituting a
participatory experience for the consumption of the images on their
screen.

A few years ago Burning Man LLC was in litigation with a company
called "Voyeur Video" who was distributing a "Girls Gone Wild" style
video filmed at the event. At that time Marian Goodell was quoted as
saying:

"It's not about controlling the press," says Marian Goodell,
Burning Man's "Mistress of Communications," who oversees the event's
public affairs. "It's about imagery. It's easy to turn imagery into a
commodity."

and:

Said Goodell, "We don't encourage radical self-expression so
people can find themselves for sale in a video store."

http://www.sfweekly.com/issues/2002-08- ... ure_1.html

Indeed it's very easy to turn imagery into a commodity, and that's
exactly what's happening here.

Please understand that I am not at all objecting to the presence of
legitimate media or documentary film makers being present with the
consent of Burning Man LLC at the event.

I am objecting to what essentially is a "Reality TV" show being
allowed to film the event. I am also objecting to the fact that
Burning Man LLC will be directly profiting from this endeavor that
will feature the art and images of participants.

I put a lot of energy, money, time and heart into this project. I do
it for my own personal gratification and for the gratification of
those who share the event with me. I don't do it to sell sneakers made
in sweatshops or breakfast cereals, or to promote the latest in
designer pharmaceuticals.

I have reached a boiling point on this issue so I've decided to pass
this information along allow everyone to make up their own minds about
it. I did however feel it important that you were made aware.

here are my questions to the LLC:

1. How much money will Burning Man LLC be receiving from this project
and how much of that money will be given back to the artists featured
in the film (if any)?

2. Is there a method to "opt-out" of having your image or art filmed
for this project? If so, what is it?

3. Will this project ever be sold in other formats? Who owns the
rights to the images filmed? Are there any licensing fees or
stipulations for promotional tie-ins or products associated with this
agreement (i.e. calendars from photos of the event, etc.)?

4. If nudity is filmed, will that nudity be aired without censorship
(blurs. black bars etc.) in the European or other markets? Will the
"nude" footage ever be released in a secondary format such as a DVD,
or streaming video on a website?

5. To what degree will Burning Man LLC have artistic control over the
final product? Will Burning Man LLC be able to veto any footage for
any reason?

6. What steps will Burning Man LLC be taking to prevent the Discovery
Times Channel from filming participants who do not wish to be filmed?
If unwilling participants are filmed and that film is aired, will
Burning Man LLC file litigation on behalf of that participant for
invasion of privacy or intellectual property rights theft?

7. Do you, at this time have the camera tag # for this film crew(s)
and if so what is it? If you do not have the tag # at this time, will
it made available upon request at Media Mecca during the event?

I would encourage you as a participant to contemplate the decision to
allow Discovery Times Channel to film and if you feel strongly one way
or another to please email Maid Marian, Mistress of Communication at
[email protected] to let her know exactly how you feel, either in
support of or against this issue.

Thanks for listening,

chai guy

[Mister Jellyfish Mister]

Valid points all, Chai Guy. I am gratefull for the hard work and excellent final product that is the movie Beyond Black Rock, and have not seen any nationwide broadcast of it and that's just fine with me.

Whatever amount of money is received from this transaction has a damn good chance of showing up as red ink that needs to be filled again next year and grow in need as does the event. Then theres this hungry little sore on their spreadsheet that is small at first but keeps growing with fiscal promise and ever so slight compromise of pricipals. Then, like my good friend Steve says: "Once you get in bed with the devil, sooner or later you have to fuck".

[robotland]

Then, like my good friend Steve says: "Once you get in bed with the devil, sooner or later you have to fuck".

Wise folks, them Steves.....

