Survival

[gyre]

Gyre, posted the last after reading your first caution. And then, ran across your longer post.

I am of the opinion that any auxiliary heating device in a home, whether it be gas powered or wood powered can be inherently dangerous under certain circumstances. Most forms of combustion use oxygen to burn, hence depleting it is a possibility. Ignition is another possibility. It's always been my practice to crack a window whenever using an auxiliary heating device. Yes, that does cut down on effectiveness, but safety is also a concern.

You did spark my curiosity about a more effective O2 monitoring device, here is one that I found. Opinions? http://www.northernsafety.com/Products/ ... html?PFM=S

If you can point me towards a propane heater that is safer, please do so. I am not interested in something currently that would require me to cut a hole in my house at the present, but I have been considering adding a sm wood burning stove down the line.

The O2 sensor looks good, but I'm no expert there.

Can you confirm whether your unit has an oxygen sensor or not?
Mine only has a temperature sensor, like the others I've seen.

I have a small tank top catalytic heater.
Is yours catalytic as well?
Carbon monoxide isn't supposed to be an issue, but other vapors may be.
Depleting oxygen is bad enough, even under the ideal theory of these things.
The catalytic element eventually burned out in mine.
The replaced it cheerfully, but this was about the time of the recall.
They had replaced my variable valve with a two step valve and a temp probe which prevented me running the tank low or setting the heat as low as I often needed.
It allows gas flow only when it is hot enough.
It has worked fine, but is only efficient in a poorly sealed environment.
I think if your trailer leaks that much, I would spend the energy to seal it better.

There are vented RV heaters that are purely radiant and overhead, I think.
They do not use a fan.
I can't remember the brand, but it is one of the main companies.

I have found some home style propane/ngas heaters that act as radiant if not blocked.
They have a rectangular vertical box which hangs near the wall.
The flue is one of those short horizontal intake /outlet designed for people that don't want to cut holes.
I think that model requires a small fan for the exhaust.

I don't think the catalytics make sense without venting in enclosed spaces.
I do think you could enclose one safely with a glass front and make an intake and exhaust easily enough.


I think these are great where you have enough ventilation to start with, ie a lot.
And great for emergencies.

As for risk, the swiss approach to heater safety is amusing overkill, but may make sense.
They use a firebox that will contain any failure.

How is your electric availability?
If you have enough grid power, electric is far more efficient for radiant heat.
Check your actual gas costs.
Gas has to be far cheaper than it is most places to justify using it for heating.
They market the summer prices here but sell at winter prices.
I switched to electric heat years ago.
The Fostoria RPH is a good place to start for quartz lamp heaters.
Then there are quartz tube heaters.
And black body panels, less efficient but easier to set up and lasting forever in most cases.
Use spot heating in the right places and bank it from multiple angles and you will be shocked at how little heat you really need.

It is much easier and cheaper to install electric radiant heat than gas.
Take that into consideration too.
Conversion efficiency is 100% due to the lack of need for ventilation.
Quartz lamps can be 98% efficient in heat throw too.
Gas always has a larger convection loss from radiant.

[can't sit still]

Sorry, not my

Token, I see a Sego palm in the pic. You obviously don't live in Denver.
I posted on the "winter" thread with a link that argued that we're going into a huge food shortage. Dunno, myself. BUT, GOV already has measures on the books to control everything that you grow or raise. The link gave reasonable proof that soy will be very short. I suspect that GOV will force the meat producers to cut way back
We'll all drop by your place for salad.

There was one story on one of the pages about some "survival nut" that was well enough provisioned to get his family and 16 other families through the tough times from a hurricane.
http://www.survivalblog.com/selfsufficiency/home-power/
They did eventually run out of food though.

[ygmir]

Sail Man, I have used those heaters extensively.
Remember that they require venting, always.

There is a vented radiant version made for RVs.
I think it would be possible to construct a vented version.
Hard to do without a fan.


The kerosene heaters need the best K-1 grade.
They require venting also.

