Guns, Love Em or Leave Em

[gyre]

I'll tell ya, Gyre, what I appreciate about these long winded posts, by both of us:

hopefully, it gets info and opinions (which vary), out in the open and available to some who may not have as much experience, allowing a more informed decision.

Thanks for that.

I try to keep these things short, but sometimes that just leaves obvious questions.

You really should try some real world experiments.
It's just better to see for yourself.
We wanted to see a real world comparison for ourselves and we wanted to confirm that the high performance self defense ammo is worth the high cost.
(It is, at least to the point that your gun can handle it.)
I doubt there is a power advantage with the 7.62 ammo due to design, but the good stuff is ultra reliable.

There are plenty of gelatin tests out there, but I didn't think they would really address the question.
I know some coroners I could ask.
Coroners and trauma surgeons don't have anything positive to say about being shot.
As it happens, I took my qualification class with a trauma surgeon from the hospital that gets the worst cases here.

It's only anecdotal, but Corbon gets many calls from coroners about the Glaser fragmenting round.
Some there think it is the most dangerous round, on average.
It is thought to spread after penetration.


It occurs to me that although california seems to still ban many semi-automatic rifles for "assault weapon" nonsense, if you buy the legal pre May selectable weapons, you can still use them in california.
So, machine gun legal.
Single fire, not legal.

[youtube][/youtube]
[youtube][/youtube]
[youtube][/youtube]
The assault rifle version
[youtube][/youtube]

Hydrostatic Shock or possibly more correctly Fluid Dynamic Shock
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

[gyre]

It happens often enough from a distance, that my friend is building a longer barreled AK.

Gyre, it sounds like you're in the middle of a war of some kind. In that case I would probably dig up my non-existent assault rifles and a couple of my hardcore friends.

But in most cases, the truly dangerous beings are not going to stand up at 100 or even 50 yards, wave a gun and holler, "I'm gonna kill you!" Google up sucker punch if you like, but your experience in home invasion robberies should inform you on this. When the shit hits the fan, there's usually little warning, which is usually ignored by all but dogs and barbarians.

I didn't say it was smart.
These guys are so used to getting their way, they are truly shocked and outraged when someone fights back or even prosecutes.
I think I mentioned being threatened by a guy grabbing at his crotch.
He was wearing pajama bottoms, by the way.
I translated this as itchy crotch, but it translates in gangland as pulling a gun from your underwear (see, it already sounds smart).
It was a threat to shoot us, in public, in daylight, in front of witnesses, who, by the way, were backing away from him at this point.
I was carrying a 9mm.
My friend was carrying a 9mm and 380 and had at least one loaded AK a few feet away.


My friend lives in an industrial zone and drug dealers operate just on the corner.
So it is an active environment.

The only debate about crime here is whether we have the most violent crime overall or just in certain categories.

And I have a group of friends with a lot of assault weapons, but they are too valuable to use for self defense.
I don't know how the rules treat use of them for defense.
All that we are building are semiautomatic only.

And I agree that the more subtle approach from criminals would be more dangerous.
We get that sometimes.
Like with burglaries, we don't get the pros.
The pros are all out in the expensive suburbs stealing or hijacking whole warehouses.

I have mentioned my next door neighbors being shot publicly.
They succeeded in killing two and only left when someone showed up and shot back.
They were very persistent, chasing them through the house, shooting them after they were down on the street.

In my friend's neighborhood, someone had a house broken into three times and they put an alarm in.
They showed up and the guy was still there.
He immediately opened fire on them.
Anyone still expecting crooks to just flee these days is in for a shock.

The guy set on fire yesterday has died.
The carjackers are not in custody.

Does it sound like our criminals are smart?

We do have the pros too, and plenty of that.

Kind of depressing.

[gyre]

A bit of good news for anyone wanting to put together an AK cheaply.
Centerfire still has four complete parts kits with the chrome barrels.
These are becoming very rare.

[ygmir]

why do you think I've not done any testing?

I just don't care to banter about subjective results.

I have my opinions.........you have yours.........but, that's what they are.
and, anecdotal evidence.

also,
you might want to check your facts before spouting "facts and laws" regarding California, or other states, gun laws........IMHO, your off on a lot of what you say.

before you ask, I'm not interested in discussing that.

[gyre]

I thought you hadn't because you hadn't said so.

