Ultimate Straight Answer on Camp Fires / Tiki Torches

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benthegrate
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Ultimate Straight Answer on Camp Fires / Tiki Torches

Post by benthegrate » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:09 pm

I understand that camp fires and tiki torches were officially banned at past events. However, nothing in the Survival Guide or the preparation>event survival>safety page ban camp fires or tiki torches. They just specify that all fires must be contained and not contact the playa surface.

But I still read in some forum threads that both are still banned. I saw an obscure link posted somewhere to an old page buried in the Burning Man website. You'd think something as important as a ban on camp fires and tiki torches would be addressed in the Survival Guide.

Can anyone give a straight, definitive answer as to whether these things are officially banned in 2008? I've been reading the forum for days and just get more and more confused...

Thanks a million!

Ben :-)

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AntiM
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Post by AntiM » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:26 pm

I don't think the word "banned" is currently used concerning torches, but the fire safety guidelines are so restrictive, that having tiki torches is a real pain in the ass. Definitely no uncontained camp fires. The info is all over the official site in various recommended and required readings, if not in the actual printed Survival Guide. Yes, you're supposed to do your homework to that extent.
Candles, Tiki Torches, open flames:

Charming, but not ideal at Burning Man. These are discouraged because of the obvious fire danger should they be knocked or blown over. Tiki torches are especially discouraged, as they seem to blow over quite easily in the playa winds and can be rather difficult to get anchored well in the soft playa. They cannot be left unattended. You should avoid having any open fire in your camp unless you can make sure that it will be watched over by someone responsible at all times. A burning tent in high winds could become a real disaster instantly. Our page on Playa Protection and Burn Scar Prevention has additional information on open fire at Burning Man and additional fire safety information can be found on our Creating Dangerous Art Safely page.
Q. So what's the deal with fire?
A. Here's the deal with open fire within theme camps. Everyone enjoys a campfire around which to gather, or the light of a tiki torch to guide them back to camp at night, but open fire presents a unique set of challenges on the playa. Wind is an ever-present aspect of the Black Rock desert and must be taken into consideration. Winds can blow sparks and embers out of fire barrels and blow them across the open playa great distances until they settle against something (tents, shade structures, camping gear, art works, etc.). Wind is also a factor with tiki torches and taller flame effects. Precautions should be taken to prevent the wind from knocking them over, and a sufficient perimeter around them kept clear from flammables. To help you prepare for and use open flame or flame effects in your camp we have created these guidelines to help keep your camp safe and to protect the safety of participants. Please read them thoroughly.
Guidelines for open fires, burn barrels, tiki torches etc within theme camps:

1. No fire barrels or open fires shall be left unattended. At least one camp member will be designated fire tender and be within visual distance at all times. If found unattended while lit, open fires or burn barrels may be extinguished and/or confiscated if there is sufficient hazard.
2. If winds pick up, all open fires must be put out immediately and burn barrels must be extinguished if they begin to throw sparks.
3. Open fire above 10 feet tall shall be secured from the wind and the safety perimeter increased appropriately.
4. Open fire or burn barrels must be extinguished at the request of any Ranger or Emergency Services personnel.
5. A 20-foot Zone around the fire must be free of any flammable materials, such as but not limited to: cloth, paper, tents, plastic, etc.
6. All liquid fuels must be kept at least 50 feet away from any open flame. Please check out the guidelines for the storage of fuels at Burning Man.
7. A supply of at least 5 gallons of water must be kept on hand to extinguish the fire in case of high winds (wind can blow embers and sparks a long distance on the playa!) or other hazards.
8. Burn barrels shall be secured and constructed in a way that the burning surface is at least 6 inches from the playa to prevent baking or scarring of the playa surface.
9. Note: please remember that gasoline is a dangerous fuel to use to start fires. Explosive vapors can instantly build up as it is applied and as the fire is lit it can flash and burn you!

