Harrassed at gate for bringing child with no ID

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Papa Bear
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Post by Papa Bear » Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:18 am

Ivy wrote:However, Bob has rendered this whole discussion moot.
Er... not entirely. There's still action to be taken.

The org should be made aware (yes, that means *I'll* make it happen) that the "proof of age" requirement was left off of the ticket information page. The quote Bob found does not appear to be on a "year-specific" part of the site, but in any case ensuring the information is consistent across the site and well-publicized will help avoid confusion and unpleasant surprises next year.

At the same time, even though this means the gate worker had justification to ask for ID, his overall behavior was still inappropriate for resolving the situation. Ridge has every right to express concern to the appropriate supervisors about the way things went down (and has already indicated she'll do so).

As for the rest of the discussion, i.e. whether or not one person would or should regularly carry ID for a child, or whether another ought to be tossing assumptions around... by all means, let's put that one to bed. I smell an unnecessary flamewar brewing, let's put it out before it starts, eh?

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Post by Dustdevil » Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:30 am

It is time to let this thread sink. It has been corrupted by good information and common sense.
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Post by Papa Bear » Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:36 am

AntiM wrote:I never thought of ID as an infringement of my freedoms. Wearing a burkha and having a shopping chaperone in Saudia Arabia, THAT was an infringement of freedom.
In the case of the government requiring an ID, it would be an infringement. Whether or not that does or should bother you is an entirely different discussion (which, vainly fighting thread drift even as I contribute to it, probably belongs over in "General Discussion").
it is odd that parents are resistant to what I'd consider emergency information on a trip.
It's easy enough for a parent or child to carry information about name, address, parents' names, medical info, etcetera without it being in the form of official government ID.

And though I don't have kids myself, I can also see why a parent might not want his/her child to carry personally identifying information on a piece of paper that might get dropped or fall into the hands of someone with ill intent.

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Post by AntiM » Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:55 am

I agree, information can be dangerous, that's why if you get ID for your kid, you should also teach your child how the ID should be kept and when it would be appropriate to use it.

I DO disagree with mandatory government ID for all citizens, i.e. the national ID card idea. However, mine was military ID, either as a military dependent or active duty myself. Came with the access to federal benefits, but I useally thought of it as a base pass. I still have one as the dependent of a retiree. Perhaps the context rather than the actual identification doesn't bother me as someone who is used to the military mindset of tagging everything for inventory. (that was humor, laugh darn you!)

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Post by Hotspur » Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:59 pm

While I don't want to defend a rude gatestaffer, and it sounds like he handled the situation poorly, I don't think it's wrong of them to expect an ID.

It's not easy to tell how old a kid is. And yes, people are trying to scam their way into burning man all the time. (Last year, the gate woman who searched my car told me that she'd personally caught four stowaways already!) Just like I wouldn't assume that my child could get a children's rate ticket at a movie if she was close to the cut off age, I wouldn't assume that I can get her a $200 ticket for free.

None of this excuses the gate staffer from being rude. But asking to see an ID is pretty standard behavior for getting age-based price breaks, so I can't sympathize with getting up-in-arms about their decision to ask for one. (It would be nice for them to remind people of this on the web site, but it's hardly such an extreme demand that they're under an obligation to.)

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Post by Stormy » Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:17 pm

Another vote for, I think this thread should have died. So why am I posting now? Been offline due to work overload, I'm a teacher. Many schools now issue IDs when class pictures are printed up. BM offering free tickets worth hundreds of dollar. Hmmm, why would they be so rude as to ask for proof of age?

As for DPW, many of them do work at the Gate. They get free room and board before the event and after the event, but no meals during the event. Though I hear they had to bunk in overcrowded motel rooms and get bussed onto the playa to work, prison camp style. Kind of difficult to pack food for the event if you get there weeks in advance and have to pack everything needed for several weeks. So if they work another during the event, they can get some meals. As for being drunk on the job, I didn't notice that all the donated beer in the booty box disappeared after a whole crew of them worked a shift together. Who knows?