I would be surprised if there isn't a lot I don't know about california laws, especially since they keep changing.
My source for a lot of it is the atf.
You have to stay up to date with them to build any of these parts kits.
I can't make the rules make sense, but I do know what they say is the current law.
They think federal law overrides california law and that if you have a legal selectable weapon in their system, you can have it in california too.
I wouldn't be too shocked if california disagrees with that.

Last I checked, I could bring my legal AK to california, if it was owned legally in another state first.
There seems to be some question as to being able to use normal magazines, or even keeping them in the vicinity, in california.

I have remarked that many dealers have given up on staying up to date on the variety of local laws and changing state laws.
They have made customers responsible for knowing the law.

The last time I made a minor purchase, I had to go through the whole fbi clearance again.
Someone made a minor change in the law (or possibly just a clerical change, not that that matters to us) which requires checking virtually anyone going through the approval again.
No one I know, including the very large gun stores, were aware of it until then.

So yeah, I wouldn't be surprised to be wrong about those laws.
It would be nice to know when I am.
It's a constant effort to stay within the law anyway.

We use numerous sources including the atf and rangemaster, and anyone else we can think of.
We check directly with the atf about specific areas we are dealing with, so we know about any changes.
I don't want any surprises.

But we aren't in the industry, and I'm not sure anyone is fully aware of all the changes all the time, even when they are.


I wouldn't consider real world testing to be subjective, though it might not be definitive in a laboratory sense.
Interpretations certainly can be.
We didn't try to parse too finely.
We were looking for dramatic differences.

The testing we did, is what it is.
You can draw your own conclusions from it.
I found it useful.
The hot 9mm looked nearly as good as the standard 45, as ballistic specs suggest.
The hot 45, on the other hand, was on a different level entirely.
The 9mm was clearly outmatched by that one.

We used plastic milk jugs, filled fully with water, same distance, same place.
When we got to the 7.62, we were caught completely off guard.
The jug went up in the air two feet and totally disintegrated.
For a low power round, it transmitted more power than I would have guessed, specs notwithstanding.
But I'm not trying to make it more than it is.
It's just one more choice out there.

And if I wasn't clear, I agree with you about the choice of a shotgun.
I really like the 45, much more than the 9mm.
I'd get one now if they weren't so expensive.
I actually like shooting one quite a lot.
I need to try a few and see if it had anything to do with the particular one I tried.
I don't think so, but it was a particularly fine gun.
Powerful and easy to fire and a common size.
For it's size, hard to beat.

[gyre]

On a fun topic, we're starting on a bullpup AK.
Any ideas or design suggestions are welcome.
Keeping it to a particular appearance or authenticity is not a consideration.
The only limits on design are the legal constraints such as length.

The plan at this point is to use a 1 1/4" square aluminum tube for the frame, 1/8" thick 6061.
It will use a pistol trigger group in front of the magazine.
The current plan is to use another pistol grip as a fore grip.

I am looking for any interesting designs for the ventilation and lightening holes on the aluminum frame.
They need to be possible to cut, and of a shape as to prevent fingers accidentally going inside them.

Ygmir, you're an artist.
Any inspiration?

And anybody got a milling machine lying around?

[gyre]

No one has any suggestions for cutting openings in the tube?
Anybody?

1 1/4" by 24 inches long.
I'm open to ideas.


I had a chance to handle a VZ58 yesterday.
I am even more convinced that it is the best choice in a low power rifle out there.
It makes a standard AK look like a piece of shit.
Shorter and far better built and designed.

Also took a look at the SUB2000.
Very nicely done.
Did I mention that I learned that sub 9mms usually use very hot rounds, hot enough to destroy handguns?
I don't know how easy such ammo is to get.

Had a chance to handle the Steyr and FN bullpups too.
Amazingly short.
Nice, except for the price.

Got to play with the AK handgun too.
It's legal to carry those concealed here, with the permit.
Tad bulky though.

We had a chance to check out another romanian drum for the AK too.
Compared to the one from centerfire my friend got, the other one sucks big time.
So he lucked out there.
The variations in all the AK drums are huge.
His is romanian too, but very different.

[Ugly Dougly]

Did I mention that I learned that sub 9mms usually use very hot rounds, hot enough to destroy handguns?