The Mr Heater I got, the 18,000btu Buddy heater: http://www.mrheater.com/product.aspx?catid=41&id=116 can be used indoors and has a oxygen depletion sensor. Nothing in the manual stipulates that it needs ventilation, though it's safe to say that my mobile home isnt exactly air tight I do have a battery powered CO monitor as well. The smaller units indicate they were for outdoors use only.

How has your experience been with them? I read alot of good things on a couple other forums and as I was already heavy into propane it made sense for me to stick with it.

well, my experience, is:

I've run a non vented, (non required according to the manufacturer), 30 Kbtu, propane heater, in a very well sealed, 500 sq.ft. room (basement) for days on end, all doors and windows closed (but, I'm sure there are still some drafts), just to test it. I installed a digital, high end CO detector about 15' away (suggested not right at an appliance).
the CO gauge never left "0". Said heater has an oxygen depletion sensor, and, it didn't shut off, either.
They do ask you to provide combustion air, IIRC, and, give a formula, for intake requirements. But, if you have drafts, you might be able to calculate them in.

As I understand, they run the combustion gasses back through the flame, effectively reacting CO and carbon, and, only release CO2 and water. I can testify to the water, the windows were steamy on cold days.
I now have two in my house. I've used them for several years, with, plenty of CO detectors, different brands even, scattered about.
No readings.

I'm not sure where Gyre gets his info, and, in a super safety sense, he is just being cautious.........but, this has been my experience.
They are rated by different safety agencies, and, are approved everywhere (except here in CA, of course), for home heating.
I'd say, as long as your place is drafty, and, your heater is in good working order, it would be fine.
But, that is just my opinion..........
another good practice, is, don't run them when you're sleeping, if, you have concerns...........

*edit 'cause I forgot something*

[gyre]

I'm unfamiliar with that particular type of non-vented device.
All I have seen are variants of the catalytics.
But it is still consuming oxygen.
I would at least recommend an air to air heat exchanger.
We are all sensitive to oxygen depletion, even in the safe range.
Just take an air flight.
I would output the exchanger where people are.

I had the most problems with the gasses when temperatures were moderate.
Colder temperatures accelerated air flow through drafts enough that I rarely had detectable issues in the house.
In the van, I never could balance the ventilation to get useful heat and stay safe.

[Sail Man]

Gyre, posted the last after reading your first caution. And then, ran across your longer post.

I am of the opinion that any auxiliary heating device in a home, whether it be gas powered or wood powered can be inherently dangerous under certain circumstances. Most forms of combustion use oxygen to burn, hence depleting it is a possibility. Ignition is another possibility. It's always been my practice to crack a window whenever using an auxiliary heating device. Yes, that does cut down on effectiveness, but safety is also a concern.

You did spark my curiosity about a more effective O2 monitoring device, here is one that I found. Opinions? http://www.northernsafety.com/Products/ ... html?PFM=S

If you can point me towards a propane heater that is safer, please do so. I am not interested in something currently that would require me to cut a hole in my house at the present, but I have been considering adding a sm wood burning stove down the line.

The O2 sensor looks good, but I'm no expert there.

Can you confirm whether your unit has an oxygen sensor or not?
Mine only has a temperature sensor, like the others I've seen.

I have a small tank top catalytic heater.
Is yours catalytic as well?
Carbon monoxide isn't supposed to be an issue, but other vapors may be.
Depleting oxygen is bad enough, even under the ideal theory of these things.
The catalytic element eventually burned out in mine.
The replaced it cheerfully, but this was about the time of the recall.
They had replaced my variable valve with a two step valve and a temp probe which prevented me running the tank low or setting the heat as low as I often needed.
It allows gas flow only when it is hot enough.
It has worked fine, but is only efficient in a poorly sealed environment.
I think if your trailer leaks that much, I would spend the energy to seal it better.

There are vented RV heaters that are purely radiant and overhead, I think.
They do not use a fan.
I can't remember the brand, but it is one of the main companies.