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phil
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Post by phil » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:58 pm

I note that "within theme camps" seems to be a recurrent theme.

benthegrate
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Post by benthegrate » Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:10 pm

So is a chiminea considered contained or uncontained? It keeps heat off the playa, is surrounded on virtually all sides, and easy to smother or extinguish if the wind picks up.

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Post by AntiM » Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:31 pm

I'd call it contained, we have one but have never considered taking it. Don't want to watch it while sober constantly and hauling the ash out requires more logistics with metal containers than we care to deal with. Other than that, they are pretty. But there's so much to do away from camp at night, I can't see wanting to babysit such a thing. Unless you're a big theme camp with people on hand to do Chiminea duty all evening?

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Token
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Post by Token » Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:38 pm

Save yourself the trouble and just go to Gigsville for a bonfire extraordinaire.

Any good neighbor will piss on your fire if you leave it unattended for even a minute.

T

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Post by benthegrate » Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:45 pm

I'm a hard core camper, I never leave a fire unattended, regardless of where I am. I'm going to be our camp manager/custodian. Don't plan on leaving camp very often this year.

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ibdave
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Post by ibdave » Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:52 pm

In the past years a few sparks have drift and started a few small fires. Tents ect ect.. The main reason for no fires in camp is the closeness factor of everyone.. At Gigsville the fire pit is in a LARGE open area and sparks are not an issue. Certain wood dry or not tend to let ambers fly. Now look at those firelogs and they don't crackle and pop and have color flames.. :roll:


Now back to your regularly scheduled program..... 8) 8) 8)
I was Born OK the 1st Time....

Don't bring defaultia to Burning Man, take Burning Man to defaultia...... graidawg

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MikeVDS
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Post by MikeVDS » Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:20 pm

Just remember that if you're in Gigsville and someone yells "Fire in the hole!" to grab your chair and RUN!
[img]http://tikifuckos.org/anisign.gif[/img]

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Post by DoriumLux » Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:43 pm

Get Solar Tiki Torches.

They can be had at Target and plenty of online retailers.

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Token
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Post by Token » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:00 pm

MikeVDS wrote:Just remember that if you're in Gigsville and someone yells "Fire in the hole!" to grab your chair and RUN!
Why, did you get a 2x4 explode from the carbecue and lodge itself in your a...

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Post by Token » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:12 pm

benthegrate wrote:I'm a hard core camper, I never leave a fire unattended, regardless of where I am. I'm going to be our camp manager/custodian. Don't plan on leaving camp very often this year.
So, you are going to rationalize this until you get confirmation?

What if you get dosed, impale yourself on some unmarked rebar, get lucky and land some fine Playa ass, and your camp mates decide to burn all the wood all at once and throw in the 10# fire extinguished into the flames ...

Just fucking do it. Don't go coming here asking for permission.

Grow some hair on them peaches and get it done.

Shit that we say here means Dick on the Playa anyway.

So, go ahead, burn your fires, light them Tiki torches. We don't give a fuck really. What are you going to do when your fire burns down half of Burning Man; Token on Eplaya told me it was OK? ROTFLMFAO!

benthegrate
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Post by benthegrate » Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:45 am

I actually have no intention of bringing tiki torches...I hate those things. I asked the question and titled this thread as such because there's NOT a straight answer available out there, definitively, about 2008.

Any newb reading the survival guide and the preparation section of the website will NOT find a ban on tiki torches and camp fires enclosed in some type of housing. It's only because I planned on bringing a chiminea (which I usually use firelogs and not wood inside) that I dug deeper and deeper in the forums and on the site, and found reference to previous bans.

This thread was only partially for my own inquiry. It's primarily so that people who search for "fire" and "tiki torch" will find a thread entitled "ULTIMATE STRAIGHT ANSWER ON CAMP FIRES" and be able to find the answer in the first couple of posts. There's not another post that makes this information so clear up front.

:-)

After almost a week of reading forum posts, I'm really surprised at how much flaming goes on here. I know there are tens of thousands of people who attend BM, I just hope the majority of them are friendlier than the ones who hang out on the forums! Sheesh!