By "hot" do you mean high velocity or something?
I assume that by "sub" you mean submachine guns?

[gyre]

Did I mention that I learned that sub 9mms usually use very hot rounds, hot enough to destroy handguns?

By "hot" do you mean high velocity or something?
I assume that by "sub" you mean submachine guns?

Yes, referring to smaller than rifle rounds.
Hotter than plus P+ rounds.
You'd have to ask keltec about the suitability of such rounds in the SUB2000.
It makes quite a difference in the longer barrels.

[cowboyangel]

Just picked up a box of Russian "Tula Cartridge Works" .40
Wolf is Russian too and it's shit. Wobbles too much not even hollow pt.
Why are the goddamn Russians offering cheap ammo here? $22.00 for box of 50. BTW, what's wrong with .40? Nice in between 9-.45

[ygmir]

Did I mention that I learned that sub 9mms usually use very hot rounds, hot enough to destroy handguns?

By "hot" do you mean high velocity or something?
I assume that by "sub" you mean submachine guns?

Yes, referring to smaller than rifle rounds.
Hotter than plus P+ rounds.
You'd have to ask keltec about the suitability of such rounds in the SUB2000.
It makes quite a difference in the longer barrels.

ok, you're killin' me here..........


what does: "smaller than rifle rounds" mean?

and, "hotter than plus P+"?

[ygmir]

Just picked up a box of Russian "Tula Cartridge Works" .40
Wolf is Russian too and it's shit. Wobbles too much not even hollow pt.
Why are the goddamn Russians offering cheap ammo here? $22.00 for box of 50. BTW, what's wrong with .40? Nice in between 9-.45

did someone say there was something wrong with .40?

The Russians are trying to make money, like the rest of the world. And, the U.S. is a black hole when it comes to ammo.......we'll buy anything and everything anyone sends.........and, if it's cheap, so much the faster to purchase.

I've had decent results with Russian ammo.........
I think, especially in handguns, what a lot of folks blame on "inaccurate ammo" is, well, really "their" own issue.......
and, as always, some guns like certain ammo better than others.

I re-loaded for years, and, noted how subtle differences can change accuracy quite a bit.

[gyre]

Quality varies depending on the factory.
My friend bought 500 rounds of 7.62x39 in an ammo box for $120 this weekend, lacquered.
Brown Bear, I think.
I think they started by bringing in the surplus ammo.

$12 for the 40 S & W on cheaper than dirt for wolf.
$14.50 for Sellier and Bellot.
RRarms is where I've found the best deals on smaller rounds.

[cowboyangel]

Just picked up a box of Russian "Tula Cartridge Works" .40
Wolf is Russian too and it's shit. Wobbles too much not even hollow pt.
Why are the goddamn Russians offering cheap ammo here? $22.00 for box of 50. BTW, what's wrong with .40? Nice in between 9-.45

did someone say there was something wrong with .40?

The Russians are trying to make money, like the rest of the world. And, the U.S. is a black hole when it comes to ammo.......we'll buy anything and everything anyone sends.........and, if it's cheap, so much the faster to purchase.

I've had decent results with Russian ammo.........
I think, especially in handguns, what a lot of folks blame on "inaccurate ammo" is, well, really "their" own issue.......
and, as always, some guns like certain ammo better than others.

I re-loaded for years, and, noted how subtle differences can change accuracy quite a bit.

Point taken ygmir, but I was being scientific in my analysis...shot wolf back to back with Independence. UMC and Remington. Rem's the best
Independence isn't too bad either. S&W Sigma-8lb trigger pull requires calmness and meditative trigger work.

[ygmir]

yeah, CA, good info, thanks.


I use an analogy, I can't remember where I saw it, but, it certainly fits me, relating especially to handguns:

"the safest thing to do, in a gunfight with me, is, stand still. there is very little chance the bullet will strike where I'm aiming..........but, if you run, I may well flinch and hit you"........

it has some merit, IMHO.

a moving target, adrenaline, fright, etc........well, accuracy, at that point, becomes quite relative.........again, IMHO.

I'm not saying it isn't important, just sayin, most ammo, will be more accurate than the human operating the weapon........and, it's just as likely that an inaccuracy in the bullet will offset the same from the shooter..........