I've tried working Gate for two years, and I've had enough. You get grief for being too tough and grief for not being tough enough. Nothing like working hard while everyone is having fun and then not being able to sleep for a few hours so you can stand up the next day for 6 or more hours in the sun. For all the griping that goes on about the Gate, I say just let everyone in without a check and if we get fined by BLM, we'll all just have to suck up the higher ticket prices. And please by all means, people bring all your kids and demand they get in free.
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Post by Papa Bear » Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:39 pm

Again, just to clarify and follow up...

Neither Ridge (the original poster) nor I (the eyewitness) are arguing that asking for ID is either rude or unreasonable. It's quite reasonable; all the moreso considering the "kids at burning man" page tells parents to be prepared to show proof of age, and gives an age cutoff (under 12) matching the one the gate staffer claimed.

At the same time, the main tickets page had conflicting/missing information, indicating a different age cutoff (under 13) and making no mention of a need for ID. Since Ridge has brought her daughter for several years, has never previously needed an ID for her, and didn't see such a requirement listed on the tickets page she looked at, it's not really unreasonable for her to have believed she didn't need one.

The issue here was how to deal with inappropriate behavior by the gate staffer, and that's what Ridge asked for advice about. She got it, and is pursuing the issue through the appropriate channels.

As for the discrepancy on the website, I've already reported it to the web site team and have received confirmation that they will lfind out what the policy really is and update the information on the site accordingly.

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Post by unjonharley » Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:07 am

Stormy, Don't give up on the gate. I had a little trouble getting in this year. Just a matter of misformation. We pulled out of line and got evry thing fixed up. It took about an hour. In the mean time my son (first year) was out talking with people. When I was ready to go, he was "all"! ready to go. All we did was take it easy and have a good time. Then the greeters made him make dust angles. I think he was ready to come back in 05 right then.
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Post by Badger » Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:24 am

I'd encourage Stormy to do what she needs to do. I witnessed enough bad attitude tossed their way the times I had to head up there. I personally don't think I could do it for more than a shift before I went ballastic. But then, that probably doesn't surprise anyone here.
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Post by robbidobbs » Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:52 am

I enjoyed the FUCK out of working Gate for 3 years. It's the Participants' first BM contact, and I had a great time going thru their belongings looking for stowaways. I made it into a game: you hide? I seek!

As for DPW being drunk on the job, well that's just plain silly. YOU try to pull down the kind of hours we do, and not get a bit loud and obnoxious at the pleebs.

I'd work Gate again if asked, but I totally understand what Stormy's saying about being too nice for some and not nice enough for others. Whatever. I'll just keep talking about shit, keeping my eyes/ears peeled for moop-factories and other bad stuff, and helping participants.

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Post by geekster » Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:08 am

Personally, I think harrassment is getting off easy. Next year I think people should be executed for bringing a child with no ID. Zip-tie them to the trash fence and fling broken Windows(tm) CDROMs at them until dead. Leave them there as an example to others. You wont have to deal with threads like this after, either.

Hehe, the org page should change to:

Children under 13 with VALID ID are free. Just put it right in there.
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Post by TheJudge » Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:44 am

hipifish wrote:NO WHERE does it say BTW~ you may encounter a totally fuckeredupasshole at the gate, so be sure and bring a birth certificate.

Perhaps it should. 8)

I've worked the gate for many years and still love it.

...Then again, I have been known to be somewhat Sadomasochistic.
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Post by Bob » Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:50 am

I suppose we should be flattered that DPW (aka Detroit Pistons c.'89 Wannabees) gets this sort of gloss but, Shirley, Gate is legendary in its own way.
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Post by actiongrl » Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:59 am

Anyone who is a staff member with authority enough to call themselves a supervisor will be wearing a laminate (especially at the Gate, where everyone has one). Ask for their name. Even their playa name will work. It's really the only way to help make sure they don't do it again. Folks sure as hell aren't trained to be jerks, 'round these parts.