I have found some home style propane/ngas heaters that act as radiant if not blocked.
They have a rectangular vertical box which hangs near the wall.
The flue is one of those short horizontal intake /outlet designed for people that don't want to cut holes.
I think that model requires a small fan for the exhaust.

I don't think the catalytics make sense without venting in enclosed spaces.
I do think you could enclose one safely with a glass front and make an intake and exhaust easily enough.


I think these are great where you have enough ventilation to start with, ie a lot.
And great for emergencies.

As for risk, the swiss approach to heater safety is amusing overkill, but may make sense.
They use a firebox that will contain any failure.

How is your electric availability?
If you have enough grid power, electric is far more efficient for radiant heat.
Check your actual gas costs.
Gas has to be far cheaper than it is most places to justify using it for heating.
They market the summer prices here but sell at winter prices.
I switched to electric heat years ago.
The Fostoria RPH is a good place to start for quartz lamp heaters.
Then there are quartz tube heaters.
And black body panels, less efficient but easier to set up and lasting forever in most cases.
Use spot heating in the right places and bank it from multiple angles and you will be shocked at how little heat you really need.

It is much easier and cheaper to install electric radiant heat than gas.
Take that into consideration too.
Conversion efficiency is 100% due to the lack of need for ventilation.
Quartz lamps can be 98% efficient in heat throw too.
Gas always has a larger convection loss from radiant.

This heater has dual plenum's that heat a tile in front for radiant heating. I'm not sure what you mean by catalytic heating. I do have another heater that mounts atop propane tanks and can also be used for cooking. It's element looks like this
The heater I bought is advertised as being usable indoors with appropriate ventilation. It has a fan capable of running off of ac or 4 D batteries. I understood that before I bought it and I intend to make allowances for it while using it. I purchased it for an emergency source of heat in the event of a power failure, hence my reasons for not buying an electric heater.

Any gas appliance whether it be a heater, hot water heater, stove, dryer etc can produce CO due to incomplete combustion. When observing the flame from one of these appliances, blue indicated complete combustion, yellow indicates incomplete combustion and would be complicit in creating CO. CO is my biggest concern, O2 deprivation is second.

Right now it is 20 degrees outside. If I loose power soon the inside will be as well. I need an off the grid way to at least make the inside tolerable. Options for me include propane and wood. Please suggest another option if I missed one. I do not wish to heat by open oven door. To many fires in the D are started that way. Candles and Lanterns can be used to supplement although candles to me arent an option. I have 11 years as a vol. firefighter and know firsthand how fast mobile homes go up in flames. We call them foofers. Foof!! Do to there design fire rolls rapidly down the length of the ceiling and oft times before arriving on scene the trailer is fully involved.

I am seriously considering a wood burning stove next winter. But, I will also look into natural gas options as that is what we use for our gas appliances and is easy to tie into the existing piping. Now, a question maybe somebody could answer for me is, if the grid goes down, will the natural gas still flow from the source? We have a number of large underground storage caverns here in my area courtesy of my local gas provider so travel distance is short. Wood or gas, will be vented via a chimney. I prefer the wood, but I also feel the gas is inherently safer.

[ygmir]

these are the ones I use.


I think the pic you posted is not a "re-burner", so, probably does make CO......not sure though.
I know, that, the ones I've used, have yet to even make the CO detector move.

hang on the wall easily, or, can be free standing.

natural gas is, ultimately, pumped. So, I'd imagine, a long term grid failure would stop the flow.
Propane makes it's own pressure in the tank.

Wood stoves are good, it's what I use primarily.

[can't sit still]

Sailman, in a real emergency, you would want to make heat any way that you could. Here is a Youtube vid about a possibility;

There is a design by Creative Science Research that uses this principle. They have two designs. One design is like a Tesla Turbine with a stack of discs inside a large can. The other is two concentric "paint cans". The device is filled with 10w30 motor oil and spun. Reportedly , it creates a lot of heat. The oil is contained in the 1/8th inch space between the 2 cans.