[ygmir]

Quality varies depending on the factory.
My friend bought 500 rounds of 7.62x39 in an ammo box for $120 this weekend, lacquered.
Brown Bear, I think.
I think they started by bringing in the surplus ammo.

$12 for the 40 S & W on cheaper than dirt for wolf.
$14.50 for Sellier and Bellot.
RRarms is where I've found the best deals on smaller rounds.

boy, have things changed.......I remember getting 7.62x39 for 79.00/thousand. the 1400 round "sardine can" Chinese rounds were something like 100 or so bucks, in the wooden case.

Gyre:
shall I assume you are not going to clarify or address my earlier question, ?

[gyre]

By "hot" do you mean high velocity or something?
I assume that by "sub" you mean submachine guns?

Yes, referring to smaller than rifle rounds.
Hotter than plus P+ rounds.
You'd have to ask keltec about the suitability of such rounds in the SUB2000.
It makes quite a difference in the longer barrels.

ok, you're killin' me here..........


what does: "smaller than rifle rounds" mean?

and, "hotter than plus P+"?

http://www.greent.com/40Page/general/plusp.htm
Most of this seems accurate.

The term "+p" refers to ammunition which is loaded by the manufacturer to a pressure level above the normal SAAMI specification. But "+p" is still a recognized SAAMI specification (e.g., 9mm+p, .45ACP+p).

what does: "smaller than rifle rounds" mean?

It usually refers to handgun calibres made for short barrels.
Rifle rounds are designed for longer barrels.
The sub guns are in between.
As you know from loading, a rifle round will be mixed wrong for a short barrel and vice versa.

Due to the strange restrictions here, the barrel must be 16" on a rifle (having a stock).
Total length is regulated too.
Anything with a shorter barrel is restricted and for most people must be a pistol.
So certain guns exist here in odd forms.
Or not at all.

The AK pistol cannot have a stock or a front pistol grip.
The SUB2000 is a rifle and must have a stock.

Does this make sense?
No?
You've got it then.


Pistol in 223


Pistol in 7.62x39


Rifle in 9mm

[ygmir]

Yes, referring to smaller than rifle rounds.
Hotter than plus P+ rounds.
You'd have to ask keltec about the suitability of such rounds in the SUB2000.
It makes quite a difference in the longer barrels.

ok, you're killin' me here..........


what does: "smaller than rifle rounds" mean?

and, "hotter than plus P+"?

http://www.greent.com/40Page/general/plusp.htm
Most of this seems accurate.

The term "+p" refers to ammunition which is loaded by the manufacturer to a pressure level above the normal SAAMI specification. But "+p" is still a recognized SAAMI specification (e.g., 9mm+p, .45ACP+p).

what does: "smaller than rifle rounds" mean?

It usually refers to handgun calibres made for short barrels.
Rifle rounds are designed for longer barrels.
The sub guns are in between.
As you know from loading, a rifle round will be mixed wrong for a short barrel and vice versa.

Due to the strange restrictions here, the barrel must be 16" on a rifle (having a stock).
Total length is regulated too.
Anything with a shorter barrel is restricted and for most people must be a pistol.
So certain guns exist here in odd forms.
Or not at all.

The AK pistol cannot have a stock or a front pistol grip.
The SUB2000 is a rifle and must have a stock.

Does this make sense?
No?
You've got it then.


Pistol in 223


Pistol in 7.62x39


Rifle in 9mm

I think, I didn't understand your terminology:

"smaller" to me, means shorter, narrower, something like that.
If I understand, you use it to mean not loaded as "hot", or, with less power? Or, faster/slower powder as needed for varying barrel length?
I do understand how that works.......I was just confused when you said "smaller than rifle rounds".

and, I know +P, etc. designations.........so, are you saying, there is ammo, commercially available, "hotter" than +P+?

and, when you state:
"smaller than rifle rounds, hotter than +P+"........back to back, well, I don't get it.........

I can be dense at times, or often. It's just, sometimes, your verbiage screws me up..........

thanks.

[gyre]

Quality varies depending on the factory.
My friend bought 500 rounds of 7.62x39 in an ammo box for $120 this weekend, lacquered.
Brown Bear, I think.
I think they started by bringing in the surplus ammo.