I'm of two minds on this thing....Especially since I'm a hungry consumer of such Discovery fare as Mythbusters, Monster Whatever and so on. A lot of Burner Technology And Culture leaks over into that stuff. I'm sure I'd watch that show, although the travelogue-format things are some of their weakest- Case in point would be the "Most Haunted Tourist Traps" type of junk.
The Burning Man segment that The Travel Channel aired a few years back was the first visual exposure to the event for me, and helped cement my resolve to attend. But Chai's also right about the commercialization and intrusion aspects. Burning Man is a perennial source of news filler, and even the Kalamazoo Gazette has run articles about it. Turning it into New Year's Rockin' Eve would be sick and wrong, but I'm not sure that I fundamentally object to the world knowing about us.
Maybe just Second Base With The Devil for now's okay.

[DaBomb]

I've covered this over on tribe. I'm glad you posted it here too, Chai. The more people who are aware of this is better for the community.

http://losangeles.tribe.net/thread/7d1f ... 80&r=10025

It goes against the core principles of BM to do this and they have sold us out from under in so doing. They have compromised their values in order to make a buck and to get some free publicity for the event. And they're using our art to do it.

Perhaps its true, as a friend of mine within BMorg has told me, nobody is getting rich by putting on this event. But it's also true that this event is not headed by a bunch of starving artists either. I believe it's run by a intelligent and well meaning individuals who need to understand that the community makes the event. Not the other way around.

[theCryptofishist]

Perhaps its true, as a friend of mine within BMorg has told me, nobody is getting rich by putting on this event. But it's also true that this event is not headed by a bunch of starving artists either. I believe it's run by a intelligent and well meaning individuals who need to understand that the community makes the event. Not the other way around.

Wow. I like that.

[Kinetic IV]

I'm reading this but resisting the urge to launch verbal strikes because I have a hunch there's more to this than we're seeing. Has anyone from the ORG made any comments about this, both officially or unofficially?

[Bob A]

I don't really see how this is any different than any other documentary or news segment. I myself own 4 or 5 videos about BM like Beyond Blackrock, Gifting it etc. People who do documentaries hope to make some money off them eventually. I see two or 3 specials about burningman a year on TV. These specials include commercials some misinformation, some partial nudity etc. The news segments are biased at best, and don't anybody delude themselves, news is about making money from the commercials.

Do people who film at burning man have to be true burners? And who is to decide what a true burner is?

As far as the org getting money, why not? Every time someone films a documentary at burning man there is a chance it will make money. The org never gets any of this money. In this case they are, all it can do is help us. No matter how you cut it any money they get for this will help keep down the rising costs of doing the event. No I'm not saying this will lower ticket prices next year, but it might just help keep them from going up a little bit.

Now if Discovery brings advertising to the playa, I’ll have a big problem. If they pull up in two trailer trucks with discovery show all over them and hang banners around their theme camp for the show that will suck. If the film crews are big and intrusive wearing Discovery channel shirts that will suck. If the crews interfere with our experience that will suck. But if they do we get their camera tag number and report them.

Ideally I would love there to be no commercial crews at burningman no documentaries etc. I'd love to have no fear of showing up in anyone’s pictures doing something that I’d rather not have the outside world see. But that’s not going to happen. And heck if there were no outside films I would have never found out about BM and be so happy now.

Chai why do you want their tag ahead of time? Tags are to report abuse. IF they do something you don't like then you ask for their tag number if they refuse to tell you, tell a ranger. Knowing it ahead of time does not serve any purpose.

All in all lets just hope that Media Mecca is doing their job and keeping these guys under control. In the end the org does not want to I don't really see how this is any different than any other documentary or news segment. I myself own 4 or 5 videos about BM like Beyond Blackrock, Gifting it etc. People who do documentaries hope to make some money off them eventually. I see two or 3 specials about burningman a year on TV. These specials include commercials some misinformation, some partial nudity etc. The news segments are biased at best, and don't anybody delude themselves, news is about making money from the commercials.

Do people who film at burning man have to be true burners? And who is to decide what a true burner is?

As far as the org getting money, why not? Every time someone films a documentary at burning man there is a chance it will make money. The org never gets any of this money. In this case they are, all it can do is help us. No matter how you cut it any money they get for this will help keep down the rising costs of doing the event. No I'm not saying this will lower ticket prices next year, but it might just help keep them from going up a little bit.