Thanks to all of you who posted rationally, I really do appreciate it!

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Post by capjbadger » Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:02 am

benthegrate wrote:After almost a week of reading forum posts, I'm really surprised at how much flaming goes on here. I know there are tens of thousands of people who attend BM, I just hope the majority of them are friendlier than the ones who hang out on the forums! Sheesh!

Thanks to all of you who posted rationally, I really do appreciate it!
It's an event where half the city is burnt down at the end of the week and you're surprised that the related BBS has a bit of flaming on it?? Tsk tsk tsk... ;)

Badger
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Post by thirt33n » Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:25 am

I'm a hard core camper, I never leave a fire unattended, regardless of where I am. I'm going to be our camp manager/custodian. Don't plan on leaving camp very often this year.
shit. save the gas money. camp local.

..it did seem like you got your answer and kept asking the question in different ways. that gets annoying and the flames start.
blow.

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Post by benthegrate » Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:03 am

[quote="thirt33n"][quote]
..it did seem like you got your answer and kept asking the question in different ways. that gets annoying and the flames start.[/quote]

If you look at the post you'll notice I asked the question once, for the benefit of the forum under an appropriate title. Then only once did I ask another question..."Are chimineas considered contained?"

So if a single clarification causes people's tempers to flare...wow!

Again, folks, you guys are accustomed to attending BM and you know how it works. You're getting 10,000 virgins this year, and the vast majority of thos virgins will read the Survival Guide (hopefully) and read only regulations regarding burning artwork and fires within theme camps. The vast majority of those will assume they can bring firewood or tiki torches or charcoal grills, etc.

A few will get on the site and read the Preparation section, where, again, they won't find mention of a ban on tiki torches or contained fires in personal camps.

The first time I ran into any mention on a ban was on WIKIPEDIA, not here. That's what got me digging.

If the virgin decides to dig through the forums, he'll first read a thread about a guy mentioning how he didn't bring enough firewood last time, so he's bringing twice as much this year. Then he'll ready another thread about there being a ban on tiki torches. Then he'll see a photo of a camp in 2006 with tiki torches.

Forgive me for creating a thread with a clear and concise title about "ULTIMATE STRAIGHT ANSWER ON CAMP FIRES AND TIKI TORCHES," asking the answer up front for the benefit of everyone who uses the forums, and then asking a question (only remotely related to the title about camp fires and tiki torches) about whether a chiminea was considered an open flame.

I'm coming to BM at the request of friends who've attended before. I'm coming because I'm an experienced camp manager for outfitters and I can run their camp for them while they enjoy BM. I just want to be as in-line with official rules and regulations as possible. I didn't mean to test the patience of the forum by asking for a one single clarification.

Have a great week! :-)

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Post by thirt33n » Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:30 am

i think your post title is great.

it should clear up the fact that there are certain 'unsaid' bans.
no one want more 'rules'. there will be people with feathers out there. there will be people with tiki torches out there. most likely those are the people who won't be able to take the subtle hints given out here in this post or elsewhere.

here is the ultimate straight answer on campfires and tiki torches. (to the best of my ability)

NO. don't trouble yourself. you're never far away from a community burn barrel/camp fire. if you're prepared to deal with packing in all your wood and packing out 100% of your ash and you're sure the possibility of fire catastrophe is 0%,....then go ahead.(subtle hint with no restriction)

tiki torches. NO. don't trouble yourself. solar tiki torches provide 100% safe light.

don't bring feathers. (it's discouraged)(DON't BRING FEATHERS)(i know it's off subject,...just another example of how the word 'no' can be interpreted.)

if you've not attended BM then just trust those who have even if it seems they're wrong. if you want to bring tiki torches after your first experience then you know what you're in for?

save your energy for worry free enjoyment of the events.

this is not a 'normal' camping trip. you don't even have to roast marshmallows.


i like the idea of you 'search friendly' post.

good luck.

crux
:) :)
blow.