It would have to be spun by a bicycle setup. There are already lots of setups for powering a pump or generator from pedal power. I have the plans. The 2-can plan has to be run with a vertical axis. The disc setup can be run with a horizontal axis.
It's better than lighting the cat on fire.

[can't sit still]

We really seem to be over run with alarmist predictions. I'll put them here because, at some point, speed will be of the essence.
``Events move much faster than anyone expects,'' he says, ``and the barbarians are on top of you before you can escape.''
"Insure yourself against war and disaster by buying a remote farm or ranch and stocking it with ``seed, fertilizer, canned food, wine, medicine, clothes, etc.''"
"Barton Biggs, MORGAN STANLEY'S FORMER CHIEF GLOBAL STRATEGIST is telling you there is going to be an economic collapse."
http://www.nationalexpositor.com/News/997.html
So, he's the chief global strategist,,, what does that prove?

http://www.nationalexpositor.com/News/2226.html
"The article encourages people to prepare by stockpiling necessities because a 2nd American Revolution is imminent. " Do you think that they mean it?


"The Royal Bank of Scotland has advised clients to brace for a full-fledged crash in global stock and credit markets over the next three months as inflation paralyses the major central banks". Hmmm, they're calling for a crash by september. Maybe it's just an "april fools day" joke.

Societe Generale is getting on the bandwagon too;
"Société Générale has advised clients to be ready for a possible “global economic collapse"

http://www.nationalexpositor.com/News/1941.html
Buncha copycats !!

The problem seems to be a lack of money. The US just doesn't have any.
http://www.nationalexpositor.com/News/2172.html
"So looking only at short-term debt, we know the Treasury will have to finance at least $2 trillion worth of maturing debt in the next 12 months."
WE have a wee little problem. China dumped $ 34.2 billion in US paper last month.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35420411/ns ... d_economy/
Also, treasury auctions are faltering. The FED is covertly buying lots a bonds. Without FED participation, the auctions would fail.

Even one of the FED governors is calling the whole mess unsustainable,,, against the counsels of Bernanke;
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot. ... ed-on.html

Duncan, who predicted ALL of this in a book in 2003, says that we're "not viable"
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2010/02 ... re-duncan/
Do y'all think that it IS TIME to get serious? I can put up more links and predictions. If this isn't clear enough, perhaps you are a candidate for an award.
The Darwin award.
Dan

[can't sit still]

oh yeah, here's a bunch of useful links. i don't have time to sort and label them;

https://www.usaemergencysupply.com/sitemap.htm

http://scienceshareware.com/buy-now-ped ... system.htm



http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/ ... 793+768843

http://www.greenbatteries.com/

http://www.imaging-resource.com/ACCS/BATTS/BATTS.HTM

http://www.21st-century-goods.com/page/ ... OD/GRFR300

http://www.brumbypumps.com/

http://www.utterpower.com/

http://www.generlink.com/about_generlink.cfm

but for really long term storage 5-10 years the single use Lithium type batteries are the best (and are available in AAA, AA, C, D and 9 volt sizes).

1) PAL lights: Have several and always been pleased with them. [See: http://www.buckshotscamp.com/Flashlight ... -Sales.htm]
I found a great rechargeable 9 volt NiMH high capacity battery. Wow, they really do have JUICE! Once fully charged several times, they outlive any non-rechargeable battery I've found and they work well with solar charging.
One 9V NiMH 250mAh Rectangular NiMH Rechargeable Battery ---Ultrahigh capacity
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?P ... rodID=1995

http://www.wildblue.com/

http://www.propane-generators.com/

[can't sit still]

Well, it seems that many people have noticed that Pax Americana is coming to a close. Their universal recommendation is to buy farmland and guns,,, away from the city;

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e24949.htm

http://www.businessinsider.com/barton-b ... ers-2010-1
History is excruciatingly clear on what we can expect.