Now if Discovery brings advertising to the playa, I’ll have a big problem. If they pull up in two trailer trucks with discovery show all over them and hang banners around their theme camp for the show that will suck. If the film crews are big and intrusive wearing Discovery channel shirts that will suck. If the crews interfere with our experience that will suck. But if they do we get their camera tag number and report them.

Ideally I would love there to be no commercial crews at burningman no documentaries etc. I'd love to have no fear of showing up in anyone’s pictures doing something that I’d rather not have the outside world see. But that’s not going to happen. And heck if there were no outside films I would have never found out about BM and be so happy now.

Chai why do you want their tag ahead of time? Tags are to report abuse. IF they do something you don't like then you ask for their tag number if they refuse to tell you, tell a ranger. Knowing it ahead of time does not serve any purpose.

All in all lets just hope that Media Mecca is doing their job and keeping these guys under control. In the end the org does not want to piss us all off so I’m sure they have thought of lots of the possible problems and have planned to prevent them.

Bob A

[Chai Guy]

I'm encouraging everyone to send a letter to Marian with his or her own questions. One of the reasons I brought this debate over from Tribe is that the discussion over there drifted to many different aspects of the media and Burning Man. I would like to keep this discussion on topic if at all possible and start a separate(s) thread for other debates.

I have no problem with a legitimate news source, or documentary filmmaker recording the event. The problem I have is with the fact that Burning Man is being paid under the guise of a "site fee", in reality it's payment for images that are created and owned not by Burning Man, but by you and I, the "participants". At it's best, it's "check book journalism" at it's worst, it's a one hour commercial for Burning Man LLC.

Burning Man is out there in the media, the Genie is out of the bottle and ain't going back in, and it has been for a long time, going all the way back to the now infamous "Wired" article. I'm not concerned about the event being "over-run" by uncool people (fratboys, yahoos, ravers, insert your least favorite component <here>). I am concerned about our event, the one that we all work so hard for, being used to sell useless plastic crap for corporate america.

I have heard various things from several different people. I do know that a producer from the show appeared at the L.A. Fire Conclave last week unbeknownst to any of it's participants. It was only after someone asked who this stranger was, that an announcement was made regarding his identity and affiliation with the t.v. show.

There is an immediacy to the this problem however, next week we will all be on the playa with this film crew. Whatever images they film and edit and eventually air will be there forever.

I feel this crew has been granted some special privileges with regards to following around Rangers, and performing inside the circle before the Man burns with the Fire Conclave. The Ranger issue really concerns me because I feel that it could lead to an unsafe situation (for example a participant in need feeling unable to contact a Ranger because they fear being identified on camera). The Rangers have worked hard over many years to establish a trust with the community, is this project really worth jeopardizing that trust?

Again, I encourage everyone to ask their own questions and to come to their own conclusions on this issue and to express those opinions to the organization before you leave for the playa.

Thanks.

[dj big E]

Point me to craft services and make up please lol.

[theCryptofishist]

Hey, will there be a catering truck? Can I scrounge meals there? Cause I:

Will Sacrifice Radical Self-Reliance for Food.

*fishy runs for tee-shirts and sharpies*

[Bob A]

I have no problem with a legitimate news source, or documentary filmmaker recording the event. The problem I have is with the fact that Burning Man is being paid under the guise of a "site fee", in reality it's payment for images that are created and owned not by Burning Man, but by you and I, the "participants".



Thanks.

Well according to the open statement on tribe and what Maid Marion said all people who film for profit pay something back to the org either a flat fee or percentage of future sales and it has been this way for years. I was mistaken in my previous post that they do not get any money. So this is the same as any other team except maybe the amount are higher since the profit may be higher. And like someone else said this is the Discovery channel not Fox, so it is edu-entertainment. So this cat is long out of the bag, as far as the org making money off of your art. And again any money they make off your art is helping get more art there next year and keep costs down.

There is an immediacy to the this problem however, next week we will all be on the playa with this film crew. Whatever images they film and edit and eventually air will be there forever.