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Post by stuart » Fri Sep 24, 2004 11:18 am

to those of you who tried to help me out at gate, you know who you are, thanks so very much. Even though it did not quite work out it worked out anyhow.


A word to all of you. I think I got gate love simply because I showed them respect , told them I absolutely understood if they could not help me and that I did not hold it against them. I think that if I had bitched and moaned at them for doing what they were tasked to do I would have been sitting by the road for the better part of 2 days.

As for the guy who told us to simply roll over the rubber cone cuz it would not harm our vehicle. I hope you woke up in a cold sweat a few times reliving the vision of 'just a fucking rubber cone' freakishly wrapping itself around and then ripping off our exhaust.
call me baby

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Post by robbidobbs » Fri Sep 24, 2004 11:33 am

stuart wrote:As for the guy who told us to simply roll over the rubber cone cuz it would not harm our vehicle. I hope you woke up in a cold sweat a few times reliving the vision of 'just a fucking rubber cone' freakishly wrapping itself around and then ripping off our exhaust.
OH FUCK!

Definitely an "Oh Fuck!" moment.

Sorry to hear about that one, Stuart.
:roll: Another happy day on the Playa. You are taking it very well, in your usual "well grounded with style" way.
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Post by Rian Jackson » Fri Sep 24, 2004 11:34 am

PurpleKoosh wrote: and proof of both birth date and legal residence.
*chuckle*
i read this as 'proof of birth'
i thought that would be self evident.
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Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Sep 24, 2004 11:38 am

Rian Jackson wrote: i read this as 'proof of birth'
i thought that would be self evident.
Belly-button only. Otherwise, you could have hatched.

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Post by Simply Joel » Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:12 pm

AntiM wrote:Wow, this seems really bizarre ... I was raised as a navy brat and have had picture ID since the age of 8. That means I've been carrying government ID for nearly four decades (shut up); I must be conditioned into thinking it is normal.
it is normal, from my perspective, to be able to identify yourself with "goverment issued" identification... hell, why do you get an SSN before you leave the hospital as a newborn...
AntiM wrote:I never thought of ID as an infringement of my freedoms. Wearing a burkha and having a shopping chaperone in Saudia Arabia, THAT was an infringement of freedom. (Cheap, hilarious dad offered to sell me to the chicken vendor for $20k. Not funny.)
from where i am sitting, it is kind of amusing though.

uh oh, thread drift

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Post by spectabillis » Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:21 pm

Papa Bear wrote:Again, just to clarify and follow up...

Neither Ridge (the original poster) nor I (the eyewitness) are arguing that asking for ID is either rude or unreasonable. It's quite reasonable; all the moreso considering the "kids at burning man" page tells parents to be prepared to show proof of age, and gives an age cutoff (under 12) matching the one the gate staffer claimed.

At the same time, the main tickets page had conflicting/missing information, indicating a different age cutoff (under 13) and making no mention of a need for ID. Since Ridge has brought her daughter for several years, has never previously needed an ID for her, and didn't see such a requirement listed on the tickets page she looked at, it's not really unreasonable for her to have believed she didn't need one.

The issue here was how to deal with inappropriate behavior by the gate staffer, and that's what Ridge asked for advice about. She got it, and is pursuing the issue through the appropriate channels.

As for the discrepancy on the website, I've already reported it to the web site team and have received confirmation that they will lfind out what the policy really is and update the information on the site accordingly.
You have great patience sir, and remarkably do not rise to inflamatory questions and remarks - replying with clear and concise info in your statements.

God I wish more people would pay attention to those personal details...

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Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:26 pm

Simply Joel wrote: it is normal, from my perspective, to be able to identify yourself with "goverment issued" identification... hell, why do you get an SSN before you leave the hospital as a newborn...
So your parents can put it on their tax return when they claim you as a dependent.