[can't sit still]

Survival, in a general sense, refers to the country as a whole. The U.S. economy was built, to a large part, on borrowed money. The money flow is ending. Employment is collapsing. Why is employment collapsing? What should you do about it to survive?
There is much debate about why the job picture is so bleak.
I found an excellent article talking about just that.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/featur ... tml#Byline
They lay the blame on "consolidation". It's a very good article . It points out that mega-corporations destroy small operators. There is always a net loss in jobs. That's what efficiency is all about. It's just one more story about the blind march of the capitalist-efficiency-destruction machine.

The article, sadly, goes a long way towards proving that the job situation will NEVER improve.
California is at 21% unemployment NOT counting all the people who worked for cash and have now lost their jobs. [40% of the total employed] The local and state GOV will soon have to lay off many thousands more.
The corporations and banks see this efficiency increase as a monetary gain. It will eventually dawn on them that they have systematically destroyed the aggregate purchasing power of their customers.
In order to survive, you should working in some enterprise that caters to people's NEEDS ,,,, not their wants.
Dan

[can't sit still]

Well, the news isn't improving.
The head of the IMF warned that, “violent protests could break out in countries worldwide if the financial system was not restructured to benefit everyone rather than a small elite.â€

[gyre]

I was reading about the demise of Angkor Wat and the end of the Mayan empire.
To boil it down, when people don't have food, culture collapses.

[can't sit still]

gyre, America now has 39 million receiving food stamps. It's not a particularly expensive program so, I wouldn't expect it to stop. The 2 key points are energy and seeds. We're converting carbon energy into food energy. Any interruptions to the energy distribution will cause interruptions to food distribution and production.
Just recently, three varieties of genetically modified corn failed in India. There have been several other failures. It seems that mother nature is not happy having genes spliced willy nilly. The GM variants seem to work for a while and then breakdown. Cotton is a very good example. GM cotton is crashing badly.

We can see the writing on the wall as far as pensions go. Welfare will be cut to nothing. AFDC will be cut way back. There will be millions who get food stamps but little else. When they can't come up with money for rent, they will be on the street.
I knew a guy who held up banks so that he could get a room and 3 square meals.
I could picture a scenario where local GOV had no money for prisons. People would commit a crime to get in jail. . They would get booted out after 3 days. You can already see it happening where local GOV won't prosecute for minor crimes.
Think how fast things would break down if there was no punishment for crime. Sad times

[Rabbi Dali Rick]

Most of the stuff you go to the court for now especially automotive have been switched over to being infractions.


the rebbi

[can't sit still]

I hear that fines are really starting to rise. No way do they want to pay to have you visit. I have a friend who has to appear. He's going to plead poverty and do the time. He figures that they'll recycle him out in a day or two.
There really isn't much that GOV can do to a homeless person that doesn't cost GOV. You break the law and they punish you by giving you board and lodging. They're starting to pull their heads out of their asses and come up with alternatives;
http://cchealth.org/groups/homeless/homeless_court.php
One of these days, they'll open Club Haliburton and we can go there for an extended vacation.

[can't sit still]

The biggest factor in survival is often "foreknowledge" What ARE we looking at? History is our best guide.
It seems like a good bet that the banks caused the crash by blowing a huge bubble and then yanking out the props. They wanted to kill the competition and buy up real assets on the cheap. OK so what are the banks going to do next. I would guess that they want a LOT more banks to fail. I would also expect them to drive the price of productive assets MUCH lower.
The banks control GOV without assuming it's liabilities. When California issued IOUs, most banks wouldn't cash them. Banks typically try to crash GOV to grab productive infrastructure. So, big banks [the FED] said that they wouldn't print new money for GOV. Just as they pumped up the private sector and then yanked out the rug, they are saying that they are going to do the same thing to the public sector. They pumped up treasury and now they are going to cut it off.
Then what?
Historically, GOV will continue to function but, they won't pay workers. It happened this way in Great Depression I. It happened in many other countries.
Presumably, GOV will blame the rich investors for not buying bonds. They're already going after the "rich" to squeeze them even more;
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/63761
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... wJfv5zAGZo
Squeezing the rich to pay people on the Dole is not a viable strategy.