We have a right to ask anyone not to film us. That is on the ticket and in all the literature about film crews. IF you see them point a camera at you tell them to stop.

I feel this crew has been granted some special privileges with regards to following around Rangers, and performing inside the circle before the Man burns with the Fire Conclave. The Ranger issue really concerns me because I feel that it could lead to an unsafe situation (for example a participant in need feeling unable to contact a Ranger because they fear being identified on camera). The Rangers have worked hard over many years to establish a trust with the community, is this project really worth jeopardizing that trust?



Thanks.

You feel, but you do not know to what degree. And anything they have been granted can't be outside what has already been "granted" to us as participants. So if this guy learns to spin fire why shouldn't he be able to join the fire circle. If he follows the same process as all the other members. He is a person at Burning man; can't he do the same things?

Yes the rangers does sound a little odd, but I'm sure they will respect the situation and this is not cops. Plus people can still say no stop filming and the rangers will be right there to enforce it. Also if they are going to feature someone, Discovery would need them to sign a waver, I think. Heck all those idiots on Cops sign wavers so people can watch them get arrested.

Bob A

[Chai Guy]

I don't really see how this is any different than any other documentary or news segment.

The News and most documentaries don't pay a fee to film their subjects. It's considered suspect. See "check book journalism"
http://www.ajr.org/Article.asp?id=461

Do people who film at burning man have to be true burners? And who is to decide what a true burner is?

No, I don't think so, in fact I think it might even make a more interesting story to take a look at the event through the eyes of someone who has never been before. I know that personally one of the things that keeps things fresh for me is hanging out with virgin burners every year.

I do however believe that if a person wants to spin fire inside the circle that they should be made to adhere to the same rules and expectations of all other members of Fire Conclave. I believe that if a person wants to follow Rangers around, they should have, at the least, attended Ranger Training (I still think following Rangers around with a camera is perhaps the worst idea ever).

As far as the org getting money, why not? Every time someone films a documentary at burning man there is a chance it will make money. The org never gets any of this money.

In speaking with people who have made BM documentaries, the standard fee is 10% goes to Burning Man LLC and they retain the film in the archive for promotional purposes.

Chai why do you want their tag ahead of time? Tags are to report abuse. IF they do something you don't like then you ask for their tag number if they refuse to tell you, tell a ranger. Knowing it ahead of time does not serve any purpose.

I would like to be able to differentiate the legitimate documentary film maker trying to capture the event from the reality tv show. If I wanted to be on a reality tv show I'd audition for one that offered a free trip around the world and a million dollar prize for winning, and if any producers from that show are reading this you can contact me at [email protected]

All in all lets just hope that Media Mecca is doing their job and keeping these guys under control.

And that's kind of my point too, that this isn't so much a "documentary" or news program but rather an joint venture of Discovery Times and Burning Man LLC, in which, aside from being paid, Burning Man LLC is also viewing this as an hour-long commercial for the event. I have no problem with that, really, but it shouldn't be disguised as a documentary, and Burning Man LLC shouldn't be enlisting an unsuspecting community to act in it's commercial for free.

In the end the org does not want to piss us all off so I’m sure they have thought of lots of the possible problems and have planned to prevent them.

I don't think the org really cares about pissing anyone off. In fact, I think the people who would have been really pissed about this issue left the event a long time ago. I'm not sure if they've thought about the problems, or what they've done to prevent them. I'd like to know more, which is why I've posed these questions and I encourage everyone else to do the same. We don't have much time.

[robotland]

(RANGERS is filmed on location with the men and women of BRC Public Service.)

Frat Boys Frat Boys
Watcha Gonna Do
Watcha Gonna Do When They Come For You

[Chai Guy]

So this is the same as any other team except maybe the amount are higher since the profit may be higher.

To the best of my knowledge no official statement has been made regarding how much the fee is, if it is a flat fee or a % of the profit. This is my question to the organization. I could not find the open letter from Marian on Tribe that you referenced, if you could post a link to it here I would appreciate it.

