What constitutes "low income"? (talk amongst yourselves)

[glitteranddust]

If my response seemed defensive, it because it was. If "they" really are reading these boards and people are trying to say that 13,000 a year is absolutely NOT low income frankly upsets me. It's a low income ticket not just a no income one, and I really hope the person who asked that question above still applies. (My explanation to the oragnization will be different, promise)

One of the things that breaks my heart--or at least bends it hard--about the low-income discussions is seeing how much people hate the poor. If you're poor you should never have any fun, or vacation, or any break in the utter misery of your daily routine of eating your cold can of spam and applying for 83 minimum wage jobs.
It gets pretty mean spirited...

*Nods* That's what I was thinking.

Yes, it's a vacation and no one absolutely literally needs to leave home for one. Still, it's nice to be able to have one once every once in a long while, and it's a sweet extra bonus to have it in a setting that's not your own home... where if you are low income it's reasonably likely you take most of your time off in/near.

In my experience, the ticket price is pretty much the only hard cash you absolutely need in hand. I guess it just sort of makes me a little sad that there's this strong notion floating around that other low income people who also don't have cash in hand right at the moment and would like to ask for assistance to bring the trip into something they can responsibly afford flat out shouldn't go... or they're irresponsible and/or should be able to strain their wallets even more to eek out a full price ticket. (I'm low income and nobody tells me I'm irresponsible for going... nope, just the folks who apply for a low income ticket. It makes me upset each time I hear it especially when it's directed at people who volunteer for more stuff than I could ever dream of.) If anyone can even really begin to argue that they "need" a vacation I think it's the folks working a whole bunch of hours at several crappy minimum (or below minimum wage) jobs just to scrape by.

It get's tiring hearing the whole spiel that it's rewarding irresponsibility. Low income folks are often good at making stuff work out financially without being too irresponsible because that's what we're stuck doing the other 51 weeks of the year.

[Hickup]

Honestly I don't get why there is a low income program at all. Especially this year with the 10,000 tickets that were going to the main sale being allotted for theme camps. Just make them the $390 price, and require a one page essay as to why you want to goto the burn, and how you plan to participate. Heck, make low income do a shift at the gate before being admitted (mad at myself for not doing in 2011), and of course still have their name on the ticket. Lets face it, Burning Man isn't cheap unless you are one of the "Playa Provides" or "Sparkle Pony" types that just will their way through the burn. The whole program just seems redundant to me. Especially since those I've run into who admit to getting in through low income usually tell me they don't really have financial issues, but have gotten in through that program every year they have come.

[theCryptofishist]

If anyone can even really begin to argue that they "need" a vacation I think it's the folks working a whole bunch of hours at several crappy minimum (or below minimum wage) jobs just to scrape by.

Yes.

[CornMan]

I believe the Low Income Program plays a small part in Burning Man not becoming just another pseudo weekend hippie festival. That's one thing I liked about the free concerts in Golden Gate Park, they just felt more real. The people in dirty tie dye were the real ones. The rest of us were pretending. So let's keep it real and not be hating on them so much.

[lemur]

If anyone can even really begin to argue that they "need" a vacation I think it's the folks working a whole bunch of hours at several crappy minimum (or below minimum wage) jobs just to scrape by.

Yes.

I would add a "HELL YES!!"

[tamarakay]

If anyone can even really begin to argue that they "need" a vacation I think it's the folks working a whole bunch of hours at several crappy minimum (or below minimum wage) jobs just to scrape by.

Yes.

I would add a "HELL YES!!"

Agreed.

[tattoogoddess]

Agree! I work one part time job and make $5.35. Im there maybe 15 hours a week. The other job I am there 30 hour per week. I am LUCKY if I break to $3.00 a hour. Thats a really good week. The loop hole is she makes under 300k a year so she is not required to pay min wage state or federal. So I am on 50% commission. 2 hair cuts a day on avrg. I am making $20 a day from being there 11am to 7pm. Yeah awesome sauce huh? Pulling sometimes 16 hours and still only bringing in about $700 per month from 2 jobs combined. Lord knows if you do do this you need a damn vacation after a year!

[graidawg]

i'vew always worked at or near minumum wage - thats for 25 years and ive had 2 vacations ever. the second was last year, most of you were there.

[tattoogoddess]

you live in London it seems like a vacation all the time Hop skip and a just over to the train in Europe. I want to live there too.