As GOV runs out of money, they won't be able to pay employees. The banks will NOT honor GOV checks when they know that GOV is insolvent. They proved it in California.

GOV wants to raise all the taxes and institute now taxes; VAT, carbon, health, new SS, etc. These taxes won't really kick in for about 3 years. Interest rates are starting to rise. GOV does not have 3 years. IF the FED stops printing, GOV only has a few months. If the FED buys bonds secretly, GOV still has only til about the third quarter of 2011. The debt service will be so high that GOV won't have any money for anything else.
So, do the banks cut off new printing now and crash sooner or do they wait for GOV to go insolvent at the end of 2011? A lot of investors are dumping municipal bonds and buying treasuries. If the FED can unload GOV paper to private and institutional investors, they will probably postpone the crash for as long as possible. They need time to unload their toxic paper to GOV and investors.

The flight from Munis will probably crash the states sooner. The "sand states" are shutting down arms of GOV pretty fast. Some are close to not finding money to pay employees. If the FED does not buy bonds, most of GOV could shut down in 6?? months.

[FIGJAM]

If the banks and the rich have all the money, will any kind of survival instinced kick in? What will be the point of having all that money if they ruin the value of it? Or will they get creative and save the systems that helped them generate thier whealth? Are they too blind to see that thier wealth will be worthless? Cant sit still........please enlighten me.

[can't sit still]

FUCK, you're good !!!!!!!!!!!!
Capitalism demands efficiency. In it's quest for efficiency, it destroys the aggregate purchasing power of it's pool of potential consumers. It does NOT see this.
Banks accumulate wealth TOKENS. These tokens only have value if people have enough wealth and productivity to redeem [repay] them. By bleeding the system dry, the banks deprive the people of their ability to redeem tokens.
The banks do not see this.
The banks are almost 100 % parasitic.
The wealthy, to a great degree, have produced more than they have consumed. They hold their "deferred consumption" as tokens.
Where the banks are generally just looking for fresh blood, the wealthy are generally looking for new wealth-producing opportunities. I have to generalize.
It's not fair to compare Bill Gates to Jamie Dimon.
The wealthy are generally looking to generate more wealth. The bankers are generally only looking for the next big killing.
The bankers generally don't have the mindset of productivity. The wealthy are generally more concerned about it.
The bankers seem to look at the longterm monetary benefits.... with blinders. They see consolidation of the banking industry and owner ship of productive industry but, they don't see the general crash of the economy.
Sure, they made money from the '29 crash. They would have made even more if the healthy economy had continued uninterrupted. They didn't see that OR, they didn't care.



Also, the bankers always get carried away with speculation. They are their own worst enemy. NO balance sheet is healthy with the leverage above. So, while the bankers should be concerned with the value of the tokens that they hold, GREED seems to make them lose their common sense.
It's the same thing with the derivatives. How could any banker expect to get paid off on default of loans that they KNEW were bad? They wrote "insurance policies" for these loans that amounted to $ 1.4 quadrillion.
A third grader could have told them that the liar-loans were bad. A second grader could have told them that they were NOT going to collect $ 1.4 quadrillion. In short, greed blinded them.
So, while the rich were interested in getting a return on money that they had earned, the bankers were interested in getting sky-high returns on the profits of speculation. Again, a generalization.
There is something like $ 10 quadrillion in tokens floating around. There is NO possibility of world consumers producing enough wealth so that GOV and banks can suck out $ 10 quadrillion to vitiate these debt tokens.