And again any money they make off your art is helping get more art there next year and keep costs down.

I have no idea what they're going to be doing with this money. That they are going to use it to lower or maintain ticket prices or fund art is pure speculation. This is another question I would like answered.

You feel, but you do not know to what degree. And anything they have been granted can't be outside what has already been "granted" to us as participants. So if this guy learns to spin fire why shouldn't he be able to join the fire circle. If he follows the same process as all the other members. He is a person at Burning man; can't he do the same things?

I think if I showed up at L.A. Fire Conclave, 3 weeks prior to the burn, I'd be told to come back next year, what do you think?

I think if I showed up and asked to follow some Black Rock Rangers around with a camera, without having attended a Ranger Training, I'd be told to get lost. What do you think?

We have a right to ask anyone not to film us. That is on the ticket and in all the literature about film crews. IF you see them point a camera at you tell them to stop.

Are you always aware of someone filming you? In the past 7 years at the event I've stopped MANY people from filming participants who I KNEW were not aware that they were being filmed (and I knew, because I asked them "are you aware that you're being filmed right now?")

The ticket states that: "You appoint Burning Man to protect your intellectual property or privacy rights, recognizing that Burning Man has no obligation to take any action whatsoever."

Yet another question, what will Burning Man do if my image or art appears in this "documentary" without my consent? Will they invoke their right to take no action whatsoever? I believe they will.

[spectabillis]

Yes, the whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.



minds sluggish on television screens,
a muted static of observation - your opiate
those anesthesia infomercials and buzz,
all of slack and holding.

and a swelling gasp
to choke and throttle my thoughts that stay
this ominous course of lurking malaise,
a taste, acidic and numb.

to steal privacy and passion, a commerce display
sponsoring a slow molest of our ideals.

and you consume -
those invisible threads we share,
those that push of creation and sweat.

[theCryptofishist]

(RANGERS is filmed on location with the men and women of BRC Public Service.)

Frat Boys Frat Boys
Watcha Gonna Do
Watcha Gonna Do When They Come For You

*fishy flopping on floor laughing*

[theCryptofishist]

I think if I showed up and asked to follow some Black Rock Rangers around with a camera, without having attended a Ranger Training, I'd be told to get lost. What do you think?

I think it represents a wonderful opportunity for improvisational performance art. Imagine if the first call they are on is you and Badger arguing hotly about camping space. Then a dispute about who trespassed on who's art. And someone, somewhere sez "Do you know who I am?" The one thing I think we shouldn't show them is actual rangering. They want a show? Let's give them one!

[Bob A]

So this is the same as any other team except maybe the amount are higher since the profit may be higher.

To the best of my knowledge no official statement has been made regarding how much the fee is, if it is a flat fee or a % of the profit. This is my question to the organization. I could not find the open letter from Marian on Tribe that you referenced, if you could post a link to it here I would appreciate it.

And again any money they make off your art is helping get more art there next year and keep costs down.

I have no idea what they're going to be doing with this money. That they are going to use it to lower or maintain ticket prices or fund art is pure speculation. This is another question I would like answered.

Money is money. They get x millions of dollar in every year and by the end it is all gone. So yes any funds that go in go for the event or other costs one way or the other. So more money in means less cuts or less ticket increases in the end.

As far as a letter from Marian it was the opening message to the link that dabam mentioned.

http://losangeles.tribe.net/thread/7d1f ... 615939ad9a 1?tribeid=2a015c8a-8c2f-4657-8716-9395874aa780&r=10025

It wasn’t a letter from Marian but it quoted things she supposedly said. Whether she actually said it, who knows, but the OP in that thread quotes her.

But if we assume that it is true then they reserve the right of a percentage of future profits or a flat fee from pretty much everybody. Yes News is probably exempt but documentaries would be included I think.

I guess you could read all the media Mecca stuff to find out what the policies and contracts are, I don't really have time. But honestly I think that this type of thing has happened many times before, and it was just under the radar, this one is just very visible to us burners.