[graidawg]

you live in London it seems like a vacation all the time Hop skip and a just over to the train in Europe. I want to live there too.

you may be right you know after it takes longer for me to get to the train station to europe than it does to get to europe

[laffingblonde]

Thanks for the discussion everyone. As for my situation I have a daughter, school debt and all. Last year I hitched from New York to the burn and managed to make the trip for around $700-$800 after camp dues because I needed someone to haul in water for me. It's a long walk from the end of the highway to the greeters and beyond with all your gear on your back. The estimate of $2,000 is for two of us driving from New York this year. I also like to create and bring lots of gifts and am planning on constructing another art installation for our camp. Nothing fancy or even that amazing, but the last one waiting out in the garage to return home still cost $200 or so by the time all's said and done. We could probably cut down the costs some more but the burn is about it these days besides work and raising kiddo. At the moment a ticket is looking more elusive than ever.

Not sure if I'll end up applying for low income or just keep the faith and try to run down a ticket another way. The poorer than thou arguments sadly sound a lot like all the burnier than thou talk that's swarming harder than ever with ticketocalypse 2.0. If your life sucks change it. The point of this wasn't to compare, just to see what people thought. We were willing to throw the tickets on a credit card and pay it off over the next 12 months, but theme camps are more important so that's out the window as well. Wish I could just buy one of the last few tickets in July like the last two years, but those days are over. Just hoping we make it. Good luck on your searching, hope to see you all out there. I'll be the one in red knee highs. Stop me for a hug and a sticker.

ps ~ the poverty line for a family of 3 is $18,310 according to google. We're under there. Sorry we're not as broke as some.

[tattoogoddess]

We were willing to throw the tickets on a credit card and pay it off over the next 12 months,

That right there is where you are thinking wrong. If you are in poverty you should not be using a credit card. That is what gets you in the biggest debt. Think if you only payed cash or debit for everything. What you could use that interest money for, I am a big Dave Ramsey supporter and that is one thing he tells you in order to get out of debt and have more for your family their is only 3 things you should ever use credit for. House, Car ( you really should try not to) and college (but you should be putting away money for your children's college once yours is paid off)

I am very anti credit card my self. If you don't have the cash in hand, you can't afford to get it and shouldn't be. You spend more money if you have a credit card then you do if you do not. It is like magic money!
". A study of credit card use at McDonald’s found that people spent 47% more when using credit instead of cash. This is money you could have saved!"

http://www.daveramsey.com/new/baby-steps/
http://www.daveramsey.com/company/faq/


And yes I am paying for this trip all in cash cause I do not own a Credit Card other then my Debit Card from the bank.


Also why do you need to buy gifts? Is there not something you can give as you self? I do hair,makeup and reflexoligy for a living. I will be offering my skills while I am there. Free and helpful.

Car? Why not take amtrak? Is is much cheaper and you can take alot of bags.

I make less then both of you, have 30k in student loan debt and medical debt about in the 10k range. But I am finding ways to do this burn cost effective that is no where close to $1000 or even $2000. For 2 people It should not be much more then 1.Maybe $100 with no ticket and then $490 if you are buying another. You are sharing a tent all all that. The only person only need extra water and food. See what I am saying? I don't get why you are making this trip so expensive when you are yes under the poverty level but things in your "needs" list can clearly be cut to save money.

[theCryptofishist]

ps ~ the poverty line for a family of 3 is $18,310 according to google. We're under there. Sorry we're not as broke as some.

Don't ever apologize to me about that. Poverty is a horrible way to live. Besides, the "poverty level" isn't a particularly well worked out concept. Apparently, some woman in the forties chose the metric of three times the cost of food, simply so there would be a metric. In the intervening years, food costs to cost of living has gone down, so if we accepted this measure--and we only have because no one's ever bothered to really think it through--then the "actual" poverty level would be 1.333 x 18,310.

[laffingblonde]

\Car? Why not take amtrak? Is is much cheaper and you can take alot of bags.

I make less then both of you, have 30k in student loan debt and medical debt about in the 10k range. But I am finding ways to do this burn cost effective that is no where close to $1000 or even $2000. For 2 people It should not be much more then 1.Maybe $100 with no ticket and then $490 if you are buying another. You are sharing a tent all all that. The only person only need extra water and food. See what I am saying? I don't get why you are making this trip so expensive when you are yes under the poverty level but things in your "needs" list can clearly be cut to save money.