$12 for the 40 S & W on cheaper than dirt for wolf.
$14.50 for Sellier and Bellot.
RRarms is where I've found the best deals on smaller rounds.

boy, have things changed.......I remember getting 7.62x39 for 79.00/thousand. the 1400 round "sardine can" Chinese rounds were something like 100 or so bucks, in the wooden case.

Gyre:
shall I assume you are not going to clarify or address my earlier question, ?

That one^?
The reply link didn't bring it up, so I didn't see it until later.

The really cheap stuff was often old and corrosive.
It's mostly gone now.
When it shows up now, it's usually newer and less corrosive or not at all.

Cheaperthandirt has some in 7.62x25, $130 for 1200.
7.62x54R $95 for 440 military.
8mm mauser $80 for 340.
Some of the military stuff is in demand for its differences.
All mild to full corrosive.

There are often better prices elsewhere.

http://www.centuryarms.com/
http://www.centerfiresystems.com/
http://www.centerfiresystems.com/ammuni ... liber.aspx
http://www.thegunsource.com/
http://www.rrarms.com/

[gyre]

I think, I didn't understand your terminology:

"smaller" to me, means shorter, narrower, something like that.
If I understand, you use it to mean not loaded as "hot", or, with less power? Or, faster/slower powder as needed for varying barrel length?
I do understand how that works.......I was just confused when you said "smaller than rifle rounds".

and, I know +P, etc. designations.........so, are you saying, there is ammo, commercially available, "hotter" than +P+?

and, when you state:
"smaller than rifle rounds, hotter than +P+"........back to back, well, I don't get it.........

I can be dense at times, or often. It's just, sometimes, your verbiage screws me up..........

thanks.

I could have said 'not' rifle rounds, but that confuses a lot of people too, and there are always exceptions.
I was referring to the definition of sub, as applied in this case.

The sub rounds used to be readily available, not as much now.
I'm not sure how hard they are to get now.
I don't know if +P+ is a specific power rating.
It isn't in saami.
But the 'sub' rounds powder, burns long enough to get full use out of the longer barrels.
These rounds were intended to crossover to pistols and seem to have always been too powerful for this use.
I have heard of Berettas losing the slide during firing, not really desirable.
I think the germans actually had guns blow up.
So there is precedent for tuning these handgun rounds for longer barrels.

My small 9mm is right on the edge of its limits with the P+.
It doesn't seem to be too hard to increase the power of the 9mm and 45.
Even if it is done with slower burning powders, best case using these high power rounds in a short barrel handgun would seem to be a dirty gun from leftover powder.
The flash must be stupefying at night too.
The 45 is a good choice for this, but the MAC in a 45 with no stock allowed is nuts.
There are some stories about those.

[gyre]

I found some military specs for the 9mm.
April 1994
May be out of date now.

RA77
Modified M3 Submachine gun
The use in M9 pistol is not authorized.
115 grains
38,500 psi avg mid case pressure
43,000 psi max
1125 + 90 fps 15 feet from muzzle

________________________________

M882 Ammo
Pistol, M9
1985
6 grains powder
Authorized for non-standard weapons
HK P7
Walther P38
FN P35

Submachine guns
HK MP5
HK MP5SD
IMI Uzi
Beretta M12
FFV M45
CZ M23
etc

32,000 psi case mouth pressure

[gyre]

An article on the submachine guns, selectable and semi-automatic.
They compare them to a shotgun in use.
Bear in mind that virtually all of the newer weapons are designed for use with a suppressor.
Silencing a shotgun is probably much more difficult.

Hirtenberger seems to be the choice subgun ammo.
It may just be running out.
http://www.centuryarms.biz/categories.asp?cat=57

I found mention of case sizing being an issue withe certain precise guns, especially with russian ammo.
Like the AK, many russian guns are designed with wide tolerances.

http://www.savvysurvivor.com/supplement ... inegun.htm


http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread. ... light=ammo

http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/wwwboard/messages/10048.html

from Uzitalk forums

"Browning High Powers can also but would never use it in a Glock or any other."

At my work in Finnish Def Forces all Hi-powers i´ve seen eating steady diet of subgun ammo - broke slides.
Also Walther p-88 didn´t last - frame broke.

Glocks - 26´s 19´s 17´s ALL ARE FINE.
15 years of shooting / firearms there

Walther broke at 10.000 rounds.
Think that Hi-powers broke the same round count. At lower count broke some "locking pins" in frame.