Heck I've watched specials about burning man on Discovery or TLC before. I saw burning man art cars with footage from the event on one of those extreme car shows.

From what I've read before big crews get a lot more attention including interviews with Larry access behind the scenes and up to full time media Mecca contact. Small groups share contacts and get less special attention, but if they have a good idea they get access to extra stuff too.

All we can do is wait and see at this point since almost everybody in charge is on the playa and very busy.

Bob a

[Chai Guy]

So more money in means less cuts or less ticket increases in the end.

Again, No, no it does not. Burning Man LLC sets the ticket price at whatever level they feel people will pay. Just because they received more money does not mean that they will pass that savings along to the participants.

I guess you could read all the media Mecca stuff to find out what the policies and contracts are

I've read everything I could get my hands on, if anyone finds out what the policies and contracts are please post the link here.


I did find this from:
http://www.burningman.com/press/pressRandR.html

The Burning Man name, logo, and Black Rock City-specific imagery are the

property of the Black Rock City LLC. None of these items can be used in association with any commercial venture, advertising campaign, nor sold or transferred to a third party, without prior written consent from Black Rock City LLC.
Black Rock City-specific imagery includes images of the Man and Burning Man commissioned artworks, aerial views of Black Rock City and any other imagery that can be identified specifically with the Burning Man event. If you have any questions, email press(at)burningman(dot)com.

Do this, take a picture at Burning Man of something you made (like a hat or scarf or whatever) , don't include any of the images owned by Burning Man LLC (like the Man or commissioned art work) just take the pic out on the playa with NOTHING in the background, then post that picture and try to sell your item on ebay. Burning Man LLC will have a cease and desist email in your inbox before the close of your 5 day auction.

Burning Man vigorously protects it's copyrights and intellectual property, it cares little however about YOUR copyrights and intellectual property and in fact is willing to sell you and your art to the Discovery Channel.

Heck I've watched specials about burning man on Discovery or TLC before. I saw burning man art cars with footage from the event on one of those extreme car shows.

I've not seen the show on TLC that several people have described, I have seen the other Discovery Show "Monster Nation" that featured several art cars that were seen at the event (i.e. Draka and La Contessa) this footage was filmed on the Playa but NOT at the event. That's fine by me, it's their art. If Discovery Channel wants to come over to my house to film my chai cart, I say "pay up sucker" and let's do this!

At any rate, I would be against anyone filming a t.v. series for commercial purposes at Burning Man, past, present or future.

eta: repair link

[Dr. Pyro]

If they don't show Barbie Death Camp, I'll be bummed.

[Chai Guy]

Hey Doc,

Prepare to be bummed. Discovery Channel can't risk offending one of their major sponsors, Mattel, which also manufactures several "Discovery Channel" branded products such as the Discovery Channel ViewMaster. For that matter they can't risk any possible law suits from other corporations. So you won't be seeing any parodies of any products or corporations on the Discovery Channel's "Only in America" special on Burning Man, including Costco Soul Mate Trading Outlet, or Starfucks. Everything you see will be sanitized for mainstream America.

Two quotes from Larry Harvey:

http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/20 ... /50665.php

“But now, in this newest phase of the development, we’re going back to the world,” he said. “I don’t want to be a subculture — I want to enter the mainstream culture, but on our terms.”

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/lifestyle ... ngman.html

"We're a model that can be applied to your hometown," Harvey says. "A lot of people come to the event, especially younger people, and the world to them, the world they've grown up in, is dominated by television and advertising, and the world to them is a big vending machine. They're mall kids."

eta: fix bad links

[Bob A]

Chai,

I never thought you were in the camp that thinks Larry and gang are making a ton of money on this. I choose to go the other way and think they make a decent living after struggling for many years. I don't think they inflate ticket prices or charge what the market can bare. I think they charge what they need to run a small staff and a huge event.