Efficiency and automation and consolidation is consistently pushing down the number of employed people. GOV responds by employing more and more people. Capitalism has the world creeping towards a "global mean wage" Wages are dropping at about 1 % a year. The value of aggregate global wages is dropping fast. They replace a $ 150 a day American with a $ 3 a day Chinaman.
GOV has a shrinking wage pool to suck blood from,,, to pay it's employees. So, GOV is going after the savings of those who produced more than they consumed.
The U.S. priced itself out of the global wage market. We're spending down our savings. GOV is penalizing the most productive. Capitalism is nothing without capital. so, no problem, take everyone's capital [savings]

With the BIG reduction in the number of people needed for the economy, there are no jobs for the young. The Greeks are rioting. Their Unemployment for the young is 60 %. With pensions crashing, the older workers are not retiring. The young have very few openings. GOV has NO cure for efficiency.

The U.S. had too high a standard of living compared to the rest of the world. GOV extended this by massive borrowing. We're overdue for massive repaying. Greenspan blew huge bubbles to lure in foreign investors and extend the non-competitive wage standards. Since we're slipping towards a global mean wage, we'll also slip towards a global house price. The price of a house is always dependent on the wages in the same area.

The worst problem of all is efficiency. You've seen the miserable results of GOV trying to create jobs. What does that tell you. Most manufacturing is of a nature that it can only be done by machines. New designs and processes are new niches for machine-assemblers.
GOV can NOT create productive jobs.... only parasitic jobs. Utilization of the productive sector shrinks. The wage base shrinks. Funding shrinks.
California has borrowed $ 8.4 billion for unemployment payments. How long can that go on?
We spent tokens that we HOPED to earn in the future. The banks in their greed and blindness committed these tokens that they expected to receive in the future.
There are so many fewer dollar tokens circulating that the dollar tokens just may NOT lose their value. The bond tokens though can only be redeemed with dollar tokens[our labor]. Since GOV subsists on bond tokens, they may very well find that they can't get any dollar tokens to keep them going. 50 % of the people in this country depend, directly or indirectly on dollar tokens from GOV.
GOV could be ,typically, expected to steal everything in sight if it runs out of dollar tokens.

P.S. I should have said that the number of employed in the WEST was dropping. The East is moving people from an agrarian setting to a productive setting. The West is more developed and more automated. . The West is constantly losing market share by being non-competitive. Most of the reason that we're non-competitive is because of the interest burden and GOV, NOT because of wages. The burden of non-producers is dragging down solvency of the West.

[FIGJAM]

When i was 15 (56 now) and i learned about inflation, my thought was to spend my money as quick as i got it before it was worth less. It seemed like a teen like idea. Maybe i was right all along. What is your bottom line opinion on what is going to happen and in what time frame?

[can't sit still]

I do have a real crystal ball that I bought at the Pow Wow / Main Event in Quartzite. I can't seem to find the ON switch. The general consensus through ALL of officialdom and much of prognosticators [who have a good track record] is; general worldwide poverty and revolution. The BIS which is the central banker to central banks said that a more equitable solution to wealth distribution HAS to be found. When the the world central bank is talking Marxist ideas, you KNOW that things are looking bad.

The Japanese have invented a beautiful robotic hand;
http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/22/vide ... ity-speed/
Computers have taken over most processes. Man is defined by his brain and his hands. Robot technology is rapidly advancing.
TAKE IT TO IT'S LOGICAL CONCLUSION.
At this point in the "machine age", the banks are sucking out much of the wealth. GOV sucks out whatever it can. GOV creates make-work jobs.
Each day that passes finds more and more people who are not qualified to participate in the productive economy. 1 % of American adults are in the prison system. Go to the ghetto or the Indian reservation to see what the effect is on people who have no niche in the productive economy,,, generally alcoholism.

Our productive [and destructive] capacity goes way up. Our purchasing power is going down. MANY are left out of the productive economy. The banks are FAR from offering to support those who don't produce for the corporatocracy.
Celente says revolution in 2--3 years. GOV seems to figure 3 years. I don't think that the safety net will last for 2 more years. If GOV runs out of tokens, it could throw 100 million into poverty.
My bottom-line opinion is that GOV can't keep solvent more than 2 years at the outside.