The amount of inferences you drew out of a few paragraphs is rather staggering. It's not about making the trip expensive. It's about doing what we can to provide things to the community rather than just being as cheap as possible. We spend the money to bring what we feel others will need as well as ourselves. We drive a car to pick someone else up and help their trip. Amtrak isn't going to get our art out there. We don't buy a lot of cheap crap to give away, we purchase extra essentials a lot of first timers don't know to bring. We bring extra food to feed whoever we find passed out in our camp in the morning. Any other gifts are made ourselves. I do give a lot of intangibles away just like you dear. Free therapy is abounding. Walking someone cold and tired home through the darkened maze of streets because they're lost is time well spent.

The amount of emotion swirling around all of this is unfortunate. Hopefully the borg gives tickets to people who deserve them. You've thoroughly convinced me not to beg poor. You're broker and burnier than me. I'll leave you to it while I go out again today and look for a better job rather than listing off every dollar of my debts and how my boss is ripping me off daily. Try shutting off eplaya and doing something nice for a stranger today. It will do a lot more in getting you to black rock than telling everyone else why you deserve it.

[incubus_pantomime]

Is it weird that I'm really excited about filling out the low income ticket application today? I'm ready to plead my case and wait for the BMOrg to decide whether or not Burning Man will be in the cards for me. I hope my positivity, daily mantras, and calm waiting for the ticket program that I feel I was qualified for pays off! Good luck to everyone else who waited for the LIT program! I think those awarded should get together and celebrate on the playa!

[Stephendragonfly]

@IP
I agree, Hopefully we can meet in the dust.

However I am worried that the LIT program will be flooded this year with people who didn't get their tickets in the Lotto and are now desperate enough to try anything to get in. I cannot blame people for feeling this way since many of the peeps who did get tickets have admitted that they gamed the system. Frustrating year for everyone.

[theCryptofishist]

I wouldn't be excited. I'm something of a procrastinator and selling myself makes my skin fit uncomfortably. That being said, it take all kinds to make the world go round, or, more to the point, make the event happen. So, good luck to you, regardless of outcome, I hope you do yourself proud.

[VultureChow]

If my response seemed defensive, it because it was. If "they" really are reading these boards and people are trying to say that 13,000 a year is absolutely NOT low income frankly upsets me. It's a low income ticket not just a no income one, and I really hope the person who asked that question above still applies. (My explanation to the oragnization will be different, promise)

One of the things that breaks my heart--or at least bends it hard--about the low-income discussions is seeing how much people hate the poor. If you're poor you should never have any fun, or vacation, or any break in the utter misery of your daily routine of eating your cold can of spam and applying for 83 minimum wage jobs.
It gets pretty mean spirited...

I don't think its so much hatred for the poor, but rather concern that treating BM like a necessity could keep them poor. I'm very fortunate that I can afford to go to BM without borrowing or applying for a low income ticket. But I'm not so well off that I could say... go to Ibiza. So I don't. If Ibiza's important enough for me, I skip vacations for a few years so I can go. Or I go someplace else that's cheaper and fun. Some of the most refreshing and pleasant vacations have been simple long weekends within driving distance in off-peak times.

Low income tickets are subsidized tickets. The rest of the community is paying more so that others can go. One doesn't don't have to go every year. Maybe that would be a good part of the LI program. You are only eligible every other year.

[Trishntek]

When my kids were small and I was crawling through culverts to justify my existence, there were many times we had to ration the toilet paper 'til the end of the month. Many of the posts here down play the $80 difference between tier 1 and low income tickets. $80 is a lot of money to someone who has to ration toilet paper.

Our unique experiences, conditions and means of living are so diverse, I do not know how anyone can say what exactly "justifies" a low income ticket. To some, $80 is a few minutes of labor; to others, it's a week's wages.

I find it admirable when someone considering applying for low income status obviously wants to participate! To bring an offering of art, labor, project or idea to the playa is a precious thing. The perception of those who enjoy the benefits of these precious things do not always appreciate the possibility that the creator had to sacrifice 5 sheets of toilet paper each day of the year for the sake of that precious thing.