As far as your first quote in your last post you are taking that out of context. That article is about the regional groups and how they are spreading burning man out to more people. We are helping local artists on small local scales and helping to bring communities together. The local groups help the local communities by volunteering some time for art or public service etc. Or they throw kick ass events like PDF

Well I got a lot of work to do I’m driving out in 4 days and still have lots of things to do. I hope to see you out there this year Chai ( no politics out there though) I never found your cart last year. I’m running a bar bike this year with hard Cider, freezer pops, Ice tea, frozen drinks and maybe tacos a couple of times during the week.

See you out there

Bob A

[fetching]

I am concerned about our event, the one that we all work so hard for, being used to sell useless plastic crap for corporate america.

chai, before i address what i just quoted there, i just want to say i really appreciate the eloquent and impassioned way in which you brought this issue to our attention. It's nice to see someone defend something they love, especially when they risk coming off like looking like they are bitter and bitching about.

I agree with a lot of the points you've made. As a first timer to the event, I can't really talk about the specifics, but I can say that i have been involved before with community projects that have been commercialized against the participant's wishes, so many of the points you raise are valid. there is reason to be concerned, and i will be interested in how this plays out.

now to address what i quoted....

i have to admit that there's something a little ironic about what you said. As i prepare for this event, I'm somewhat appalled at the unbridled consumerism happening in order to prepare for a week of a "gift economy". How many thousands of dollars in profit will walmart see as people stock up on cheap tents and coolers made with slave labor in china, in order to live off the grid in the desert for a week? And for all the concern about the ecology of the playa, we don't seem to care much for the rest of the globe as we fly and drive from all over the planet to be here for this event. how much "no blood for oil" gas will be consumed by the RV's and art cars and vehicles to take us there? how much goes up in a toxic cloud as artists burn their art, or create art where fire and smoke IS the art? as a an event that's supposed to "leave no trace", is that only a credo that's extended to the playa and the official boundaries of the event? you may be packing out all the garbage you've created during your stay, but it does end up somewhere.

This board is a really good example of what I am talking about. Instead of people hauling some water, food and tents to this thing in the desert where they get together and form an alternative society, most people here seem to desire every luxury and convenience from home with them, and in many ways it's no better than the RV generation that alot of us probably laugh at who need to take a TV in their motorhome while they're "getting away from it all". Isn't part of the draw and delight of the event the fact that a temporary city is built in the middle of fucking nowhere, a city where you can attend an AA meeting, or get a henna tattoo, or dance to thumpa thumpa music all night long...a city where you can get pretty much whatever you want 24 hours a day?

in short, we're consumers of the worst kind, and hypocrites. we leave a trace that's global instead of merely local. we justify our consumerism, but it's still consumerism.

I'm not sure how one type of commmercialism/consumerism is preferable over another.

[fetching]

double post.

[allanon2]

Hello everyone,

If you're like me then you're probably as excited as a kid with his
nose pressed up against the glass of the candy store waiting for it to
open right about now.

chai guy

This is a business to BMORG they create the rules but they do not follow them. This has been demonstrated numerous times.

so the big question si will you people put up with it? your faces will be plasterd all over the TV.
Big corportation will be makign money of your hard work and sweat. You will be exploited by comercialism. Yet when push comes to shove your event is more important that your personal views.

face it BMORG is a bunch of hipocrits.. Are you?

prove me wrong!! show me that your eprosnal views are number one and tell BMORG to stop discovery channel from coming.

BMORG is gettign a peice of the profits from the event that is why it is a as of yet undiscloed amount?

hrmm
allanon
aka rex

[spectabillis]

If they don't show Barbie Death Camp, I'll be bummed.

Would make for some excellent stop-motion hyjinx - except you are dealing with documentaries. Have about as much creative artistic license as filming a rock.

[ibdave]

If any participant asks you to stop filming, you must stop immediately. If you continue to photograph or film, you face the possibility of being escorted from the event.


So here's the deal, We get a bunch of Participants to follow the film crews around and ask the to stop filming. Yes??