IF the FED cuts off money printing, GOV could be insolvent by summer. It also depends on how much they want to hit the CAFR accounts.
Many of the states will fall apart by the end of 2010. LOTS of variables, both obvious and hidden.
Dan

[FIGJAM]

Ive lived my life out of the normal sociatal box for most of my life. I consider myself flexable and adaptable. So i aint sceerd. How are you preparing yourself for what seems to be the enevitable?

[ygmir]

[FIGJAM]

I like mike reynolds earthships. Completely self contained of the grid houses made of all recycled materials.

[can't sit still]

FIGJAM, my original plan was to just run away. I was going to hide out in Chile. I'm fluent in Spanish and have driven to South America previously. I bought precious metals to keep me solvent. But, I have never had a problem taking care of myself. I always end up looking out for others. It's not my nature to run out.
Friends had 10 kids and no interest in them. I took them everywhere. I couldn't stand the thought of them growing up in front of the TV with the supervision of a Salvadorian housekeeper. As soon as they were out of diapers we went to all corners of Ca and parts of Az and Mexico. I'm not going to desert them now. They're great kids. I spent the most time with the 4 girls.



They're really down to earth but, don't have much experience. One of them, Brittany, recently introduced me as her mentor. What can I say?

So, I went and bought 10 acres of farmland on a river in a place with a perfect climate. It's away from the city, not too far from the ocean and protected from violent weather.



I'm also godfather to my brother's little girl. Can't forget her. I have several tons of supplies in my log house in Bend, Oregon. I need to transfer them to the new place.
The place in Bend is solid but the growing season is too short.


OK, THAT is my general plan.

[FIGJAM]

If you havent built on the new property yet, I highly recomend a documentary called garbage warrior. Or check out earthships. completely self contianed, grow food inside and outside. No heating or cooling required as the design maintains an engineered ambeint temp. Theres just to much good stuff there to talk about and im a slow typer.....lol.......so do yourself a favor and check it out. I would be interested in your oppinion.

[can't sit still]

FIGJAM, in the pic with all the trees, you can see a white splotch. It's a 2 story house.
The Bank of international Settlements says that sovereign debt IS going to collapse. They know what every GOV has on it's books. The time looks to be fairly short. I just don't have the time to build a new house. The area that I picked has very mild weather so I'm not worried about temperature extremes.
I've looked at earthships and haybales and underground and other schemes. They have their merits, for sure. When I built the log house that is pictured, I used standing-dead trees that were killed by the Pine Bark Beetle.
I'm concentrating more on agriculture and aquaculture than on buildings. I expect that I'll be feeding quite a few. Have you read "Seeds of Destruction" ?

The new ideas expounded in the new theory 'The Electric Universe" are fascinating. The universe is controlled by electricity rather than gravity. They have quite a bit of support for their theories. It is postulated that the earth's rotation is similar to a homopolar motor that is energized by the magnetic fields of the sun. The latest spacecraft like Planck and ???? are sending back fabulous data.
Jennifer Lawson has done some great research. She has a PHD and was published in Nexus magazine. She says that the sun is going to cause a lot of violent weather here that will really kick in after 2010. Sunspot cycle 44 is looking to be quite violent.

She is predicting LOTS of earthquakes. Whatever you build, I would keep this in mind.

[ygmir]

interesting info, CSS.
I might add:
Wood frame construction withstands earthquakes better than masonry. unless said masonry is super re-enforced.....and, even then, it cracks.....
Fuel will be very scarce......if a person can put aside fuel (I prefer propane), for long term storage, you'll be able to get by better........Solar power options, too, for if the grid goes down.......or, if you're just to broke to afford a power bill.........

[FIGJAM]

The steel belted tires rammed with earth for walls appealed to me because of the stopping power vs small arms fire. It seems it could withstand a 50cal, but i could be wrong. After 3 days of below freezing temps and overcast skies, the inside temp was still 65 degrees. Stay comfy while murauders freeze or starve.

[FIGJAM]

They even had a banana tree growing in the house in taos nm.