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Bob
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Post by Bob » Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:33 am

B, this bbs is *not* the official authoritative technical support website you seem to think. It's a user forum. Neither here nor in the Survival Guide or the main website are you going to be told how to stake your tent or wipe your ass, but I think an intelligent person may infer appropriately safe methods from org guidelines and user suggestions.

And to the question at hand -- I really don't think you're mature enough to bring a "chiminea". If you're this belligerent to your camp neighbors about it, I suspect they'll fill it up with compost.
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

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Post by AntiM » Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:20 am

It isn't compost if it is fresh.

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Post by ragabashpup » Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:55 am

There needs to be a warning when you sign up for this forum. BEWARE of the snarky burners. If you can't handle it run away quickly.

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Post by transgirl » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:20 pm

My answer to bringing a chiminea or barrell or metal fireplace would be YES!!!!! Absolutely do it!!! One of the biggest regrets I have of the last two years is I took the nanny culture advice around here and didn't have my own campfire. I also thought is was a ban.

Do you have an IQ over 60? If so, bring your fire pit and enjoy the cozy atmosphere it brings to your camp. Not to mention the needed heat in the sometimes frigid feeling (esp after 2am) desert temp.

Thank God it's not banned. As long as you watch it and are not a complete moron, it will be a huge asset to your camp. Think of the easy cooking.

A lot of hard core rule people flock to these forums because of their very nature. Even if it was banned, I bet you'd find plenty of camp fires.

As far as Tiki's, they seem like they'd be dangerous and a huge drag. I'd say, NO!

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Post by Bob » Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:50 pm

Tiki torches are a minimal hazard -- they were 'banned' because on a dark & stormy night back in '98 someone lit them for light & heat behind a windbreak of loose dry straw bales that caught fire when the wind blew one of the torches over into the straw. I was about 200 ft away at the time... wish I had a camera on me instead of a tool belt.
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Post by theCryptofishist » Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:54 pm

Bob wrote: I was about 200 ft away at the time... wish I had a camera on me instead of a tool belt.
Oh, the opportunities missed when you're an honest working man instead of a tourist.





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Post by Mosin » Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:25 am

(Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with this product/company!)

Our solution was a Fire Dancer propane fire pit. Here is a link that shows the size/setup, but we got ours on eBay for like $110 shipped. (the plain one withought e faux-rocks or other BS). It stows in the side compartment of the rv, which is cool. I gotta say, these things not only throw off heat, but they also are quite the late night eye candy, as something about the design creates little tornado-looking fire swirls.

One thing that is particularly cool about this thing for BM is that you can light it instantly to enjoy some light/heat/eyecandy, then shut it down and cover it in a second (actually like 10 seconds ;) if people decide to bail camp and go out.

The only drawback I can see so far is that it eats a lot of propane: 1 lb/hr., so we're bringing two extra tanks.

http://www.topratedadventures.com/Mfg/FireDancer.htm

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Post by gyre » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:18 am

You can do all sorts of tiki torches and fire with propane because you don't have the spillage tippy factor.
My favorite so far was the wheel of fire brought by virgins!!!
It looked like a medieval device powered by pedals.
They had wind blowing out the flames with their design, but that made it much, much cooler actually.

They brought that in 2006.
I'd like to see that again.

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Post by Badger » Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:32 am

Here's one I was not able to answer:

"I know automobiles (and generators??) are forbidden out in the walk-in camping area. What's the policy on having one's own personal burn barrel out there?"
Desert dogs drink deep.

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Post by capjbadger » Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:53 am

Badger wrote:Here's one I was not able to answer:

"I know automobiles (and generators??) are forbidden out in the walk-in camping area. What's the policy on having one's own personal burn barrel out there?"
Just a shot in the dark here, but the only rule that I'm aware of that applies to the walk-in camping area that does apply just about everywhere else is is the no cars rule.

Badger
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