Chai Guy, I agree with you. I also post my views about the new T.V. show filming on the Playa..
Current TV (www.current.tv) is launching August 1 with 25% of our content shot, produced, and edited by our audience. This year at Burning Man we're looking for a First Time Attendees that we can supply with cameras to document their adventures in Black Rock City. Your story, through your eyes will be professionally edited and aired on Current TV, the new collaborative television network created by former Vice President Al Gore.

[Isotopia]

I never thought you were in the camp that thinks Larry and gang are making a ton of money on this. I choose to go the other way and think they make a decent living after struggling for many years.

I don't think anyone here is begrudging anyone making a good living. Hell, I'm a practising capitalist myself. I think the sore spot (seems to me) is a small group of folk making a (seemingly) bad decision that seems to run contrary - or seems to - to basic (and stated) tenets of what the event is and isn't about.

[TemporaryMan]

OK then, If Discovery Channel is going to film me in all my creative grandeur, I guess that makes me the star.....right? Well then, as part of my rider I want M&Ms......and all the green ones must be removed. Seriously, though, if you want comodification, the best way to do it is by getting the Discovery Channel involved. The only thing they discover is advertising revenue. I don't care if the world knows about BM. In fact the world SHOULD know about BM. But not from the people at Discovery Channel. It is the antithesis of our adventure. I only hope it is not the beginning of the end of a wonderful idea.

[Chai Guy]

Bob A,

I hope Larry and everyone that works for Burning Man get stinking rich off this thing. They put in the work, they stuck with it when the LLC was in the Red and they were begging people for money to pay off their debt so they could come back and do it again the next year. It's a brutal job and I believe they should be well compensated.

I will look for your bar bike! Sounds like a blast, and please look for me too, I'll be camped at 7:30 and Fetish at the Provider Camp or you can find me at the Free Chai Revolution on Friday in front of Center Camp. I promise no politics on the playa.

Fetching,

You certainly raised some valid concerns and you're not the first person to raise them, that's for sure. I once heard that "Burning Man is not a Leave-no-trace event, it's a Leave-no-trace-there event". This is an experiment, and while I believe that Burning Man was never intended, nor ever will be an "eco-friendly" event, there is certainly room for vast improvement. For some interesting ideas on this subject I suggest you read the "Thank you for not gifting me" thread.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you asked how one type of consumerism is preferable to another. I agree, it's not. That's also another reason why this angers me so. We're going to be perpetuating consumerism on an even grander scale through advertising on this program.

Iso,

As always, you are right on the money!
<chai runs to freshen up mommy's cocktail>

I went into this experiment with some basic precepts. The first was that Burning Man LLC was going to build the container. We, the participants, would facilitate that through buying tickets and volunteering for any thing the container required.

The next was that there were NO SPECTATORS, everyone was the rock star, a performer. If you wanted something, if you needed something, you provided it for yourself and for others. If you thought "There oughta be a...." then you could do it, you might not get any help, but at least no one was going to tell you "NO".

Along the way some things got changed, some for the better, and some for the worse. Concessions were made to accommodate a larger group of participants. Cars were outlawed, along with guns, and dogs and fireworks, and burning stuff on the playa and the list goes on. Again, I'm not judging any of those things, it's just what happened.

Some people thought those things made the event and they left. For me, what made the event was something else. For me, what made the event was the immediacy, the city rising up from the dust, existing for the week and then vanishing in an evening set ablaze. There was something really magical about the intimacy I shared with the people I encountered each week before Labor Day on the Playa.

I'm still just as willing to facilitate that container as ever. I'm willing to buy my ticket to pay for it and volunteer to build it and fill it with my art. What I'm not so willing to do is to have someone else commodify it to sell products that I do not use or believe in.

If back-door sponsorships like this one with Discovery Channel are what it takes to keep this thing going. I'm ok with that, just be honest about it and stop the ride for a second, because I'd like to get off.



I'm going to be heading out to the playa now so I won't be on the eplaya until after the event. I will resume commenting on this thread when I return. Everyone drive safe out there and I hope to see you all on the playa!

Chai Guy <out>