There is a parable in the Bible talking about the Widow's Mite. A mite was something like a penny these days and it was all the widow had. She gave it away at the ridicule of others who said,"That is not even worth giving"(paraphrasing here). But she gave everything she had while others, who were giving gold coins, were actually giving a small part of their great riches. The point is, who is really sacrificing the most for the sake of the community?

[lucky420]

I've been watching this thread for a bit now. I put in for 2 tickets for the lottery (for my son and I) and my daughter put in for 1 ticket for herself. Well neither of us won tickets. I work for a non-profit and really don't make a whole lot of moola. But I have saved and worked extra hours to be able to purchase tickets for all 3 of us.

Now having said that, my son is a college student who works part time and lives on his own. My daughter works part-time bartending/barista and makes min wage+tips but she lives with me so her living expenses are not much at all. So do I tell my son to sign up for low income ticket? He is low income but lives in Reno so travel expenses to the burn are not much for him.

I have thought about this for quite a bit leading up to today. What to do, what to do?

In the end, no he will not be applying for a low income ticket. I still have the ticket money set aside and will keep it there until the opportunity comes up to purchase tickets. We realize that we might just not make it this year and both my kids are really okay with that. Me on the other hand will probably have a little harder time with it, but in the end I am very good at letting things roll off my shoulders. There are other amazing things out there in the world to try and there's always next year too (I heard 2013 will be way better). My kids also realize I may be heading up to the playa solo if I can only score I ticket. They know it kind of means a lot to me and i am a little obsessed.

So good luck to all who are entering for a low income ticket. I am counting on seeing you on la playa come August...

p.s. I think that more tickets will come available after June and living in/close to Reno I may have a chance to score tickets easier then.

[Simon of the Playa]

having to choose between food, cigarettes, drugs or a ticket.


food loses.


thats low income.


i may hang out with princes, but after i pay my rent today i will be back to zero again, and a pauper.

[FIGJAM]

A prince and a popper?

[H.G.Crosby]

yeah, but there isnt the same money in "popping" people these days.


nowadays, kids will kill just for kicks.


whatever happened to Professionalism, and Pride in one's work?

[theCryptofishist]

Thank you, Trishntek, and Lucky.
I think that as long as we don't talk about the actual experience of poverty, it will be easy to ignore the needs of the poor. And I think it can be a risk. My experiences are less intense, but I first heard of Burningman in the mid-90s, and I didn't go until 2002. Even then we were poor, and it was wretched. Partly because my dear Scott was kinda a sad-sack...
Anyway, I'm still not ready to put that stuff out there on the board...

[Simon of the Playa]

i wear my Poverty as a Badge of Honor.


i was once a millionaire.


i'm much happier now.


so you tell me, what is Rich and What is Poor?


i am far wealthier than the miserable schmuck who has all the money in the world, but nobody loves him.


i am rich beyond my wildest dreams.


i guess that means i don't qualify, at least by my standards.


and fishy, i can only surmise, but i bet life with scott even under "impoverished" conditions was wonderful, and Rich, in it's own way.

Im not ashamed to say i dont have a bank account or a credit card...I have spent my last dollar a thousand times or more.

i am only ashamed that it took me so long to realize that Money does not buy happiness...i was pretty stupid for a long time.

[tattoogoddess]

I just did my LI app. I was prob way to honest. They wanted money expenses. I put my monthly ciggs usage in there. Hey it all adds up. Good luck to everyone who is trying.

[theCryptofishist]

Considering Larry smokes like a chimney...

[tattoogoddess]

I thought he has been MIA all this year. You think he will be on the panel reviewing them?

[theCryptofishist]

No.

[incubus_pantomime]

i wear my Poverty as a Badge of Honor.


i was once a millionaire.


i'm much happier now.


so you tell me, what is Rich and What is Poor?


i am far wealthier than the miserable schmuck who has all the money in the world, but nobody loves him.


i am rich beyond my wildest dreams.


i guess that means i don't qualify, at least by my standards.


and fishy, i can only surmise, but i bet life with scott even under "impoverished" conditions was wonderful, and Rich, in it's own way.

Im not ashamed to say i dont have a bank account or a credit card...I have spent my last dollar a thousand times or more.

i am only ashamed that it took me so long to realize that Money does not buy happiness...i was pretty stupid for a long time.

Well said!

Just submitted my LIT application. Now to wait. GOOD LUCK EVERYONE!