Just observations (and a Glock owner...

[Sail Man]

No one has any suggestions for cutting openings in the tube?
Anybody?

I assume your referring to vent holes on the barrel shroud portion? Are you soliciting ideas for a milling technique? Drilling? Water Jet Cutting? Or in the size of the openings? 1/4 to 3/8?

Also took a look at the SUB2000.
Very nicely done.

I have as well been interested in the Sub2000 but cannot find it available anywhere online. I was inquiring at the local gun shop yesterday about it. He was quite negative about it, saying that it was very "rough" That the weapon was milled very precisely, in fact stating that Kel Tec weapons as a whole were not very well built. I have zero exp. with Kel Tec so I couldnt offer up any direct observations or rebuttal but I have read good things about them online in various forums.

Put down a dep. on a Ruger Mini-14 Tactical. Layaway actually. Will need a pistol permit for it due to the folding stock. In all likelyhood wifey will also go with me to get her own pistol permit as well. Might as well make it a tandem purchase like the last time
I'd like to get a .22LR semi-auto in a smaller frame, something to target shoot with, but also something my little burner could ease into as he gets older. Any suggestions?

Also saw the cutest little .22 single shot. Might fit the little dudeman better then my 10/22 did.

[Ugly Dougly]

I didn't like my mini-14. It was too much trouble to field-strip.

[gyre]

No one has any suggestions for cutting openings in the tube?
Anybody?

I assume your referring to vent holes on the barrel shroud portion? Are you soliciting ideas for a milling technique? Drilling? Water Jet Cutting? Or in the size of the openings? 1/4 to 3/8?
I'm looking for ideas for the design to cut, and I'm open to techniques too.
This will be the frame of the gun as well as the barrel shroud, from the receiver forward.
I have free rein as long as the design functions and doesn't snag fingers.


Also took a look at the SUB2000.
Very nicely done.

I have as well been interested in the Sub2000 but cannot find it available anywhere online. I was inquiring at the local gun shop yesterday about it. He was quite negative about it, saying that it was very "rough" That the weapon was milled very precisely, in fact stating that Kel Tec weapons as a whole were not very well built. I have zero exp. with Kel Tec so I couldnt offer up any direct observations or rebuttal but I have read good things about them online in various forums.

Let me translate that= "We don't make enough profit on Kel-tecs/ we can't get them fast enough."

I could have arranged the purchase of the one I looked at.
Might still be able to track it down.

TGS has them backordered, short list, for $296.

The SUB2000 is a rifle.

I carry two keltecs, my friend carries two, even though he has many other guns to choose from.
The friend who I thought had the SUB2000, but has the folding 223, highly recommends it and it's a keltec.
He constantly gets offers on it and won't sell it.
He has a huge collection and owns a keltec.
How much recommendation do you need?
Every person I know that carries a small gun owns a P3AT, regardless of income.

Keltec puts the money where it counts.
You can dress them after you get them.
Functionally all I did was polish the internals.

[gyre]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =151586793
SUB2000 in 40 for $350
Be sure to check transfer and shipping costs.

I would still recommend the VZ58 if you can own it where you are.

[gyre]

Put down a dep. on a Ruger Mini-14 Tactical. Layaway actually. Will need a pistol permit for it due to the folding stock.

Are there special laws where you are?
Why a pistol permit for a rifle?

[gyre]

SUB2000 $280 40 cal beretta mag
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =151977567

9mm $380 to $400
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =152014760

There are others, mostly 40.

[gyre]

To clarify about the square tube I need to cut a design in, it is 1.25", an 1/8" thick and will go from the receiver to the end of the barrel.
It is structural and will be the frame for the trigger housing and the front grip.
It goes around the barrel.
It also houses the mechanism to operate the trigger group.
We do not use cables, unlike other AK bullpups.
The trigger will be directly in front of the magazine, as close as is possible.

Note that the pictured versions have very different grip placement and balance from our design.
Ours can be carried and aimed with one hand.
Due to the curve of the magazine, balance changes little as the magazine is emptied and with different size magazines.
Ours will not be used with drums.

Anybody have any ideas?

This is a receiver.



A common version.
You can see where the receiver ends and the rest of the parts begin.



Norinco bullpup


Valmet M82, a Finnish variant


Another usa version

[Ugly Dougly]

Valmets are great!