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Post by Hotspur » Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:28 pm

FWIW (agian, not defending the rude gatestaffer who's responsible for the original psoter's experience) I've always had very positive experiences with gatestaff.

This year, the guy who took our tickets said, "Just so you know, I'm gate staff, not greeter. It's my job to look for stowaways." No apologies, just directness. He got us through quickly and painlessly.

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Post by TheJudge » Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:41 pm

Hotspur wrote: This year, the guy who took our tickets said, "Just so you know, I'm gate staff, not greeter. It's my job to look for stowaways." No apologies, just directness. He got us through quickly and painlessly.
And that's exactly what we try to do with everyone. Glad your experience wasnt a hassle.
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Post by MusicVixen » Tue Oct 05, 2004 4:55 pm

I worked Gate for the first time this year and had a blast. I worked the graveyard shift. The people on that shift rocked!!! During both shifts I worked we were often mistaken for the greeters. I also had a day shift I was supposed to work but was injured on rebar the afternoon before. I look forward to Gate in 05...if they'll have me.
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Post by uBeRpLaYa » Tue Oct 05, 2004 5:10 pm

sOuNdS LiKe tHe sAmE *%sHoLe tHaT cAmE uP bEhInD mE aS oUr cAr wAs bEiNg sEaRcHeD aNd gRaBbEd mY tIts. gOt a wIcKeD pUnCh tO tHe cRoTcH fOr hIs eFfOrT

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Post by TheJudge » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:50 am

uBeRpLaYa wrote:sOuNdS LiKe tHe sAmE *%sHoLe tHaT cAmE uP bEhInD mE aS oUr cAr wAs bEiNg sEaRcHeD aNd gRaBbEd mY tIts. gOt a wIcKeD pUnCh tO tHe cRoTcH fOr hIs eFfOrT

Did you get his name? That would have been much more useful than a punch to the crotch. We could have held him down for you.

Then again, your story may just be bullshit.
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Post by hipifish » Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:16 pm

Greetings again fellow Burners,
I wanted to give those of you who took the time to comment an update on the status of the gate staffer gone mad.

I emailed Spiderman last week at the suggestion of Badger. I was very pleased to see a response in extremely short order regarding my initial email. It was asked of me to give further info, such as a name or further details in order to handle the situation appropriately. Unfortunately, I did not get a name (huge error on my part) and consequently just gave a physical description of the individual in question. Even if the person is never tracked down or reprimanded, I am grateful for the opportunity to bring a little light to an issue which might have greater impact for parents attending bm in the future. Thanks for all the comments, suggestions and entertaining bits of information which came up in the thread.

Dustydustydreams~
Ridge

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Post by unjonharley » Wed Oct 06, 2004 5:16 pm

Hipfish wrote <snip>

//\\
After almost two months this still owns your mind. You realy should get a life. In other words, get off the cross already
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Bob
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Post by Bob » Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:15 pm

Reprimanded?

Reprimanded????

Next time just bring an aluminum baseball bat and just whack him in the shins if he looks at you funny.

That's what you want, right? Vengeance? Revenge? Vendeta? Comeupance?

Fucking theme campers. Bite my crank.
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Post by Bob » Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:09 pm

I meant "vendetta", of course.

Gawd, I am so sick of fucking theme campers.

Too much noise. Too many rude people. Too many cameras. Cruel BMorg didn't UPS my $15 bicycle back to me. Yahoos. Frat girls. Sorority boys. Noisy neighbors. Sullen neighbors. Straight neighbors. Hippie neighbors. Too depressed to do my art. Too blitzed to do anything but serve liquor to minors. DPW. Rangers. Organizers. The cafe. The ice. The weather. The playa. The eplaya. The e.

What's worse is -- this was the WORST THEME CAMP YEAR EVER!!!

You really sucked, you know.

The theme camp meme equals nothing but tourist trap.

Small wonder you complain.
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